Displays that support 1080p/24 signal at multiplies of the original frame rate - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 151 Old 11-20-2007, 09:37 AM - Thread Starter
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Since BLU-RAY won the format war and HD-DVD players and dual format players appear to be soon going out of production I have moved the list to the following location.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=997138
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post #2 of 151 Old 11-20-2007, 09:37 AM - Thread Starter
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post #3 of 151 Old 11-20-2007, 09:38 AM - Thread Starter
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post #4 of 151 Old 11-20-2007, 09:39 AM - Thread Starter
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It is disappointing that there is very few true 1080P/24 displays on the market that refresh at multiplies of the original frame. Most manufactories have decided to make cheap quality 1080P/24 input compatible displays that performs a 3:2 pulldown which results in refresh rates of 60HZ only. It would be ideal if manufactories would focus on quality when including a 1080P/24 input. Most displays that have 1080P/24 are nothing more then marketing buzz words to attract consumers into purchasing their display. Only a few companies make true 1080P/24 displays that refresh at multiplies of the original frame in order to get the benefits of 1080P/24.
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post #5 of 151 Old 11-20-2007, 09:40 AM - Thread Starter
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Reference link to displays on the list


Originally I created this list on other forums; hopefully this list will be helpful for those looking to purchase a new display that refreshes 1080P/24 signals at multiplies of the original frame. The following is a link that documents why these displays are on the list and why others are not
http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=5155
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post #6 of 151 Old 11-20-2007, 09:53 AM
 
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I wonder why Samsung is dragging their heels when the recent Sony units can churn out said output with no problem. They're using the same facility after all.
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post #7 of 151 Old 11-20-2007, 11:37 AM
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Samsung's 71 series LCDs will be getting an official firmware update soon that will remove all interpolation when AutoMotionPlus is off. A pre-release version has been unofficially leaked already.

In addition to getting rid of the "TBE", this new firmware should allow a pure 5:5 when AMP is off. With older firmware there's some unwanted interpolation going on when AMP is off, so it's technically not duplicating frames correctly.

"[Samsung]'s engineers claim that their sets perform the ideal 5:5 conversion, simply multiplying every frame; 5x24 equals 120."
http://reviews.cnet.com/flat-panel-t...-32514512.html

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post #8 of 151 Old 11-20-2007, 10:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raptor007 View Post

Samsung's 71 series LCDs will be getting an official firmware update soon that will remove all interpolation when AutoMotionPlus is off. A pre-release version has been unofficially leaked already.

In addition to getting rid of the "TBE", this new firmware should allow a pure 5:5 when AMP is off. With older firmware there's some unwanted interpolation going on when AMP is off, so it's technically not duplicating frames correctly.

"[Samsung]'s engineers claim that their sets perform the ideal 5:5 conversion, simply multiplying every frame; 5x24 equals 120."
http://reviews.cnet.com/flat-panel-t...-32514512.html

Does this mean the 69F/71F can eb made 1080P/24 via a firmware update?
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post #9 of 151 Old 11-20-2007, 10:32 PM
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Sony KDS-Z60XBR5

I believe this model, originally slated for Fall '07, was canceled.
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post #10 of 151 Old 11-20-2007, 10:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raptor007 View Post

Samsung's 71 series LCDs will be getting an official firmware update soon that will remove all interpolation when AutoMotionPlus is off. A pre-release version has been unofficially leaked already.

In addition to getting rid of the "TBE", this new firmware should allow a pure 5:5 when AMP is off. With older firmware there's some unwanted interpolation going on when AMP is off, so it's technically not duplicating frames correctly.

"[Samsung]'s engineers claim that their sets perform the ideal 5:5 conversion, simply multiplying every frame; 5x24 equals 120."
http://reviews.cnet.com/flat-panel-t...-32514512.html

Thanks for the information. As soon as I read a professional review on the new Samsung firmware once it is released or a press release I will then add the Samsung’s to the list.
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post #11 of 151 Old 11-20-2007, 10:49 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Great Gabbo View Post

Sony KDS-Z60XBR5

I believe this model, originally slated for Fall '07, was canceled.

If the 60 inch Sony model ends up being canceled I will remove it from the list. The instruction manual for the KDS-Z60XBR5 and KDS-Z70XBR5 is the same and can be found on Sony's website under specs for the 70 inch model. For some reason they do not list the 60 inch model yet.
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post #12 of 151 Old 11-20-2007, 11:35 PM
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Wrong forum...




This is the DUAL FORMAT PLAYERS forum.

Just noticed your other thread. Damn, you put a lot of work into this.
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post #13 of 151 Old 11-20-2007, 11:45 PM
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post #14 of 151 Old 11-21-2007, 08:24 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by james.92 View Post

Wrong forum...




This is the DUAL FORMAT PLAYERS forum.

Just noticed your other thread. Damn, you put a lot of work into this.

I was not sure where to post this list. I thought about posting it in one of the display forums but since I am grouping Front projection, rear projection, LCD, and Plasma in one list I did not want to create 4 separate lists. Also since this feature is only useful for BLU-RAY, HD-DVD, and dual format players I decided to post it in this area.
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post #15 of 151 Old 11-21-2007, 08:31 AM
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wrong forum
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post #16 of 151 Old 11-21-2007, 09:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HDTV1080P24 View Post

I was not sure where to post this list. I thought about posting it in one of the display forums but since I am grouping Front projection, rear projection, LCD, and Plasma in one list I did not want to create 4 separate lists. Also since this feature is only useful for BLU-RAY, HD-DVD, and dual format players I decided to post it in this area.

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post #17 of 151 Old 11-21-2007, 03:42 PM
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so what's wrong with other HDTVs claiming support 1080p but not specifiying 24p??? and how will picture be affected when you input them with the latter format???
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post #18 of 151 Old 11-21-2007, 04:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by harhash View Post

so what's wrong with other HDTVs claiming support 1080p but not specifiying 24p??? and how will picture be affected when you input them with the latter format???

The 1080P/24 feature is a minor feature that is only useful if one owns a BLU-RAY, HD-DVD, or dual format player that outputs 1080P/24. If one is only interested in watching 1080I and 720P programming from over the air broadcast, satellite, or cable then there is no reason to own a 1080P display that properly displays 1080P/24 source material.
Also if one currently owns a 1080P display that only supports 1080P/60 input they might only see a minor improvement in judder and picture quality if they upgrade their display to a true 1080P/24 display that refreshes at multiplies of the original frame.
The ideal display should be able to accept a 1080P 24/30/60 fps signal from a source that is 1080P. BLU-RAY and HD-DVD movies on the disc are encoded at 1080P/24fps. The advantage of having a display and BLU-RAY player both supporting a 24fps signal from the original source is that one bypass the need of the display or player having to do a 3:2 pull down. BLU-RAY players and HD-DVD players can introduce motion artifacts with 3:2 pull down when 24 frames is converted to 30 frames. Doing so adds six additional frames. The problem is that jitter during motion can occur. It is possible to do a reverse 3:2 pull down and go from 30 frames to 24 frames which also can lead to motion artifacts.
There are several articles in magazines like Widescreen review and Perfect vision that goes into much more detail about converting frames and the 3:2 pull down process. In general when watching BLU-RAY movies it’s better to keep the source and input for movies at 24FPS to avoid slight motion artifacts. More and more displays are converting 24FPS material to refresh rates of 48HZ, 72HZ, 96HZ, and 120HZ for maximum display quality. Flashing each frame 3, 4, or 5 times improves screen imagery that matches the quality of the original film. 35mm and 70mm film is 24fps but is flashed on the screen at 48fps or 72fps.
Many of the studio cameras broadcasters use 1080P/24 standard. 35MM and 70MM film is also converted to 1080P/24. Broadcasters do not send the signal out at 24HZ since very few monitors support 24HZ. Also the problem with 24HZ is that people would go nuts seeing their monitor flicker every few seconds. Higher refresh rates are always better. Monitors that accept 24fps input have to convert the 24HZ signal from BLU-RAY or HD-DVD players to 48HZ, 72HZ, 96HZ or 120HZ in order to eliminate the flicker of 24HZ video. Cheaper quality displays use a 3:2 pulldown process and convert 1080P/24 to 60HZ or 120HZ. When a 3:2 pulldown process is used there is no benefit to using 1080P/24. BLU-RAY and HD-DVD players that output 1080P/60 use a 3:2 pulldown process to convert 1080P/24 to 1080P/60. The higher the refresh rate the less motion artifacts one will see most of the time.
Important correction to my comments in the first paragraph

To take full advantage of BLU-RAY and HD-DVD a display that handles 1080P/24 at multiplies of the original frame is ideal. I should have also mentioned that some external and internal video processors will upconvert 480I, 480P, 720P, 1080I, and 1080P/60 to 1080P/24. For example some Toshiba HD-DVD players will up convert standard 480I DVD’s to 1080P/24 and produce a fairly good smoothing effect. So owning a true 1080P/24 display can have other benefits besides just watching 1080P/24 source material. The advantage of BLU-RAY and HD-DVD is the fact that around 99% of the discs are all encoded with 1080P/24 so no special video processing is needed like every other existing consumer broadcasts and media.
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post #19 of 151 Old 11-22-2007, 12:12 AM
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Good job HDTV1080P24. I understand the logic of omitting displays that are not 1080p resolution, but not sure I agree with it. Does the list get significantly longer if you include 720p devices? I know that would at least add a handful of Pioneer plasmas.

I think the reason that more manufacturers do not support 24fps is that it is hard to market. I mean who would want to buy a 24fps TV when you can get one that does 60fps for less money? Of course, good marketing will emphasize 72 or 120 fps. Still a hard sell and difficult to talk about at Best Buy or Circuit City.
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post #20 of 151 Old 11-22-2007, 09:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by miata View Post

Good job HDTV1080P24. I understand the logic of omitting displays that are not 1080p resolution, but not sure I agree with it. Does the list get significantly longer if you include 720p devices? I know that would at least add a handful of Pioneer plasmas.

I think the reason that more manufacturers do not support 24fps is that it is hard to market. I mean who would want to buy a 24fps TV when you can get one that does 60fps for less money? Of course, good marketing will emphasize 72 or 120 fps. Still a hard sell and difficult to talk about at Best Buy or Circuit City.

Well obviously the huge bargain in this list is the Sony A3000 at any of its 3 screen sizes. My A2000 is still one of the best TVs I've seen except for the new Kuro, XBR2 and A3000. The A3000 can be had dirt cheap if you go looking at the A3000 owner's thread (I think Sears is one of the cheapest). If you've got the shelf space the A3000 would be an amazing choice. In Canada we don't have the 3000 (nor are we getting it) so I'm looking towards the 70XBR5 but my wallet doesn't like it very much!!

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post #21 of 151 Old 11-22-2007, 10:27 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by miata View Post

Good job HDTV1080P24. I understand the logic of omitting displays that are not 1080p resolution, but not sure I agree with it. Does the list get significantly longer if you include 720p devices? I know that would at least add a handful of Pioneer plasmas.

I think the reason that more manufacturers do not support 24fps is that it is hard to market. I mean who would want to buy a 24fps TV when you can get one that does 60fps for less money? Of course, good marketing will emphasize 72 or 120 fps. Still a hard sell and difficult to talk about at Best Buy or Circuit City.

Someone else could create a list that supports 720P displays that have 1080P/24 input that refresh at multiplies of the original frame. When feed a 1080P/24 input there are some Sony LCD's and Pioneer Plasma's that will down convert the 1080P/24 signal to 720P/24 and then refresh the image at 120HZ for the Sony's and 72HZ for the Pioneer's in order to reduce judder. Only a few select 720P Sony's will do this. The Pioneer 720P Plasma's are high quality and all current models have that feature to refresh at 72HZ.
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post #22 of 151 Old 11-22-2007, 10:55 AM - Thread Starter
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Optoma HD8000 1080P Single Chip DLP Front Projector added to the list



The Optoma HD8000 1080P DLP front projector will refresh 1080P/24 material at 48HZ.

Quote
The manual mentions a 48Hz control to display 1080p/24fps inputs at a 48Hz refresh rate, but that control has been omitted. Instead, the projector automatically recognizes when it receives a 24Hz input and frame doubles it to 48Hz with no user action required.
http://ultimateavmag.com/videoprojectors/1107opt8000/index.html
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post #23 of 151 Old 11-22-2007, 11:51 AM
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Add to the list Benq W9000 and the Benq W10000.
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post #24 of 151 Old 11-22-2007, 12:25 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tolstoi View Post

Add to the list Benq W9000 and the Benq W10000.

The BENQ W9000 and W10000 have a 1080P/24 input but I am not sure what the refresh rate is. It most likely is 48HZ but I need to verify that before adding them to the list since there has been a flood of 1080P front projectors lately that only refresh at 60HZ from some companies. Do you have a web link that documents the refresh rate that these two models use?
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post #25 of 151 Old 11-22-2007, 04:17 PM - Thread Starter
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List Updated with correct refresh rates for the Sony VPL-VW60 (96HZ) and VPL-VW200 (120HZ)

I subscribe to just about every Video and Audio magazine that I am aware of like Widescreen Review, Home Theater, Perfect Vision, and various other print and electronic magazines. Once and a while people that publish these magazines make mistakes. Anymore it's getting so bad that one needs to have more then one source of information to see which review or news article contains the correct information.

For example here is a link to why the Sony front projectors were labeled at 48HZ
http://forum.hd-dvd.com/showpost.php?p=6722&postcount=46

The list now has been corrected and the Sony VPL-VW60 is labeled as 96HZ and the VPL-VW200 is 120HZ. The 120HZ for the VPL-VW200 comes from Sony's original press release.

Quote
Like the VPL-VW50, the VW60 changes its refresh rate to 96Hz and employs a "4:4 pulldown" (each frame is repeated four times) when you give it a 1080p/24 signal. I love this feature. This removes the odd judder inherent in all 24-frame-per-second content when displayed at 60Hz (thanks to 3:2 pulldown). The result is a smoother image, but without the overly smooth, artificial look that can occur when a display interpolates frames (which some 120Hz displays are now doing).

http://hometheatermag.com/frontprojectors/1107sonyvw60/
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post #26 of 151 Old 11-23-2007, 12:53 PM
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Thank you, HDTV1080P24. This is an excellent source on a subject that has bothered me for quite some time. Your explanations and clarifications are very useful.

Thanks again. I'll owe you one.

Doug
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post #27 of 151 Old 11-24-2007, 11:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HDTV1080P24 View Post

The 1080P/24 feature is a minor feature that is only useful if one owns a BLU-RAY, HD-DVD, or dual format player that outputs 1080P/24. If one is only interested in watching 1080I and 720P programming from over the air broadcast, satellite, or cable then there is no reason to own a 1080P display that properly displays 1080P/24 source material.

While the rest of your explanation is very helpful, I have to disagree with what you've said about 24 fps displays ONLY being useful for Blu-Ray or HD-DVD.

I've got an Anthem Statement D2 pre-pro with built-in video processor that can recognize 24 fps film sourced video from standard DVDs as well as 720p/1080i broadcast/satellite/cable, and convert it to 1080p/24 output. (This is more than just the 3:2 pull-down commonly used with conversion to 1080p/60.) I use a JVC DLA-RS1 (same as JVC DLA-HD1) front projector that accepts native 24fps, and it adds a very pleasing "film-like" look to standard DVDs and broadcast programming that originated as film. There may be other video processors/scalers that do this as well, if not now, but in the future. You can most easily see the difference when viewing scrolling film credits at the end of a movie; the motion is much smoother (just like at the theater).

So having a video display/projector that can properly accept 1080p/24 and display it as an integer multiple of 24fps is definitely a useful feature even if you're not getting a high-def optical disk player.

- Dave
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post #28 of 151 Old 11-24-2007, 11:40 AM
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Agreed. The Pioneer and Pioneer Elite plasmas are capable of converting 1080i film based material to 1080p/24->72fps. I would image this feature will become more common over time as displays capable of 120 fps get more popular.
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post #29 of 151 Old 11-24-2007, 01:03 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by uberanalyst View Post

While the rest of your explanation is very helpful, I have to disagree with what you've said about 24 fps displays ONLY being useful for Blu-Ray or HD-DVD.

I've got an Anthem Statement D2 pre-pro with built-in video processor that can recognize 24 fps film sourced video from standard DVDs as well as 720p/1080i broadcast/satellite/cable, and convert it to 1080p/24 output. (This is more than just the 3:2 pull-down commonly used with conversion to 1080p/60.) I use a JVC DLA-RS1 (same as JVC DLA-HD1) front projector that accepts native 24fps, and it adds a very pleasing "film-like" look to standard DVDs and broadcast programming that originated as film. There may be other video processors/scalers that do this as well, if not now, but in the future. You can most easily see the difference when viewing scrolling film credits at the end of a movie; the motion is much smoother (just like at the theater).

So having a video display/projector that can properly accept 1080p/24 and display it as an integer multiple of 24fps is definitely a useful feature even if you're not getting a high-def optical disk player.

- Dave

Your correct I forgot that some video processors can up convert standard and high definition sources to 1080P/24. For example some Toshiba HD-DVD players will up convert standard DVD's to 1080P/24 and produce a fairly good smoothing effect.
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post #30 of 151 Old 11-26-2007, 02:35 AM
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Are there 720p native displays that properly convert/display 1080p/24 material to 720p at 48/72/96/120Hz via 2:2, 3:3, 4:4, 5:5 multiples of the original frame? (I know you purposely don't include them in this list)

(To cut to the chase, the Panasonic PT-AX200U front projector in particular, which accepts 1080p24 material, but is unclear in how it displays it.)
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