First Review of Samsung BD-UP5000 - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 250 Old 10-13-2007, 03:16 PM
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Originally Posted by drhankz View Post

IT IS ONLY in their printed Catalog Mailed out!

Turns out I had this catalog in my mail, since I am a prior Crutchfield customer. I called to place my order and the sales rep needed the code by the UPC barcode on the back page (Letter "H" after the bar code). Gave him that and he found the item in his copy of the catalog, but then refused to take an order, giving the excuse that Samsung had delayed shipment. I even directly asked him "so you are refusing to take an order from your catalog", to which he responded "that's right". Last time I will ever order anything from them. No integrity. There are numerous other internet dealers that I have never had any issues with, even when I received a defective unit they promptly shipped out a replacement and paid for the return of the failed unit (a top end Velodyne sub that failed within the first thirty days of ownership).

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post #182 of 250 Old 10-13-2007, 03:58 PM
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I seriously think Crutchfield's Marketing Dept. jumped the gun on promoting this unit in their cat. I also think Samsung might have given them an overly optimistic MSRP because Crutchfield rarely ever price anything out of MSRP. From all the presses I've read, this unit well retail ~$1000 so and that $799 Crutchfield price is way below. Might be the reason why they are refusing to take your order. Their mistake is not just plainly say that it's an error and the date been pushed back but instead the CSR is comes off differently. There's another member here that went into Magnolia Best Buy to price match with the catelog and was successful in his pre-order.
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post #183 of 250 Old 10-13-2007, 03:59 PM
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They won't let you order something they don't have and don't know when they will get. I don't see a problem with that. Print catalogs are created months in advance and that catalog probably reflects the original anticipated release date of the player which was supposed to be this month. That date has been pushed back to some unknown date. Why try to order something you can't get from anyone?

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post #184 of 250 Old 10-13-2007, 04:54 PM
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I'm not that familiar with Samsung except for their TV's which seem inferior to me. I'm wondering about the quality of Samsung and if anyone can offer an informed opinion about Samsung's quality. This 5000 has all the features I'm looking for in either format but I won't compromise on quality.
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post #185 of 250 Old 10-13-2007, 05:34 PM
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Quote:


...but I won't compromise on quality.

...neither will I. Based on the fact that this will be their first attempt at HD-DVD, all of the problems reported over in the BR players thread, and the crippled analog section (which is very important to me), I am getting either an XA2 or Onkyo 805 now, and waiting for the Blu camp to get its act together (profiles, BD-j, BD+) before getting a BR player. I will see what is announced at CES in January, but I am thinking a Panasonic. I know I will pay a lot more for seperate units, but I am willing to do so for a level of quality way above Samsung.... and the fact that my AVR has only a single analog connection is solved by a $20 A/V switcher from Wally World...

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post #186 of 250 Old 10-13-2007, 09:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JazzGuyy View Post

They won't let you order something they don't have and don't know when they will get. I don't see a problem with that. Print catalogs are created months in advance and that catalog probably reflects the original anticipated release date of the player which was supposed to be this month. That date has been pushed back to some unknown date. Why try to order something you can't get from anyone?

Not saying it's a problem, just trying to understand Crutchfield's reasoning. Like I said, they probably advertised the unit based on the information they've received so far from Samsung. But I really do think they are off the mark on the $799 price unless Samsung will truly "MSRP'd" it at that level.

Why try to order something you can't get from anyone? It's just a pre-order thing some users here want. Maybe they're anticipating that it'll be a hot item and they want it in their hands before the holidays. Maybe they're ok being first and early adopter; Crutchfield afterall has a generous trial policy afterall. I'm ok with it either way: get it first or wait what the consensus is from early users. But from Gary Merson's pre-production review (which is the point of this thread), this player seems awfully promising and might be the item to get a lot of users off that fence.
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post #187 of 250 Old 10-14-2007, 11:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vader424242 View Post

...neither will I. ... and the fact that my AVR has only a single analog connection is solved by a $20 A/V switcher from Wally World...

You do realize that a chain (even an audio one) is only as good as it's weakest link.
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post #188 of 250 Old 10-14-2007, 11:48 AM
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You do realize that a chain (even an audio one) is only as good as it's weakest link.

Of course I do; which is exactly why I am hesitant to have a Samsung product (esp. one with limited audio setup options) in the same chain as Denon, Mitsubishi, etc... The audio switcher I am referring to (actually a component switcher) has been recommended by people who's equipment dwarf mine in audiophile quality (to put it mildly)...

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post #189 of 250 Old 10-14-2007, 05:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vader424242 View Post

I know I will pay a lot more for seperate units, but I am willing to do so for a level of quality way above Samsung.

Why do you keep posting in every thread about this unit with the sole purpose of trashing it before it's even out? If you don't like Samsung or their products why bother reading and posting in all the threads about the 5000?
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post #190 of 250 Old 10-14-2007, 06:34 PM
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... with the sole purpose of trashing it...

On the contrary Brent, part of me is hoping that Samsung will actually rise above it's reputation (I am following this machine, and doing my homework where other Samsung products - specifically their other Blu players - are concerned). My comments above were in response to ezjunk, who is obviously in the same boat I am; while the convenience factor of this unit is high (and I love the look of it), neither of us is willing to sacrifice quality for what could very well be a crippled product (no, I'm not saying it will be, but given the comany's other offerings it does not look good). I was ready to place my order until I found out about the half-arse analog section of the other players: not what I would expect on a higher-end piece of equipment. For those who do not care about this (they will be using HDMI, and letting their AVR do the heavy lifting), great. But for those of use who are using the analogs, and want proper audio settings, this player looks to be a major disappointment (unless they turn around, and deliver a truly great machine, which is always possible). Personally, I would love to be eating crow where this is concerned... (and my apologies if you interpreted my comments otherwise)

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post #191 of 250 Old 10-14-2007, 07:38 PM
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I can completely understand the desire to have a really good analogue output option on this unit. Heck, I'm one of those people who is still using a receiver with no HDMI inputs for the moment. So having internal decoding for ALL audio formats on BOTH HD-DVD and Blu-ray with 7.1 analogue outputs all in one unit sure makes for an attractive option!

But I do question the ultimate importance of the analogue audio section. What I mean is this: while I currently do not have HDMI inputs on my receiver, the day will almost surely come when I buy a receiver or pre/pro that does have HDMI inputs. When that day comes, I will be able to use the HDMI connection on the UP5000.

In the mean time, the UP5000 gives me the opportunity to still listen to the advanced audio formats. Something that not all HD-DVD players can do and something that Blu-ray players cannot do in full 7.1 or with DTS-HD:MA. While there's a chance that the speaker setup options for the analogue section MAY be a little gimped (and let's keep in mind that we do not know for sure - they could possibly be very good and fully featured), the fact remains that even if they are gimped, they still offer us an option that no other player does.

So to me, I see very little downside. Even if I'm limited to a 100 Hz crossover and no distance (delay) settings, I still get to listen to DD+, TrueHD and hopefully DTS-HD:HR and DTS-HD:MA, even using my "ancient" receiver that has no HDMI inputs. When I DO upgrade, I'll be able to use the HDMI connection and adjust my speakers to my heart's content.

Jon
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post #192 of 250 Old 10-14-2007, 08:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan Teller View Post

I can completely understand the desire to have a really good analogue output option on this unit. Heck, I'm one of those people who is still using a receiver with no HDMI inputs for the moment. So having internal decoding for ALL audio formats on BOTH HD-DVD and Blu-ray with 7.1 analogue outputs all in one unit sure makes for an attractive option!

But I do question the ultimate importance of the analogue audio section. What I mean is this: while I currently do not have HDMI inputs on my receiver, the day will almost surely come when I buy a receiver or pre/pro that does have HDMI inputs. When that day comes, I will be able to use the HDMI connection on the UP5000.

In the mean time, the UP5000 gives me the opportunity to still listen to the advanced audio formats. Something that not all HD-DVD players can do and something that Blu-ray players cannot do in full 7.1 or with DTS-HD:MA. While there's a chance that the speaker setup options for the analogue section MAY be a little gimped (and let's keep in mind that we do not know for sure - they could possibly be very good and fully featured), the fact remains that even if they are gimped, they still offer us an option that no other player does.

So to me, I see very little downside. Even if I'm limited to a 100 Hz crossover and no distance (delay) settings, I still get to listen to DD+, TrueHD and hopefully DTS-HD:HR and DTS-HD:MA, even using my "ancient" receiver that has no HDMI inputs. When I DO upgrade, I'll be able to use the HDMI connection and adjust my speakers to my heart's content.

Jon

Point well taken, my friend. A question, if I may. My understanding is that the use of HDMI requires a "handshake" of sorts before it will function. My concern is not only my pre-HDMI AVR (Denon 2105), but my display as well (Mitsu 65511). My video is component right now, and I don't intend to upgrade for several years (or the ICT is activated). Does the use of HDMI for audio introduce a lag (because of the "handshake") relative to the video (component = no "handshake")?

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post #193 of 250 Old 10-14-2007, 08:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vader424242 View Post

On the contrary Brent, part of me is hoping that Samsung will actually rise above it's reputation (I am following this machine, and doing my homework where other Samsung products - specifically their other Blu players - are concerned). My comments above were in response to ezjunk, who is obviously in the same boat I am; while the convenience factor of this unit is high (and I love the look of it), neither of us is willing to sacrifice quality for what could very well be a crippled product (no, I'm not saying it will be, but given the comany's other offerings it does not look good). I was ready to place my order until I found out about the half-arse analog section of the other players: not what I would expect on a higher-end piece of equipment. For those who do not care about this (they will be using HDMI, and letting their AVR do the heavy lifting), great. But for those of use who are using the analogs, and want proper audio settings, this player looks to be a major disappointment (unless they turn around, and deliver a truly great machine, which is always possible). Personally, I would love to be eating crow where this is concerned... (and my apologies if you interpreted my comments otherwise)


No problem, man. I wasn't trying to come off like a d!ck in my post and I'm glad you didn't take it that way. It just seemed like you were out to bash the 5000 and Samsung as a whole, but now I see that wasn't the case at all. I can totally see where you're coming from and hopefully we'll all be pleasantly surprised by the capabilities of this player.........if it ever comes out.
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post #194 of 250 Old 10-14-2007, 10:05 PM
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haha, are we arguing now cause we're so bored of waiting for this player?
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post #195 of 250 Old 10-14-2007, 10:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BodegaBay View Post

Not saying it's a problem, just trying to understand Crutchfield's reasoning. Like I said, they probably advertised the unit based on the information they've received so far from Samsung. But I really do think they are off the mark on the $799 price unless Samsung will truly "MSRP'd" it at that level.

Why try to order something you can't get from anyone? It's just a pre-order thing some users here want. Maybe they're anticipating that it'll be a hot item and they want it in their hands before the holidays. Maybe they're ok being first and early adopter; Crutchfield afterall has a generous trial policy afterall. I'm ok with it either way: get it first or wait what the consensus is from early users. But from Gary Merson's pre-production review (which is the point of this thread), this player seems awfully promising and might be the item to get a lot of users off that fence.

I know when I was at my local Best Buy last month that is the price they had in there system as well for this player. So I suspect they have lowered the MSRP of it.

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post #196 of 250 Old 10-14-2007, 11:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vader424242 View Post

Point well taken, my friend. A question, if I may. My understanding is that the use of HDMI requires a "handshake" of sorts before it will function. My concern is not only my pre-HDMI AVR (Denon 2105), but my display as well (Mitsu 65511). My video is component right now, and I don't intend to upgrade for several years (or the ICT is activated). Does the use of HDMI for audio introduce a lag (because of the "handshake") relative to the video (component = no "handshake")?

That's an interesting question and I can't answer it with certainty. While most of the mid and higher end receivers that have HDMI inputs and outputs offer the ability to convert a component (or even composite or S-Video) input to its HDMI output, I haven't come across very many that will take a HDMI input and convert it to a component video output. I know there are a couple out there that do though. And in that case, I would figure you should be alright. The audio and video would both be sent via HDMI from the source to the receiver. The receiver would decode the bitstream and/or apply bass management and speaker delay for the audio portion and would convert the HDMI video input to a component video output for your display.

But like I said, there are very few receivers that will convert the HDMI video to component output. So in most cases, I would think that you would have to run the HDMI from the source to the receiver for audio and then also run component video cables directly to your display. I say directly to your display because I haven't seen the option in most receivers to assign a HDMI input as the audio input for a component video input on the receiver. On most, you can assign one of the digital audio or analogue audio inputs to one of the HDMI inputs so that you can get video from the HDMI connection and audio from the digital or analogue audio input (such would be the case with a DVI source), but I haven't seen it where you could assign the HDMI input as the audio for another connection.

So with the audio going straight into the receiver via HDMI and the video going straight into the display via component, I suppose there is a chance for some audio/video mismatching in the timing. However, it is typically delay introduced into the video due to video processing that causes sync issues rather than delays introduced in the audio processing. While audio processing can be fairly complex, it usually isn't nearly as taxing as video processing.

But with something as processor intensive as DTS-HD:MA, I suppose there is a chance that such a delay could arise. Most receivers will let you delay the audio in order to allow the video processing to "catch up", but here, the problem would be the other way around.

So my guess is that the best solution would be to search for one of the few receivers that allows you to input HDMI video and audio and can convert the HDMI video to its component video output. At least with that, you know that the video and audio are arriving at the same time to the receiver. It will also be processing the video, so it should automatically use TBC as most receivers do these days.

Jon
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post #197 of 250 Old 10-15-2007, 01:42 AM
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No distance setting for the analog output? You've got to be kidding. What's the point of decoding a high rez audio format if you're going to mangle the audio by not offering distance settings?

I honestly hope Samsung corrects this before shipping the production units.

If not, I would like to thank Samsung for saving me the cost of these units as that would definately be a deal breaker for me.

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post #198 of 250 Old 10-15-2007, 05:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan Teller View Post

So my guess is that the best solution would be to search for one of the few receivers that allows you to input HDMI video and audio and can convert the HDMI video to its component video output.
Jon

SORRY - That is a VIOLATION of HDMI Copyright
protection.

Until you have a HDMI AVR receiver and HDMI TV or PJ.

Forget that HDMI exists and stick with 1970 analog technology.
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post #199 of 250 Old 10-15-2007, 08:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vader424242 View Post

Does the use of HDMI for audio introduce a lag (because of the "handshake") relative to the video (component = no "handshake")?

Having implemented HDMI software for several devices, the answer is no. The handshaking occurs before any video/audio starts, and once it is completed, the audio and video is started simultaneously. However, there may be some lag between the HDMI output path and the Component output path (on the order of milliseconds, possibly microseconds). Also, be aware that some players will not output both HDMI and component at the same time. So, if you use HDMI for audio, you won't be able to get video over component. There may also be independent lag introduced by video processing.
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post #200 of 250 Old 10-15-2007, 08:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drhankz View Post

SORRY - That is a VIOLATION of HDMI Copyright
protection.

Until you have a HDMI AVR receiver and HDMI TV or PJ.

Forget that HDMI exists and stick with 1970 analog technology.

There are a few products out there that will do this... THIS is one... it's less than $200, and will output YPbPr from an HDMI input

Quote:
Originally Posted by thrang
Onkyo has a relatively tiny ecosystem to work in, and even in this, they are unmotivated and uncaring.
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post #201 of 250 Old 10-15-2007, 08:18 AM
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There are a few products out there that will do this... THIS is one... it's less than $200, and will output YPbPr from an HDMI input

Don't depend on these devices in the long term. HDMI decryption keys can be revoked at any point in time, preventing these devices from even receiving an HDMI signal.
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post #202 of 250 Old 10-15-2007, 08:31 AM
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Originally Posted by plh36 View Post

Direct Buy members are in luck. They have them up for order as well! Just placed my order and the estimated arrival date is November 9th......


I got a call from Direct Buy on the weekend saying that they are going to refund me my money for my pre-order as this unit is being discontinued.

They have since updated their website with the following text on this unit.

Quote:


**NOTE: Please note that this product has been discontinued.**

Does anyone know if this is true?
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post #203 of 250 Old 10-15-2007, 09:12 AM
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Someone over in the other thread said they called Crutchfield and were told the same thing, but until there's an official announcement from Samsung that this unit has been discontinued I'll have a hard time believing it. If that's indeed the case, however, I'm going to be very disappointed.
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post #204 of 250 Old 10-15-2007, 12:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lindahl View Post

Don't depend on these devices in the long term. HDMI decryption keys can be revoked at any point in time, preventing these devices from even receiving an HDMI signal.

I don't use it (the only non-HDMI connection I have is my Wii)... but they do [i]exist[i]. That was my point... it is possible to convert HDMI to analog...

Quote:
Originally Posted by thrang
Onkyo has a relatively tiny ecosystem to work in, and even in this, they are unmotivated and uncaring.
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post #205 of 250 Old 10-19-2007, 02:09 PM
 
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Originally Posted by ezjunk View Post

I'm not that familiar with Samsung except for their TV's which seem inferior to me.

OT but I would say this is largely your imagination.
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post #206 of 250 Old 10-19-2007, 06:02 PM
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Um... Look through the plasma section, and the professional magazine reviews that are out there. Samsung stuff does have more problems than a lot of other manufacturers. Screen uniformity being a primary one. Reliability over time being another. And don't forget their very 1st BD player was hampered by that incorrect noise setting (or whatever it was) in the hardware that caused BD movies from it to look no better than very well done DVDs. Samsung has made dramatic improvements in quality over time. But I wouldn't call them a top tier manufacturer yet. I hope the 5000 is one example of them actually getting there though.

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post #207 of 250 Old 10-19-2007, 06:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin C Brown View Post

Um... Look through the plasma section, and the professional magazine reviews that are out there. Samsung stuff does have more problems than a lot of other manufacturers. Screen uniformity being a primary one. Reliability over time being another. And don't forget their very 1st BD player was hampered by that incorrect noise setting (or whatever it was) in the hardware that caused BD movies from it to look no better than very well done DVDs. Samsung has made dramatic improvements in quality over time. But I wouldn't call them a top tier manufacturer yet. I hope the 5000 is one example of them actually getting there though.

Samsung might not be top shelf quality but blaming them for the poor transfer quality of the first BR titles is total crap. If you hadn't bought everything the BDA tells you you might have known that but maybe that's asking too much. Common sense would have made you realize that they didn't re-issue 5th element because of Samsung...

So far the 5000 looks great in theory, of course execution is another story, so let's see what happens once it finally comes out.

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post #208 of 250 Old 10-19-2007, 10:08 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Kevin C Brown View Post

Um... Look through the plasma section, and the professional magazine reviews that are out there. Samsung stuff does have more problems than a lot of other manufacturers. Screen uniformity being a primary one. Reliability over time being another. And don't forget their very 1st BD player was hampered by that incorrect noise setting (or whatever it was) in the hardware that caused BD movies from it to look no better than very well done DVDs. Samsung has made dramatic improvements in quality over time. But I wouldn't call them a top tier manufacturer yet. I hope the 5000 is one example of them actually getting there though.

I haven't touched their plasmas but their LCDs are top tier. Cnet gave the LNT-4665F the highest rating they've ever given any mid-sized LCDTV.

Even Sony has been guilty of poor screen uniformity but at least Samsung didn't deny it and then issue a firmware upgrade that changed the contrast level just to make the problem go away. It's all really perspective. The Sharps also had/have their share of problems (banding, I believe).
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post #209 of 250 Old 10-21-2007, 08:33 AM
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Originally Posted by eurotrance View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin C Brown View Post

Um... Look through the plasma section, and the professional magazine reviews that are out there. Samsung stuff does have more problems than a lot of other manufacturers. Screen uniformity being a primary one. Reliability over time being another. And don't forget their very 1st BD player was hampered by that incorrect noise setting (or whatever it was) in the hardware that caused BD movies from it to look no better than very well done DVDs. Samsung has made dramatic improvements in quality over time. But I wouldn't call them a top tier manufacturer yet. I hope the 5000 is one example of them actually getting there though.

Samsung might not be top shelf quality but blaming them for the poor transfer quality of the first BR titles is total crap. If you hadn't bought everything the BDA tells you you might have known that but maybe that's asking too much. Common sense would have made you realize that they didn't re-issue 5th element because of Samsung...

So far the 5000 looks great in theory, of course execution is another story, so let's see what happens once it finally comes out.

He isn't blaming Samsung for 5th element... EVERY BD looked like garbage for the first 3 months of the Sammy 1000's life... titles that eventually looked good/great were originally crap from the Sammy.

Was it fixed? yes, but NOT in a timely manner... 3 months for a firmware update is inexcusable IMO. That is why if the 5000 is not 100% out-of-the-box, I will wait until they have issued a firmware update to make it so

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post #210 of 250 Old 10-21-2007, 09:46 AM
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Originally Posted by JU1CYFRU1T View Post

He isn't blaming Samsung for 5th element... EVERY BD looked like garbage for the first 3 months of the Sammy 1000's life... titles that eventually looked good/great were originally crap from the Sammy.

Was it fixed? yes, but NOT in a timely manner... 3 months for a firmware update is inexcusable IMO. That is why if the 5000 is not 100% out-of-the-box, I will wait until they have issued a firmware update to make it so

Maybe you and me speak a different english. In his post he states "And don't forget their very 1st BD player was hampered by that incorrect noise setting (or whatever it was) in the hardware that caused BD movies from it to look no better than very well done DVDs."

What part of that is not blaming Samsung for the crappy transfers issued by BDA studios at first ? I seriously doubt and have never heard of the incorrect filter setting making the "BD movies from it to look no better than very well done DVDs", other than statements by their own team mates such as Andrew Parsons who was blaming Samsung for these transfers looking bad.

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