No dual format players with ALL ADVANCED AUDIO will ever come - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 13 Old 09-13-2007, 06:10 AM - Thread Starter
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Since the switch from Paramount and Dreamworks to HD-DVD exclusive I m a dual format guy. I think both formats will exist. So....... eventually I ll be looking for a dual format player like the Samsung 5000 or new LG 200 announced. I m very active in the dual format player section on this forum and both players will probably not be able to DECODE (ONLY passthrough as bitstream and than you re not good to go with the Denon!!) DTS-MA (DTS-HD MASTER, NOT DTS-HR!). I beginning to think that there will never be a player that can really DECODE all the advanced audio formats. Be doing this we (people like me) will be forced to buy a new receiver WITH all the DECODERS on-board (like the new, just announced, Denons). So, is it smart to sell my Denon now while he s still worth a lot or do you guys think that it is just a matter of time before dual format player will come on the market which have ALL the advanced codecs ON-BOARD?
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post #2 of 13 Old 09-14-2007, 04:59 AM
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Maybe, or maybe not.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...&postcount=974

Still some uncertain issues, but it looks promising.
I read that as DTS-MA is coming later but maybe not at launch.
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post #3 of 13 Old 09-14-2007, 06:35 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bootman_head_fi View Post

Maybe, or maybe not.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...&postcount=974

Still some uncertain issues, but it looks promising.
I read that as DTS-MA is coming later but maybe not at launch.

unfortunately, the spec list says nothing about whether it will DECODE it or only pass it as bitstream.
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post #4 of 13 Old 09-14-2007, 07:56 AM
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I think you guys worry too much about all of these new codecs and audio formats. With the quality of most of today's codecs, lossless or otherwise, the mastering influences the overall sound much more than the codec itself. That's not to say that there isn't improvement. But I would never consider the any of these audio formats, or the lack thereof a 'deal breaker'. And if the last ten years is any indication, there will always be newer and better. So you will never have player or pre-amp that does it all.

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post #5 of 13 Old 09-14-2007, 07:58 AM
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Never say ever.
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post #6 of 13 Old 09-14-2007, 08:27 AM
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The guy kjack made a post in the Blu ray software forum, about Sigma's new chip. It seems like it will do everything. But I think it is only for Blu-ray

Blu ray is the best Blah, blah, blah.
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post #7 of 13 Old 10-12-2007, 12:10 PM
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I too keep waiting to pull the trigger on a dual format player because every one that comes out seems to leave out at least one feature I really want.

if it's not being fully compliant with HD DVD interactivity, it's not being BR 1.1 capable. if it can output DTS-MA, it doesn't have analog outs or internal decoding. AHHHH!

here's what I want:

Fully HD DVD compatible
Fully BR 2.0 specced
Support for both formats' lossless audio DECODING in the player
analog outs

that's it. how hard can it be?

(I supposed I could live with decoded PCM going out over HDMI but all the others stand )
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post #8 of 13 Old 10-12-2007, 08:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rutgar View Post

I think you guys worry too much about all of these new codecs and audio formats. With the quality of most of today's codecs, lossless or otherwise, the mastering influences the overall sound much more than the codec itself. That's not to say that there isn't improvement. But I would never consider the any of these audio formats, or the lack thereof a 'deal breaker'. And if the last ten years is any indication, there will always be newer and better. So you will never have player or pre-amp that does it all.

Wise words indeed.

Stace
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post #9 of 13 Old 10-12-2007, 09:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rutgar View Post

I think you guys worry too much about all of these new codecs and audio formats. With the quality of most of today's codecs, lossless or otherwise, the mastering influences the overall sound much more than the codec itself. That's not to say that there isn't improvement. But I would never consider the any of these audio formats, or the lack thereof a 'deal breaker'. And if the last ten years is any indication, there will always be newer and better. So you will never have player or pre-amp that does it all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sdlehman View Post

Wise words indeed.

Stace



+2
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post #10 of 13 Old 10-13-2007, 05:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rutgar View Post

I think you guys worry too much about all of these new codecs and audio formats. With the quality of most of today's codecs, lossless or otherwise, the mastering influences the overall sound much more than the codec itself. That's not to say that there isn't improvement. But I would never consider the any of these audio formats, or the lack thereof a 'deal breaker'. And if the last ten years is any indication, there will always be newer and better. So you will never have player or pre-amp that does it all.

I disagree - not on the principle of what you've said - but in practice. If my only two audio choices on a disc are a regular 5.1 Dolby Digital track and a 7.1 DTS-HD Master Audio track, I sure as hell want to be able to hear the 7.1 DTS-HD Master Audio track in its full glory!

I completely agree that the mastering makes the most difference. I'm sure it's completely possible that we may come across a 5.1 DD+ track that sounds better than a 7.1 TrueHD track, simply because the 5.1 DD+ track was better mastered than the 7.1 TrueHD track.

But my point is that what we often get is one track that is on the disc for the sake of "compatibility" (like a regular DD track) and then one "full-blown" audio track. That "full-blown" track may be TrueHD, it may be DTS-HD High Resolution, DTS-HD Master Audio, uncompressed LPCM or even just DD+. It may be 5.1 just like the "compatibility" regular DD track, but it might also be 6.1 or 7.1.

Regardless, when I buy a disc, I want to be POSITIVE that I'll be able to listen to the best audio track that is offered on the disc. If it were a case where there are DD+, TrueHD, DTS-HD High Resolution and DTS-HD Master Audio tracks on every disc, then yes, I would agree that worrying about not having one out of those formats would be silly. But when my only choice on a particular disc is either 5.1 regular DD or 7.1 DTS-HD Master Audio, I would say that not being able to hear the DTS-HD MA track and being limited solely to the DD track is absolutely a Deal Breaker!

Jon
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post #11 of 13 Old 10-13-2007, 05:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lateralis View Post

here's what I want:

Fully HD DVD compatible
Fully BR 2.0 specced
Support for both formats' lossless audio DECODING in the player
analog outs

that's it. how hard can it be?

(I supposed I could live with decoded PCM going out over HDMI but all the others stand )

I wanted to second this and also add:

While the players themselves seem to be constantly trying to "catch up" to their own potential (although to be fair, HD-DVD has been substantially better in this regard) a lot of the problem is with the software.

Even if we had a player that could deliver EVERYTHING possible with both formats, it still won't put a lossless audio track on the disc or internet content or cool interactive features. All of that is up to the studios and I'm just not seeing the level of effort or consistency from them that I really want.

When I think of a truly "next generation" movie format to replace DVDs, just having a better picture isn't enough. I want better audio too. I want a better disc navigation experience. And I want to be able to do things that are not possible with DVD.

Both camps obviously knew this since they've made all of those desires possible, but for one reason or another, we're just not getting it all yet - at least not consistently.

I'll be honest, I was disappointed to only see a DD+ audio track on the HD-DVD Transformers release. Yes, it still sounds great, but come on! This is a blockbuster summer title! Give us the full TrueHD! Actually, scratch that - I want 7.1 TrueHD! Is there really a better kind of example for the type of movie that should receive that level of audio? Like I said above, I could live with 5.1 for most movies. But for "event" movies like Transformers? I want the full 7.1 and no mistake!

I've been considerably more disappointed to see Blu-ray titles with nothing but a regular 5.1 DD audio track on them. At least HD-DVD has made DD+ the defacto standard on that format.

And whether we blame HDi vs. BD-Java, the lack of BD profile 1.1 or BD-Live players or BD+ protection or whatever - I'm disappointed with the lack of better disc navigation and cool features that just aren't possible on DVD. Blu-ray has disappointed me more than HD-DVD in this department and that usually goes hand in hand with the reasons I just listed. But the fact is that Blu-ray is perfectly capable of delivering what I want, it's just being held back for some reason.

Getting the hardware side essentially "out of the way" is the first step. Having the hardware limit things like PIP commentaries, cool features not possible on DVD or internet connectivity is frankly just shameful and stupid. But with those roadblocks out of the way, it's still up to the studios to deliver.

I've foreseen more problems for Blu-ray on this front than HD-DVD. And that's simply because studios want to make sure that their discs will play on every Blu-ray player out there. That stinks because it means they're limited by the lowest common denominator. And while they can stick the "some features of this disc may not be compatible with your player" disclaimer all over the case, the simple fact is that there is less inclination to put features on a disc when you know that a whole bunch of people out there won't be able to access them because of the limitations of their player!

HD-DVD came out with internet connections, HDi interactivity and navigation, PIP, 5.1 DD+ and 5.1 TrueHD decoding in every player more or less right out of the gate (we'll forget about the few months wait for 5.1 TrueHD decoding since it was a simple firmware update and not a hardware limitation). Any studio can know for sure that every HD-DVD player out there can support these features, so the incentive is there to include them.

None of that matters in the face of Blu-ray's exclusive support from several major studios, but that only serves to further illustrate how copy-protection was a bigger issue to some studios than delivering a compelling new format.

Jon
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post #12 of 13 Old 10-13-2007, 07:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan Teller View Post

I disagree

Regardless, when I buy a disc, I want to be POSITIVE that I'll be able to listen to the best audio track that is offered on the disc. If it were a case where there are DD+, TrueHD, DTS-HD High Resolution and DTS-HD Master Audio tracks on every disc, then yes, I would agree that worrying about not having one out of those formats would be silly. But when my only choice on a particular disc is either 5.1 regular DD or 7.1 DTS-HD Master Audio, I would say that not being able to hear the DTS-HD MA track and being limited solely to the DD track is absolutely a Deal Breaker!

Jon

Exactly. Many DVDs have had mistakes in the audio or differences between the Dolby and DTS tracks. Why would this change? The point is not that hardware is more important than the guy making the disc, it's that we shouldn't be left out when both gang up on us.
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post #13 of 13 Old 10-13-2007, 08:10 AM
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You know, I was an early adopter of DVD Video, DVD Audio, SACD and have always had decent audio and video equipment such as Pioneer plasma, B&K amp with (new)Denon 2808 as pre-amp, B&W mid level speakers, etc. This is just too ridiculous. Now we're waiting for what shoud be all put together on the hardware and software. When it comes out as we want it, it'll be $1200. In the past polls, I always indicated I would wait for a universal player. But now, I really am going to wait a long time--maybe never. I'm absolutely disgusted and satisfied with the possibility of the new OPPO which will upconvert(yes I know it's not HD) and pass DSD and DVD audio via HDMI directly to my Denon 2808 for decoding. All this for less than $200. I'm listening to David Gilmore Live from Royal Albert Hall in DD now and you know, it's pretty darn good. I hope the BR an HD DVD thing works out, but I'm off the bandwagon.

Tony B
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