Displays that support 1080p/24 signal at multiplies of the original frame rate - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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post #31 of 151 Old 11-26-2007, 10:39 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by podaman View Post

Are there 720p native displays that properly convert/display 1080p/24 material to 720p at 48/72/96/120Hz via 2:2, 3:3, 4:4, 5:5 multiples of the original frame? (I know you purposely don't include them in this list)

(To cut to the chase, the Panasonic PT-AX200U front projector in particular, which accepts 1080p24 material, but is unclear in how it displays it.)

Yes the list only includes 1080P models that properly display 1080P/24. If you visit Pioneer's website all their current 720P Plasma's will accept a 1080P/24 signal and display the signal on the screen at 720P at 72fps. Also if you visit Sony's website they have a few 720P LCD's that will do a 5:5 pulldown and display 1080P/24 material at 720P at 120fps.
In answer to your main question the Panasonic PT-AX200U will accept a 1080P/24 signal and down convert it to 720P according to the review by Projector Central. The review does not clearly mention what refresh rate is being used but it sounds like it might refresh at either 48HZ or 72HZ instead of 60HZ.
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Another capability that has begun to appear on many home theater projectors is the ability to accept and display a 1080p/24 signal. Panasonic introduced this on last year's AX100U, and the AX200U has it as well. The 1080p/24 format is important because it is now becoming a standard output format on many of the new HD DVD and Blu-ray players.
The benefit of 1080p/24 transmission between the HD player and the projector is that it eliminates the need for 24 frame/sec film material to go through 2:3 pulldown conversion. This conversion has always been necessary to get film to synch with the 60 cycle displays that are part of the NTSC world. But with digital projectors being able to run at 24 Hz (or multiples thereof, 48 or 72 Hz), the conversion to 60 Hz is no longer needed. This will reduce occasional artifacts such as judder in slow panning sequences and allow a smoother, cleaner display of the film source.
http://www.projectorcentral.com/panasonic_ax200u_home_theater_projector.htm
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post #32 of 151 Old 11-26-2007, 12:00 PM
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Nice list, it's good to see that it appears my Sony KDS-60A3000 is performing 1080p24 correctly (I believed it was based on my personal experience). Any word on what the Mitsu WD65833 is doing since it also claims 120Hz refresh, but I didn't see it on your list.
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post #33 of 151 Old 11-26-2007, 09:27 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tkdee View Post

Nice list, it's good to see that it appears my Sony KDS-60A3000 is performing 1080p24 correctly (I believed it was based on my personal experience). Any word on what the Mitsu WD65833 is doing since it also claims 120Hz refresh, but I didn't see it on your list.

This new review proves that Mitsubishi is using a 3:2 pulldown technique when converting 1080P/24 material to 60HZ. Then it converts 60HZ to 120HZ. The Mitsubishi remains off the list since it does not bypass the 3:2 pulldown process for 24fps sources.
Quote The set will also accept and display a 1080p/24 source, such ad Blu-ray or HD DVD. However, rather than the optimum technique of upconverting 1080p/24 to 1080p/120 directly, to match the native 120Hz frame rate of the set, 1080p/24 inputs are first converted to 1080p/60 by adding 3/2 pulldown. The set then handles the signal as it would any 1080p/60 input by frame-doubling it to1080p/120.
http://ultimateavmag.com/flatpaneldisplays/1107mits46144/

The Mitsubishi HC5000 and HC6000 LCD Front projectors are the only ones that I know of that have correct refresh rates at multiplies of the original frame. I will be watching for a professional review of the 120HZ DLP rear projectors to see if any of them use multiples of the original frames.
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post #34 of 151 Old 11-27-2007, 10:49 PM
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One thing I am interested in just out of curiosity are the any of the LG plasmas and LCD s. When they released the first dual deck HD-DVD/Blu-ray player, it would only output 1080/24p and not even support 1080/60p. You would think their displays would support the full effect of this considering they didn't even support regular 1080p displays.
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post #35 of 151 Old 11-28-2007, 09:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HDTV1080P24 View Post

This new review proves that Mitsubishi is using a 3:2 pulldown technique when converting 1080P/24 material to 60HZ. Then it converts 60HZ to 120HZ. The Mitsubishi remains off the list since it does not bypass the 3:2 pulldown process for 24fps sources.
Quote The set will also accept and display a 1080p/24 source, such ad Blu-ray or HD DVD. However, rather than the optimum technique of upconverting 1080p/24 to 1080p/120 directly, to match the native 120Hz frame rate of the set, 1080p/24 inputs are first converted to 1080p/60 by adding 3/2 pulldown. The set then handles the signal as it would any 1080p/60 input by frame-doubling it to1080p/120.
http://ultimateavmag.com/flatpaneldisplays/1107mits46144/

The Mitsubishi HC5000 and HC6000 LCD Front projectors are the only ones that I know of that have correct refresh rates at multiplies of the original frame. I will be watching for a professional review of the 120HZ DLP rear projectors to see if any of them use multiples of the original frames.

Dumb question(s), but those are the kind you learn the most form often: Why does it matter how it "gets there" (from 1080p/24 to 1080p/120) as long as it does and passes the HQV tests? Isn't the 1080p/24 already 2:3 format?
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post #36 of 151 Old 11-28-2007, 10:03 AM
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Makes me really warm and fuzzy that I purchased a HC5000 this spring. I actually didn't see any benefit from going from 60i/p to 24p, so the 3:2 must be really good too.

-Josh Murrah
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post #37 of 151 Old 11-28-2007, 11:27 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blakeBBY View Post

One thing I am interested in just out of curiosity are the any of the LG plasmas and LCD s. When they released the first dual deck HD-DVD/Blu-ray player, it would only output 1080/24p and not even support 1080/60p. You would think their displays would support the full effect of this considering they didn't even support regular 1080p displays.

Yes the old discontinued LG BH100 did not have a 1080P/60 output, would not access the interactive menus for HD-DVD discs and would not play audio CD’s. The new BH200 will output 1080P at 24fps, 30fps, and 60fps. The BH200 is also a true fully functional combo player for HD-DVD and BLU-RAY with support for audio CD’s. With a future firmware upgrade the LG BH200 is suppose to support both bonus view profile 1.1 and profile 2.0.
Currently all LG flat panel displays accept both a 1080P/24 and 1080P/60 input but it does not display 1080P/24 correctly at multiplies of the original frame since it uses a 3:2 pulldown to convert to 60HZ first instead of frame doubling to 120HZ.
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post #38 of 151 Old 11-28-2007, 11:50 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kjgarrison View Post

, but those are the kind you learn the most form often: Why does it matter how it "gets there" (from 1080p/24 to 1080p/120) as long as it does and passes the HQV tests? Isn't the 1080p/24 already 2:3 format?

Good question. A 5:5 process where 1080P/24 is frame doubled 5 times will result in less judder and a look that is closer to 70MM and 35mm film. When a 3:2 pulldown process is used 1080P/24 material will experience slight artifacts like judder and the image will not be as smooth. So converting to 60HZ and then converting to120HZ has no benefit since the 3:2 process causes motion artifacts. In fact if the 3:2 pulldown process is better quality in the BLU-RAY/HD-DVD player compared to the 3:2 process in a display then it would be better to set the BLU-RAY/HD-DVD player to 60HZ output if one owns a display that does not refresh 1080P/24 at correct multiplies to match film quality.
1080P/24 output on a player should only be used when one owns a display that refreshes 24fps material at multiplies of the original frame or when one owns a 60HZ display that does a better job of converting 24 fps to 60 fps then what the BLU-RAY/HD-DVD player is capable of doing.
On some 120HZ displays some people like to use a motion enhancer technique to make film material look like super smooth 60HZ video. Those that own the Sony 120HZ displays that want the display to frame multiple 24fps material 5X turn off the motion enhancer feature so they get the look of film.
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post #39 of 151 Old 11-28-2007, 12:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShagMan View Post

Makes me really warm and fuzzy that I purchased a HC5000 this spring. I actually didn't see any benefit from going from 60i/p to 24p, so the 3:2 must be really good too.

I know what you mean. I've recently become happy I chose the Sony A3000 over the Mits 833 because when I was first looking around the jury was still out on what each set was doing with the 120Hz signal. One of the main deciding factors for me though was that I didn't think the Mits handled fast motion (I believe the source was a HDM disk at the B&M store I was at) all that well even though it had a faster refresh rate.
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post #40 of 151 Old 12-01-2007, 10:36 AM
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Exelent post HDTV1080P24, Thank You!

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post #41 of 151 Old 12-03-2007, 11:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HDTV1080P24 View Post

Yes the list only includes 1080P models that properly display 1080P/24. If you visit Pioneer's website all their current 720P Plasma's will accept a 1080P/24 signal and display the signal on the screen at 720P at 72fps. Also if you visit Sony's website they have a few 720P LCD's that will do a 5:5 pulldown and display 1080P/24 material at 720P at 120fps.
In answer to your main question the Panasonic PT-AX200U will accept a 1080P/24 signal and down convert it to 720P according to the review by Projector Central. The review does not clearly mention what refresh rate is being used but it sounds like it might refresh at either 48HZ or 72HZ instead of 60HZ.
Quote
Another capability that has begun to appear on many home theater projectors is the ability to accept and display a 1080p/24 signal. Panasonic introduced this on last year's AX100U, and the AX200U has it as well. The 1080p/24 format is important because it is now becoming a standard output format on many of the new HD DVD and Blu-ray players.
The benefit of 1080p/24 transmission between the HD player and the projector is that it eliminates the need for 24 frame/sec film material to go through 2:3 pulldown conversion. This conversion has always been necessary to get film to synch with the 60 cycle displays that are part of the NTSC world. But with digital projectors being able to run at 24 Hz (or multiples thereof, 48 or 72 Hz), the conversion to 60 Hz is no longer needed. This will reduce occasional artifacts such as judder in slow panning sequences and allow a smoother, cleaner display of the film source.
http://www.projectorcentral.com/panasonic_ax200u_home_theater_projector.htm


Hey HDTV1080P24, I got an email from Evan Powell (the guy who reviewed the AX200U at projector central.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evan via email View Post

Hi Greg,

The AX200 runs a 24p signal at 96 Hz.

Evan

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post #42 of 151 Old 12-05-2007, 10:01 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by podaman View Post

Hey HDTV1080P24, I got an email from Evan Powell (the guy who reviewed the AX200U at projector central.)

Thanks for the info. Perhaps someone on the forum in the future will create a list of 720P displays that accepts a 1080P/24 input and displays 24fps at multiplies of the original frame. I have decided to only include 1080P displays on my list.
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post #43 of 151 Old 12-05-2007, 10:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raptor007 View Post

Samsung's 71 series LCDs will be getting an official firmware update soon that will remove all interpolation when AutoMotionPlus is off. A pre-release version has been unofficially leaked already.

In addition to getting rid of the "TBE", this new firmware should allow a pure 5:5 when AMP is off. With older firmware there's some unwanted interpolation going on when AMP is off, so it's technically not duplicating frames correctly.

"[Samsung]'s engineers claim that their sets perform the ideal 5:5 conversion, simply multiplying every frame; 5x24 equals 120."
http://reviews.cnet.com/flat-panel-t...-32514512.html

Cool, because that's what I have Is there really a perceivable difference in picture/fluidity?

Click here for my home theater setup
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post #44 of 151 Old 12-10-2007, 07:41 PM
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This is a great thread. Thanks for all the work. I hope that this continues to be updated.

I do have a question for all you 24Hz guys. Assume that I'm using a scalar, like a DVDO Vp50, and I'm getting 1080p@24Hz from my HDDVD player and I have a display that is 24Hz compatible. What would I set the output refresh rate to on my scalar to work well with video based content too?

I would assume that if the display could handle 120hz, I would set the scalar to output 120. That way the HDDVD is processed using a 5:5 and the Video content is 2:2???? What if the display can't do 120Hz and does 48 or 72?

Thanks

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post #45 of 151 Old 12-10-2007, 09:59 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DOA View Post

This is a great thread. Thanks for all the work. I hope that this continues to be updated.

I do have a question for all you 24Hz guys. Assume that I'm using a scalar, like a DVDO Vp50, and I'm getting 1080p@24Hz from my HDDVD player and I have a display that is 24Hz compatible. What would I set the output refresh rate to on my scalar to work well with video based content too?

I would assume that if the display could handle 120hz, I would set the scalar to output 120. That way the HDDVD is processed using a 5:5 and the Video content is 2:2???? What if the display can't do 120Hz and does 48 or 72?

Thanks

DOA

Many 1080P displays only accept a 60HZ input but many new ones will also accept 24HZ and a few 30HZ. None of the rear projectors or flat panels have 48HZ, 72HZ, 96HZ, or 120HZ inputs. Perhaps some high-end front projectors might accept 48HZ direct input and maybe some day 120HZ input for those that want to use a high-end scalers that will detect 24fps film material and upconvert the image to 1080P/24fps or 1080P/48fps.
In answer to your question if in the future high-end front projectors and scalers are developed that support several different fps rates then you could set the scaler to 48HZ, 72HZ, 96HZ, or 120HZ in order to match the native refresh rate of the display (As long as a future display can accept those input fps rates).
In general if you currently own a display that accepts a 24fps input and refreshes at multiplies of the original frame then set your scaler to output 24HZ. When video material is detected it should output 60HZ and when film based material is detected it should output 24HZ. Most displays will auto switch between 1080P/24 and 1080P/60 when the signal changes.
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post #46 of 151 Old 12-11-2007, 06:52 AM
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Thanks! Does anyone know if a scalar like the VP50 will change its output if it detects a video signal(60Hz) versus a film signal(24Hz)?

Thanks

DOA
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post #47 of 151 Old 12-11-2007, 08:19 AM
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Hey guys,

Looks like a found my own answer...Sorry. The DVDO appears to be very flexiable in this area. 1:1 frame rate lock and other parameters.

Thanks

DOA
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post #48 of 151 Old 12-11-2007, 09:53 AM
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Any1 know if the Samsung 69F/71F is 1080p 24fps capable?
Think I heard it is capable but not until an upcoming Firmware update.

Any1 got facts on this?
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post #49 of 151 Old 12-12-2007, 01:23 PM
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post #50 of 151 Old 12-14-2007, 05:42 PM
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Even if a TV (1080p) did accept a 24p signal but didn't display it right, couldn't there be a better picture still brought to it then it would if it had not?
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post #51 of 151 Old 12-17-2007, 12:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blakeBBY View Post

Even if a TV (1080p) did accept a 24p signal but didn't display it right, couldn't there be a better picture still brought to it then it would if it had not?

It's possible, assuming that the TV does a better job of 3:2 pulldown than the player would have.

Brandon
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post #52 of 151 Old 12-17-2007, 08:47 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bplewis24 View Post

It's possible, assuming that the TV does a better job of 3:2 pulldown than the player would have.

Brandon

Yes that is correct. Sometimes when one owns a display that incorrectly refreshes 24fps they can still can get a better picture with 1080P/24 if their display does a better job of converting 24fps to 60fps. Like you said Brandon it all depends on which device does a better job of 3:2 pulldown. If it is the player then the player should be set to 1080P/60. If it is the display then the player should be set to 1080P/24. Sometimes the 3:2 pulldown process circuit is about the same quality for both devices and one can not see a difference in quality between 1080P/24 and 1080P/60.
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post #53 of 151 Old 12-17-2007, 10:07 PM
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Well, I just took a closer look while running my Toshiba A30 HD-DVD Player.
I have teh A30 to run 1080p/24hz just running Bourne Identity HD-DVD.
In the Info display of my Samsung 4069F, it says V Frequency: 24HZ
That is with Default Stock Settings.


SO I guess this 69F is 1080p/24hz capable ?
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post #54 of 151 Old 12-18-2007, 06:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kilim View Post

Well, I just took a closer look while running my Toshiba A30 HD-DVD Player.
I have teh A30 to run 1080p/24hz just running Bourne Identity HD-DVD.
In the Info display of my Samsung 4069F, it says V Frequency: 24HZ
That is with Default Stock Settings.


SO I guess this 69F is 1080p/24hz capable ?


No your display does not properly display 24Hz. It accepts 24Hz but displays it at 60Hz. This thread is about displays that properly multiply 24Hz to either 48Hz, 72Hz, 96Hz or 120Hz.
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post #55 of 151 Old 12-18-2007, 09:13 AM
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These sets accept a 24 fps input with new firmware and output at 120 Hz (I have a HL-T5687S firmware v.1026) but I am not positive it's a straight 5:5 pulldown despite the link above.
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post #56 of 151 Old 12-18-2007, 10:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CKNA View Post

No your display does not properly display 24Hz. It accepts 24Hz but displays it at 60Hz. This thread is about displays that properly multiply 24Hz to either 48Hz, 72Hz, 96Hz or 120Hz.

Sorry, but that's not correct. The 71F and 69F series are just like the XBR4/5 in that they take the 24fps input and display each frame 5 times to get it to the 120Hz refresh of the set. No 3:2 conversion is being done.
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post #57 of 151 Old 12-18-2007, 10:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CKNA View Post

No your display does not properly display 24Hz. It accepts 24Hz but displays it at 60Hz. This thread is about displays that properly multiply 24Hz to either 48Hz, 72Hz, 96Hz or 120Hz.

Are you sure you're not confusing the 69F with the 61/65 series? How do you know the 69F is displaying at 60Hz? This is a 120Hz advertised set.

New Samsung LNTxx71f owner? Read the FAQ!
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...4#post12429454
LNTxx71f owners FW list
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post #58 of 151 Old 12-18-2007, 02:11 PM - Thread Starter
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Update on the Sony VPL-VW200 refresh rate when a 1080P/24 signal is applied (192HZ refresh rate)


According to the excellent review of the Sony VPL-VW200 at UltimateAVmag.com the Sony VPL-VW200 panel does a 4:4 pulldown for 1080P/24 material and then is refreshed at 192HZ on the screen. So when both the motion enhancer option is turned off and the film projection option is turned off the VPL-VW200 panel will perform frame multiplication at 96HZ when a 1080P/24 signal is applied. 60HZ material will be converted to 120HZ by the panel. Then once the panel is finished converting the frame rate the actual image is refreshed on the screen at 192HZ for 1080P/24 material and 240HZ for 60HZ material. When motion enhancer is turned on the projector has a smoothing effect that makes film look like 60HZ video using interpolation of new frames. The Black frame insertion is a unique feature of this projector which is part of the Film projection option that can be turned off and on. Film projection option uses dark or black frame insertion (see review link for more details about black frame insertion)
This Sony VPL-VW200 is an excellent quality projector for $15,000. The Xenon bulb this projector uses has a beautiful color spectrum. With the bulb estimating half life at 2500 hours this $999 bulb is expensive to replace. Hopefully one day someone will figure out how to make a Xenon bulb that costs $300-$500 and lasts at least 3000 hours. Replacing bulbs every year or two for $999 can get expensive.

Information source

Following quotes come from this review link http://ultimateavmag.com/videoprojectors/1207sonyvw200/index.html

Quote
The VPL-VW200 can operate at frame rates of up to 120Hz. When it receives a source 1080p/24 frames per second (Hz) or 1080p/60 fps (Hz), it upconverts it to either 96Hz or 120Hz.

If you turn off both the Film Projection and Motion Enhancer features, the extra frames needed to upconvert the source frame rate to 96Hz or 120Hz are produced simply by repeating frames. For more detail on the Motionflow feature, see "Poetry in Motion?" at the end of this review.
Sony also states that an SXRD display actually refresh at twice the frame rate. That means that when the panel receives a source that has been converted to 120Hz, the image is refreshed 240Hz. For 96Hz, it's 192Hz.
See the following Poetry in Motion link for above quote in blue
http://ultimateavmag.com/videoprojectors/1207sonyvw200/index3.html
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post #59 of 151 Old 12-18-2007, 04:00 PM
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Thanks for starting this thread as I have been more interested in the 1080p/24 subject since seeing the Sony 120Hz units showing up at CC. I definitely like the film look watching on these new 120Hz Sony's that are showing up but I have a question about the different refresh rates.

Will there be much of a difference if a projector were to refresh at 48Hz compared to 96Hz or 120Hz? I understand as long as the correct multiple is being done that's what matters most, but what would look different for a unit refreshing at 48Hz compared to one doing 120Hz?


Thanks for all the info as this is a major feature I want in my next Front Projector.
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post #60 of 151 Old 12-18-2007, 05:13 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brasky View Post

Thanks for starting this thread as I have been more interested in the 1080p/24 subject since seeing the Sony 120Hz units showing up at CC. I definitely like the film look watching on these new 120Hz Sony's that are showing up but I have a question about the different refresh rates.

Will there be much of a difference if a projector were to refresh at 48Hz compared to 96Hz or 120Hz? I understand as long as the correct multiple is being done that's what matters most, but what would look different for a unit refreshing at 48Hz compared to one doing 120Hz?


Thanks for all the info as this is a major feature I want in my next Front Projector.

Yes the correct multiplies of the original frame is the most important feature to look for. In theory a 240HZ or 120HZ frame rate should reduce judder more then a 48HZ display. Since 70mm and 35mm film is either 48HZ or 72HZ this is good enough for most film fans.
It would be great if one could adjust the frame rate on a display to see how much better 240HZ or 120HZ displays look compared to 48HZ. The judder in theory should be less at higher multiplies of the original frame. Higher refresh rates are also easier on the eyes. Highend professinal computer monitors offer higher refresh rates then 120HZ to make the quality better with less eye strain.
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