Displays that support 1080p/24 signal at multiplies of the original frame rate - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 151 Old 01-17-2008, 01:10 PM
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I noticed that the Optoma HD81-LV is listed among the projectors able to accept 24 fps. This is not exactly correct. The 81-LV will only go into its 48HZ mode if it is "forced". Very few players have this capability. Both my A35 and BD30 do not force 24fps and therfore I can not get 24 fps to work. Both Panasonic and Toshiba have verified that they will not be upgrading either machine to do this. Both companies ddid say that future machines will not include "forced 24 fps."

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post #92 of 151 Old 01-17-2008, 09:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrHifi View Post

I noticed that the Optoma HD81-LV is listed among the projectors able to accept 24 fps. This is not exactly correct. The 81-LV will only go into its 48HZ mode if it is "forced". Very few players have this capability. Both my A35 and BD30 do not force 24fps and therfore I can not get 24 fps to work. Both Panasonic and Toshiba have verified that they will not be upgrading either machine to do this. Both companies ddid say that future machines will not include "forced 24 fps."

It is a shame that there still is HDMI incompatibility problems between players and displays. When a player is set to auto detect 1080P/24 from the display most of the time it is suppose to work. In the real world some brands and models of players and displays have compatibility issues when communicating with each other and will switch to 1080P/60 since 1080P/24 auto detection does not work.
Some BLU-RAY players like the PS3 have an option that allows one to turn the 1080P/24 option from auto mode to on mode. The on mode is a nice option to use when the auto feature does not work. Of course when 1080P/24 is set to on (force) one needs to make sure they have a display that accepts 1080P/24 input or no picture will be received.
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post #93 of 151 Old 01-17-2008, 09:28 PM
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I just re-read your OP, and it states that this is about displays that accept 1080p/24 inputs. Is it an assumption that all dispalys that accept 24p do 2:2, 3:3, 4:4, or 5:5 pulldown, or is it a known fact? Are there no dispays that accept 24p and then process it to 1080i/60 (telecine it) instead of one of the 1:1 pulldown variations?
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post #94 of 151 Old 01-17-2008, 09:52 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kjgarrison View Post

I just re-read your OP, and it states that this is about displays that accept 1080p/24 inputs. Is it an assumption that all dispalys that accept 24p do 2:2, 3:3, 4:4, or 5:5 pulldown, or is it a known fact? Are there no dispays that accept 24p and then process it to 1080i/60 (telecine it) instead of one of the 1:1 pulldown variations?

When displays that support 1080P/24 signals first came out they all correctly refreshed the images at multiplies of the original frame. Then many companies started making lower cost 1080P/24 displays that used a 3:2 pulldown process and refreshed the image at 60HZ and 120HZ with 3:2 pulldown which offers no benefit.
The reason why no display and movie projector uses 24 fps for output 1:1 pulldown is the fact the image will be unwatchable with a terrible flicker. The 35mm and 70mm film is shot at 24 fps and flashed on the screen at 48 fps or 72 fps. The advantage of BLU-RAY and HD-DVD is that 1080P/24 is native on the disc and when connected to a display that properly refreshes 24fps at multiplies of the original frame there is reduced judder and other minor picture improvements.
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post #95 of 151 Old 01-18-2008, 09:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HDTV1080P24 View Post

When displays that support 1080P/24 signals first came out they all correctly refreshed the images at multiplies of the original frame. Then many companies started making lower cost 1080P/24 displays that used a 3:2 pulldown process and refreshed the image at 60HZ and 120HZ with 3:2 pulldown which offers no benefit.
The reason why no display and movie projector uses 24 fps for output 1:1 pulldown is the fact the image will be unwatchable with a terrible flicker. The 35mm and 70mm film is shot at 24 fps and flashed on the screen at 48 fps or 72 fps. The advantage of BLU-RAY and HD-DVD is that 1080P/24 is native on the disc and when connected to a display that properly refreshes 24fps at multiplies of the original frame there is reduced judder and other minor picture improvements.

That is what I was suspicious of. No benefit exactly. In fact harm, because it introduces judder, right?

I only used "1:1" to avoid listing 2:2, 3:3, 4:4, 5:5 again. Lazy, but they are mathematically 1:1.

Wouldn't doing multiples of 24fps actually avoid judder, rather than 'reduce' it?
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post #96 of 151 Old 01-18-2008, 03:35 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kjgarrison View Post

That is what I was suspicious of. No benefit exactly. In fact harm, because it introduces judder, right?

I only used "1:1" to avoid listing 2:2, 3:3, 4:4, 5:5 again. Lazy, but they are mathematically 1:1.

Wouldn't doing multiples of 24fps actually avoid judder, rather than 'reduce' it?

Even 35mm and 70mm film has some judder. In theory higher multiplies of the original frame rate would reduce judder even more and make the image look more natural and smooth. Maybe some day there will be a 10:10 pulldown displays that refresh at 240HZ.
Some articles you read on the subject will mention that it eliminates judder but most articles will mention there will always be judder and multiplies of the original frame only reduces the judder.
Most people have been watching 60HZ video for years with 3:2 pulldown and they get use to the judder during camera pans and fast action scenes. 24 fps is unwatchable since you see the image flicker that is why 35mm and 70mm are flashed on the screen at 48fps, 72fps or higher multiplies. Eliminating 3:2 pulldown process makes movies at home look more like film compared to 60HZ video. Some people prefer the look of video over film.
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post #97 of 151 Old 01-18-2008, 03:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HDTV1080P24 View Post

Even 35mm and 70mm film has some judder. In theory higher multiplies of the original frame rate would reduce judder even more and make the image look more natural and smooth. Maybe some day there will be a 10:10 pulldown displays that refresh at 240HZ.
Some articles you read on the subject will mention that it eliminates judder but most articles will mention there will always be judder and multiplies of the original frame only reduces the judder.
Most people have been watching 60HZ video for years with 3:2 pulldown and they get use to the judder during camera pans and fast action scenes. 24 fps is unwatchable since you see the image flicker that is why 35mm and 70mm are flashed on the screen at 48fps, 72fps or higher multiplies. Eliminating 3:2 pulldown process makes movies at home look more like film compared to 60HZ video. Some people prefer the look of video over film.

It appears that my understanding of the word 'judder' and it's use may be flawed. I thought judder only applied the the artifact caused by the telecine process, although I have seen the terms 'telecine judder' and 'motion judder' used in places.

I would think 24hz and any multiple of 24 that doesn't look smooth would be called 'flicker'.
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post #98 of 151 Old 01-19-2008, 06:23 AM
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I have a Samsung HL-S7178W DLP. Might anyone know if Samsung is planning a firmware update for this (if it's even possible)?
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post #99 of 151 Old 01-19-2008, 02:28 PM - Thread Starter
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The list has been updated and I edited the following post regarding NuVision.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=12825824&postcount=90
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post #100 of 151 Old 01-19-2008, 03:16 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kjgarrison View Post

It appears that my understanding of the word 'judder' and it's use may be flawed. I thought judder only applied the the artifact caused by the telecine process, although I have seen the terms 'telecine judder' and 'motion judder' used in places.

I would think 24hz and any multiple of 24 that doesn't look smooth would be called 'flicker'.

When I mention flicker I am not talking about judder.
The problem with 24HZ is that people would go nuts seeing their monitor flicker every few seconds. Higher refresh rates are always better. Monitors that accept 24fps input have to convert the 24HZ signal from BLU-RAY or HD-DVD players to 48HZ, 72HZ, 96HZ or 120HZ in order to eliminate the flicker of 24HZ video. The higher the refresh rate the less motion artifacts one will see. 24HZ is unwatchable when displayed at 24hz. The 3:2 pulldown process of converting the image to 60HZ is what introduces the judder on the screen.
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post #101 of 151 Old 01-19-2008, 03:35 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kjgarrison View Post

It appears that my understanding of the word 'judder' and it's use may be flawed. I thought judder only applied the the artifact caused by the telecine process, although I have seen the terms 'telecine judder' and 'motion judder' used in places.

I would think 24hz and any multiple of 24 that doesn't look smooth would be called 'flicker'.

I perhaps should have used a different word then judder in my prior post. Yes your correct judder generally refers to the 3:2 process. The fact is film is not perfectly smooth and judder can come from other source besides telecine judder.
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post #102 of 151 Old 01-19-2008, 03:47 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tadam View Post

I have a Samsung HL-S7178W DLP. Might anyone know if Samsung is planning a firmware update for this (if it's even possible)?

So far I have only seen a few select high-end front projectors offer a firmware update for 1080P/24. Not every product on the market is firmware upgradeable. Now if the chipset on the circuit board of your Samsung is capable of 1080P/24 then if there was enough demand Samsung might pay a programmer to create new firmware.
Short answer to your question is I am not sure if a firmware update to add true 1080P/24 support is possible for your display.
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post #103 of 151 Old 01-20-2008, 03:28 PM
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So based on the fact that it's not in the first post, are we to assume that the Samsung 71 series will not correctly display 24fps?
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post #104 of 151 Old 01-20-2008, 07:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobgodd View Post

So based on the fact that it's not in the first post, are we to assume that the Samsung 71 series will not correctly display 24fps?

I am waiting for a professional review to be performed on the Samsung 120HZ models. Hopefully either Widescreen Review, Perfect Vision, Home Theater magazine, Sound and Vision, or one of the many other magazines I subscribe to will review the 1080P/24 section. At this point I do not know yet if the Samsung 120HZ does a 5:5 pulldown and properly display 1080P/24 similar to a movie projector. It took several months before the Sony LCD and rear projectors appeared on the list after they were released. Waiting for professional reviews can take awhile.
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post #105 of 151 Old 01-20-2008, 08:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HDTV1080P24 View Post

I am waiting for a professional review to be performed on the Samsung 120HZ models. Hopefully either Widescreen Review, Perfect Vision, Home Theater magazine, Sound and Vision, or one of the many other magazines I subscribe to will review the 1080P/24 section. At this point I do not know yet if the Samsung 120HZ does a 5:5 pulldown and properly display 1080P/24 similar to a movie projector. It took several months before the Sony LCD and rear projectors appeared on the list after they were released. Waiting for professional reviews can take awhile.

I see. Have you seen one of the sets yet?? If you have, based on just your opinion, do you think they display 1080p/24 properly?

I have an A35 and I did the best test I could between my set (with I know for a fact does not display 24fps correctly) and the Samsung 4671f. With AMP (Auto Motion Plus) turned off, and just running Transformers off of HD-DVD, the set was a slight bit smoother on motion than my set. I did not however, verify that the signal coming from the Onkyo HD-DVD player was 1080p/24. I'll have to go back and check again.
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post #106 of 151 Old 01-21-2008, 07:44 AM
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On my Samsung HL-T5087S, with either my PS3 set to force 24Hz, or my Samsung BD-UP5000 set to 24Hz, the TV displays a stunning image, and pressing the info button on the TV remote shows 1920x1080 24Hz. This was tried with The Fifth Element BD, The Bourne Ultimatum HD-DVD, and Fantastic Four Rise of the Silver Surfer BD. Thus, it appears to me that this set does indeed support 1080p/24.
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post #107 of 151 Old 01-21-2008, 08:05 AM
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HDTV1080P24,

I feel you are doing a disservice to buyers who might expect the the HD81 and HD81-LV will reproduce 24 fps regardless of the input device. In fact, like many other display devices, the 81's must be "forced" into 24 fps. I believe you should note that in your list. Otherwise it is misleading and will cause buyers to err when purchasing HD DVD and Blu Ray players that sdo not "force" 24 fps>

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post #108 of 151 Old 01-21-2008, 10:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobgodd View Post

So based on the fact that it's not in the first post, are we to assume that the Samsung 71 series will not correctly display 24fps?

Quote:
Originally Posted by HDTV1080P24 View Post

I am waiting for a professional review to be performed on the Samsung 120HZ models. Hopefully either Widescreen Review, Perfect Vision, Home Theater magazine, Sound and Vision, or one of the many other magazines I subscribe to will review the 1080P/24 section. At this point I do not know yet if the Samsung 120HZ does a 5:5 pulldown and properly display 1080P/24 similar to a movie projector. It took several months before the Sony LCD and rear projectors appeared on the list after they were released. Waiting for professional reviews can take awhile.

I have a 71 and it does a nice job with 24p. The AMP feature smooths it very nicely too.

On the 71 thread there is a lot of debate about whether they do 5:5

The 71 was reviewed by CNET and they said that the Samsung engineers said that it does do 5:5.

The 71 accept 24p inputs, but the problem is nobody seems to be able to tell the difference between 5:5 and the alternative where the TV telecines (3:2 pulldown), then deinterlaces, then doubles the 60hz framerate to 120. Maybe somebody with the right background can eyeball it and tell, I don't know. So far such a person has not stepped forward, and I have seen nothing about a way to find out with testing equipment.
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post #109 of 151 Old 01-21-2008, 01:51 PM
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It could have been the BluRay player that was hooked up to the set, but today at Fry's I set the BluRay player (forget which model) to 24p and after watching the movie, I checked the info display on the 46XBR4 and it made no mention that it was receiving a 24p input. Could it be that the BluRay player was not forcing 24p?

For what it's worth, the picture on the XBR4 was spectacular none-the-less.
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post #110 of 151 Old 01-21-2008, 06:20 PM
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Have Panasonic's commercial "10UK" plasma family been excluded from this list for some reason? i.e. the TH-50PF10UK and TH-65PF10UK?
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post #111 of 151 Old 01-21-2008, 10:35 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CarbonJoe View Post

On my Samsung HL-T5087S, with either my PS3 set to force 24Hz, or my Samsung BD-UP5000 set to 24Hz, the TV displays a stunning image, and pressing the info button on the TV remote shows 1920x1080 24Hz. This was tried with The Fifth Element BD, The Bourne Ultimatum HD-DVD, and Fantastic Four Rise of the Silver Surfer BD. Thus, it appears to me that this set does indeed support 1080p/24.

CarbonJoe what you have proven is the Samsung HL-T5087S accepts a 1080P/24 input. Pushing the info button will only inform you what signal is being received and not how the 24fps is being processed on the screen. Both 1080P/60 and 1080P/24 have a excellent picture quality. This list is made up of only 1080P/24 displays that have been verfied to refresh 1080P/24 at multiplies of the original frame rate. Most 1080P/24 displays on the market use a 3:2 pulldown process with 60HZ and 120HZ screen outputs in order to save cost.
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post #112 of 151 Old 01-21-2008, 10:52 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobgodd View Post

It could have been the BluRay player that was hooked up to the set, but today at Fry's I set the BluRay player (forget which model) to 24p and after watching the movie, I checked the info display on the 46XBR4 and it made no mention that it was receiving a 24p input. Could it be that the BluRay player was not forcing 24p?

For what it's worth, the picture on the XBR4 was spectacular none-the-less.

Not all models of displays when hitting a info button will show you the HZ (fps) rate. When motion enhancer is turned off on the Sony it will perform a 5:5 pulldown for 1080P/24 material as long as the BLU-RAY player is set to auto or on. On mode is the best to use since auto does not work all the time with some BLU-RAY players do to handshacking issues between the player and display.
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post #113 of 151 Old 01-21-2008, 11:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashop View Post

Have Panasonic's commercial "10UK" plasma family been excluded from this list for some reason? i.e. the TH-50PF10UK and TH-65PF10UK?

Every single review I read on the Panasonic flat panel displays has shown that they only accept a 1080P/60 input. That is why Panasonic front projectors are the only models currently on the list.
Last year I read that Panasonic was going to introduce Plasma screens with a 1080P/24 input for 2008. Most likely (hopefully) the Panasonics will refresh the image at multiplies of the original frame. Maybe 72HZ or 120HZ. Unless the specs change some of these Panasonic displays will be THX certified. I would be in shock if the THX certified displays did not bypass the 3:2 pulldown process. Pioneer for 2 years has been the only company making true 1080P/24 Plasma’s. It would be nice to see some competition. If Panasonic would list buzz words like 5:5 pulldown or 3:3 pulldown on their website for these new models then I will instantly add these models to the list. Otherwise I am going to wait for a professional review which will take a few months after the product is released.
Info news link regarding the new Panasonic displays that might be added to the list in the future
.http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/panasonic-builds-upon-its-award/story.aspx?guid={991A742E-5C23-4BF0-BB9C-D66851F076E5}
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post #114 of 151 Old 01-22-2008, 07:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HDTV1080P24 View Post

Not all models of displays when hitting a info button will show you the HZ (fps) rate. When motion enhancer is turned off on the Sony it will perform a 5:5 pulldown for 1080P/24 material as long as the BLU-RAY player is set to auto or on. On mode is the best to use since auto does not work all the time with some BLU-RAY players do to handshacking issues between the player and display.

This is the TV that I have my eyes on, especially since prices are dropping. So it does not show 24Hz in the info screen, but it is doing the 5:5 pulldown? Well that's good enough for me LOL.

Another quick question, do we know if this set will accept 24p input from a player like the Toshiba A35 which does not "force" the 24p?

Thanks for all the help!
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post #115 of 151 Old 01-22-2008, 12:49 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobgodd View Post

This is the TV that I have my eyes on, especially since prices are dropping. So it does not show 24Hz in the info screen, but it is doing the 5:5 pulldown? Well that's good enough for me LOL.

Another quick question, do we know if this set will accept 24p input from a player like the Toshiba A35 which does not "force" the 24p?

Thanks for all the help!

Here is a review link on the Sony XBR4 that goes into details on how the display works and processing 1080P/24.
http://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.php?p=253042&postcount=212

Also just about any display on the list including the Sony might run into incompatibility problems between the display and the player. Many times the problem is the HD-DVD or BLU-RAY player other times it can be the display. Of course if 6 different models of players were to work fine on the Sony and then one purchases a new model of player that does not work correctly with the Sony then the problem is going to be with the new HD player. I do not know if the Toshiba A35 works with the Sony. In theory it is suppose to work. Both the HD-DVD and BLU-RAY camp need to make players that have both a auto and on (force) setting. I have seen Samsung 1080P/24 displays not work with Samsung BLU-RAY players. This HDMI handshaking and communication bugs needs to be fixed. The LG BH200 is suppose to output 1080P/24 but I have not seen anyone able to get the LG BH200 to output 1080P/24 yet. Maybe it would work on a LG 60HZ display with a 1080P/24 input. LG hopefully will have a firmware update to allow the auto 1080P/24 mode to be turned to on mode (forced).
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post #116 of 151 Old 01-23-2008, 01:24 AM - Thread Starter
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Settings update on the Sony KDS-60A3000, KDS-55A3000, and KDS-50A3000.




There is a filter mode on the Sony SXRD rear projectors that softens the picture (resolution). In order to get full 1080P resoultion the Sony's need to be placed in standard or Vivid mode. The Cinema and custom mode softens the picture.

QUOTE from February 2008 Home Theater magazine page 69.

In the case of this TV, we picked Cinema mode. Turns out, a filter was applied to this and Custom mode that rather drastically softened the image. It wasn't until after the Face Off that I discovered that the Standard and Vivid modes had full 1080p resolution. Therefore, if you have one of these TVs, use the Standard mode and match the settings from the Cinema mode (that is, lower the color temperature, turn off all the enhancement stuff, and put it in the Standard Color Space mode). This way, you'll have the accuracy of Cinema mode, plus the detail of the Standard mode.

The Pioneer 720P (actual 768P) Kuro PDP-5080HD has more detail and better picture quality then most 1080P Plasma and LCD flat panels

By far high-end front projectors offer the best in picture quality over any other display. Of course not everyone has a dedicated dark home theater room so a front projector is not a option for some. Flat panel plasma's are the second best option. If one can not afford the price of one of the 1080P Pioneer Plasma screens then owning one of the 720P Pioneer Plasma is a good choice. A 720P Pioneer Plasma has more detail then most 1080P flat panel Plasma and LCD displays on the market. The reason for this is the ANSI contrast ratio on the kuro 720P Pioneer Plasmas is more then 11 times that of some other displays and more then double the next closes display according to Home Theater magazine's face off. The contrast ratio on the Pioneer 720P (768P actual) is so good that it offers so much more detail in contrast that it does not need resolution to appear detailed. Every Pioneer from 720P to 1080P every made that offers a 1080P/24 input option refreshes the image correctly on the screen at 72HZ. 720P Pioneer's downconvert 1080P/24 to 720P quality (around 768P actual)
Resolution is only one factor of the picture quality. Most people seat so far away from the screen that they can not see the difference between 1080P and 720P unless they own a 60 inch display or larger. 1080P does look much better then 720P if you seat close enough to the screen. Home Theater magazine ran a face off between 6 1080P displays and 1 Pioneer 720P display and by far the Pioneer had the best picture quality do to its awesome black levels. ANSI contrast ratio's can sometimes offer more detail in the picture then resolution. This list still will only include 1080P models but the fact is some 720P models will out perform 1080P in picture quality.

Quote From Home theater magazine. February 2008 page 74 and 76 (regarding the Pioneer PDP-5080HD)

Quote
the PDP-5080HD had the highest contrast ratio in the Face Off, in some cases by several times. Its ANSI contrast ratio was 11 times that of the Samsung and more then double that of the next closest display. Onscreen, this was completely visible.

Your eye is fooled into seeing detail when it is really seeing contrast. Think of what you would use to see detail, say, a wrinkle on a face. You see the wrinkle because it's in shadow compared to the rest of the face. Well, on the PDP-5080HD, that shadow was so much more realistic that it didn't need resolution to appear detailed. Seeing as it's highly doubtful you'd ever sit three times the picture height away from a 50-inch TV (less then 6 feet, in this case) 768P is more then enough.
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post #117 of 151 Old 01-23-2008, 09:39 AM
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This may seem like a silly question, but if the picture on a plasma TV is so nice, why does it seem like people are still buying LCDs over anything else? Even in store, the plasma display is all the way in the back... weird.

Not to mention they are pound for pound cheaper, no?
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post #118 of 151 Old 01-23-2008, 02:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobgodd View Post

This may seem like a silly question, but if the picture on a plasma TV is so nice, why does it seem like people are still buying LCDs over anything else? Even in store, the plasma display is all the way in the back... weird.

Not to mention they are pound for pound cheaper, no?

Plasma's have one problem like CRT screens do, they can have burn in problems if a still image is left on the screen to long. That is not a issue with LCD screens. Also 1080P LCD screens can be purchased for under $1000 and a Pioneer Plasma 720P can run around $3,000 or more. For many consumers low price is more attractive then higher performance.
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post #119 of 151 Old 01-23-2008, 04:27 PM
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Originally Posted by HDTV1080P24 View Post

Plasma's have one problem like CRT screens do, they can have burn in problems if a still image is left on the screen to long. That is not a issue with LCD screens. Also 1080P LCD screens can be purchased for under $1000 and a Pioneer Plasma 720P can run around $3,000 or more. For many consumers low price is more attractive then higher performance.

I see. Thanks for the response!
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post #120 of 151 Old 01-25-2008, 09:14 AM
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As far as I know:
- all PF9-series (both UK and EK localizations) Professional Panasonic plasmas display 24p at 48Hz when ingested via TY-FB9FDD DVI board.
- all PF10-series (both UK and EK localizations) Professional Panasonic plasmas display 24p at 48Hz/96Hz when ingested via the new TY-FB10HMD dual HDMI v1.2 board or at 48Hz when ingested via TY-FB9FDD DVI board.

Model numbers:

TH-50PF9UK
TH-50PF9EK
TH-65PF9UK
TH-65PF9EK
TH-103PF9UK

TH-50PF10UK
TH-50PF10EK
TH-65PF10UK
TH-65PF10EK
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