Warner Blu Ray Only--End of Combo Players? - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 123 Old 01-07-2008, 07:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Floydster View Post

Not because I think Blu-ray is particularly better. We just don't need an ongoing format war.

When there is a clear winner, the general public will become interested, and the shift to HD dvds will hopefully speed up. I would like to see them replace regular DVDs entirely.

With an HD set, who wants to watch regular dvds? If I understand correctly, HD DVD is down to two studios? This is the event I have been hoping for. I will get a Blu-Ray player to go with my XBR5 that should be here in two weeks!

why? Let's put it in a corporate sphere, shall we? Companies use cost/benefit analysis as part of their business practices.....there is no benefit to the cost of Blu players at this time in my view as opposed to my present HD player, SD disks, and HD disks....Because I am a powerful consumer(the studios want my money, ya know), they will have to work hard to earn my money...If they don't, guess what, there are other methods to get movies......Let's see, Sony owns what? a CE company, a movie studio, and possibly the format that may bring HD into the home, the same company that brought you the rootkit....No thanks, they will have to EARN my trust....
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post #92 of 123 Old 01-07-2008, 08:15 PM
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Originally Posted by miata View Post

it sure as hell won't be spent on an unfinished spec, buggy BD-J infested, mess of a format..

Don

What is BD-J infested, mess of a format?

Sound and Vision said that one could buy a blu-ray and an hd-dvd player for the price of a player that would handle both formats. But, I think that until the rank and file public buy into some format, any format, the releases will continue to be few. I want to see a video rental with rows of HD discs, not a little niche in the back with a few of each format.

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post #93 of 123 Old 01-07-2008, 08:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Regan View Post

Now that Warner has gone Blu Ray only, the demise of HD DVD has begun.
Does this mean we won't be seeing new combo players going forward?


HUH?? Didn't Samsung JUST announce this new player at CES????

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=970888

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post #94 of 123 Old 01-07-2008, 09:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Floydster View Post

What is BD-J infested, mess of a format?

Sound and Vision said that one could buy a blu-ray and an hd-dvd player for the price of a player that would handle both formats. But, I think that until the rank and file public buy into some format, any format, the releases will continue to be few. I want to see a video rental with rows of HD discs, not a little niche in the back with a few of each format.

Floydster. I think you messed up your quotes. I never made such a statement. I have no problem with Blu-ray becoming the HDM standard.
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post #95 of 123 Old 01-08-2008, 04:19 AM
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Originally Posted by miata View Post

Excellent question. I was personally hoping that HDM would go the way of DVD+RW and DVD-R -- with dual format players. Unfortunately, the mass media seems to be fixated on the Beta/VHS model, and will discourage HDM adoption until there is a single format. I believe Warner and others have hard data that supports the idea that there must be a single format.

I started a thread that showed Paramount may be going Blu-Ray i.e. another possible studio defection. While I own the 5k, I am pleased that we are starting to get direction with regards to a single format (and I did not care which). The VHS/Beat confusion is valid: Consumers are confused, hi-def video hardware/software is slower than expected. The audio industry had the potential to go to a higher resolution format (SACD/DVD-Audio), and that confused people and adoption stalled (the impact of MP3 is another subject altogether). Now neither has support outside of a small group of audiophiles to the consumer electronic companies' detriment.

As for the DVD+RW and DVD-R issue, I could not be bothered with the this-one-is-better-than-that issue there also, so I buy DVD-R only because I know it will work on my systems. I don't care for the engineering minutiae that differentiates these two formats. My point being: I consciously have to make a decision which format I am supporting. This line of thinking is already influencing my DVD buying decisions. I have only one HD-DVD (Bladerunner) and the rest are all Blu-Ray.

Yes, I think we will ultimately go a single format because the content providers need more revenues given that CD sales are declining and DVD sales are flattening. Why would care that there are 2 formats, which when combined results in 0.5x sales, while if there were a single format, sales would be 2.0x (with "x" being hi-def DVD sales, and the numbers chosen to make the point).
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post #96 of 123 Old 01-08-2008, 07:11 AM
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so would it be smart ot jump on the bh200 as soon as my local BB has one in stock as i have ablut 7 hddvd?

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post #97 of 123 Old 01-08-2008, 07:49 AM
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I haven't seen this question posed before, so here goes.

Does anyone think that the popularity of combo players has been a catalyst in polarizing studios that were straddling the format fence?

Perhaps Paramount and now Warner, saw the increasing interest and market potential for these combo players.

Furthermore, they saw such devices as only extending the format war, and these studios simply did not wish or plan to support/manufacture two formats for every title indefinitely?

Spence

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post #98 of 123 Old 01-08-2008, 09:33 AM
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Found this on Gizmodo;
http://gizmodo.com/341906/interview-...ood-for-hd-dvd

Seems Samsung think HD DVD is dead movie vise, but think HD DVD might be the choice for personal/PC movie storage.

Quote:


Upswing: Samsung's going to be keep pumping out dual-format players, so that people can easily watch the personal stuff and the Hollywood stuff on the same deck. "Most people...don't care about what format is most popular," says Jun.



JanOve
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post #99 of 123 Old 01-08-2008, 10:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kruginator View Post

As for the DVD+RW and DVD-R issue, I could not be bothered with the this-one-is-better-than-that issue there also, so I buy DVD-R only because I know it will work on my systems. I don't care for the engineering minutiae that differentiates these two formats. My point being: I consciously have to make a decision which format I am supporting. This line of thinking is already influencing my DVD buying decisions. I have only one HD-DVD (Bladerunner) and the rest are all Blu-Ray.

Yes, I think we will ultimately go a single format because the content providers need more revenues given that CD sales are declining and DVD sales are flattening. Why would care that there are 2 formats, which when combined results in 0.5x sales, while if there were a single format, sales would be 2.0x (with "x" being hi-def DVD sales, and the numbers chosen to make the point).

I think you miss the point.

Does anyone even care if only DVD-R is the only one being produced (or is it DVD+R? I have no idea). The PLAYERS all take both so that the consumer doesn't have to worry about converting, or anything actually.

Since chipsets have been developed that support both (and will shortly cost the same as those that support blu only), why not use them? It's not like you're going to be adding features to the HD DVD side, but why not support the legacy discs?

Or is the idea to punish those that "chose wrong"? Spite is really the only reason not to include legacy modes when it costs little or nothing.
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post #100 of 123 Old 01-08-2008, 11:04 AM
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End of combo players? Hardly. Even if HD-DVD died right now (which it hasn't), I don't see why that'd end combo players. Many consumers have existing HD-DVD libraries; some of them quite large. A combo player is the easiest way to migrate these people to Blu-ray.

I would say reports of HD-DVD's death have been greatly exaggerated. It's not likely to win, but that doesn't guarantee that it'll go away either. The extremely similar nature of these formats makes it much more likely that HD-DVD will stick around as a secondary format and that combo players will prevail.

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post #101 of 123 Old 01-08-2008, 11:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Raptor007 View Post

End of combo players? Hardly. Even if HD-DVD died right now (which it hasn't), I don't see why that'd end combo players. Many consumers have existing HD-DVD libraries; some of them quite large. A combo player is the easiest way to migrate these people to Blu-ray.

I disagree. The easiest way for these people to migrate is to simply buy a Bluray player. They already have a player capable of playing HD-DVD's, why would they need another?
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post #102 of 123 Old 01-08-2008, 11:51 AM
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Originally Posted by dkwong View Post

I disagree. The easiest way for these people to migrate is to simply buy a Bluray player. They already have a player capable of playing HD-DVD's, why would they need another?

Note to begin with we are not talking about the $200 players we need to keep, but the disc collection, which could easily have cost over $1000.

Issues:

1) Most TVs have two HDMI inputs. One for cable, one for HDM. Out of ports, even if one wanted to live with 2-channel sound. And perhaps one has other devices, like multiple DVRs.

2) Same for AV receivers, at least under $1000, Only two HDMI inputs at best. HDMI 1.3 only if you're lucky.

3) People with older expensive AV receivers (pre-HDMI 1.3) or too few HDMI ports (or none) have two options: use optical audio inputs that top out at DTS Core (1.5Mbs), or use 5.1 or 7.1 analog inputs (of which there is invariably a single set).

Now one could upgrade their AV receiver, but that can be an expense greater than all the rest (a new Sony that has 3 HDMI 1.3 inputs is $1000 and that's about the bottom of the barrel with that spec).

For me and for others, the best solution seems to be a good, full audio decoder set, dual-format player with 7.1 analog out. That way my 3 year old $1600 Denon receiver isn't trash, I get to enjoy the new blu-ray world, and I keep my 61 HD DVDs that cost me quite a bit.
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post #103 of 123 Old 01-08-2008, 12:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kcmurphy88 View Post

For me and for others, the best solution seems to be a good, full audio decoder set, dual-format player with 7.1 analog out. That way my 3 year old $1600 Denon receiver isn't trash, I get to enjoy the new blu-ray world, and I keep my 61 HD DVDs that cost me quite a bit.

That may be the best solution, but you were referring to the easiest solution above. I still think the easiest is to get a standalone Bluray player. And if you're out of HDMI ports, there's always component to fall back upon. I honestly think that the market for dual format players will be miniscule and may not be large enough for manufacturers to continue to pursue.
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post #104 of 123 Old 01-08-2008, 12:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dkwong View Post

That may be the best solution, but you were referring to the easiest solution above. I still think the easiest is to get a standalone Bluray player. And if you're out of HDMI ports, there's always component to fall back upon. I honestly think that the market for dual format players will be miniscule and may not be large enough for manufacturers to continue to pursue.

I don't know if downrezzing was the issue, but on the Moody Blues HDDVD, component looked noticalbly bad compared to HDMI?

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post #105 of 123 Old 01-08-2008, 12:36 PM
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Originally Posted by wabkab View Post

I don't know if downrezzing was the issue, but on the Moody Blues HDDVD, component looked noticalbly bad compared to HDMI?

HDDVD content should not be downres'ed over component. It should be 1080p as well. Perhaps the display doesn't handle analog content as well as digital?
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post #106 of 123 Old 01-08-2008, 12:46 PM
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The only market now for dual format players will be existing HD DVD owners.

My mom works for Sony, and she brought home a copy of "Starhawk BETA"
I quickly slipped it into my trusty PS3, and started playing.


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post #107 of 123 Old 01-08-2008, 01:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eddy_winds View Post

The only market now for dual format players will be existing HD DVD owners.

Which is apparently a market of 1M plus consumers in North America alone, most of whom would love a DF player.
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post #108 of 123 Old 01-08-2008, 02:29 PM
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Originally Posted by blackkat98 View Post

Why does everyone refer to these as coasters??? I am a proud HD DVD owner and I will still be watching my beloved discs in 1-2 years time.

Not like I'm going to say, "Oh no honey! We can't put that lowly HD DVD in our player. They don't make those anymore and it will blow up our theater if we press play."

Coasters lol. We already have players that don't discriminate between the discs. It's only going to get less expensive to make df players not more.

Calling HD-DVD's "coasters" are really laughable. Neither side was ever going to end up like that because there will continue to be solutions to play both.
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post #109 of 123 Old 01-08-2008, 04:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dkwong View Post

That may be the best solution, but you were referring to the easiest solution above. I still think the easiest is to get a standalone Bluray player. And if you're out of HDMI ports, there's always component to fall back upon. I honestly think that the market for dual format players will be miniscule and may not be large enough for manufacturers to continue to pursue.

Component doesn't solve the audio issue. The only way to get full audio is through analog 5.1 or through HDMI. The AV receiver is usally the bottleneck and a real expense to upgrade. A single player with analog out allows an AV receiver with no HDMI to still be quite useful.
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post #110 of 123 Old 01-08-2008, 04:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kcmurphy88 View Post

Component doesn't solve the audio issue. The only way to get full audio is through analog 5.1 or through HDMI. The AV receiver is usally the bottleneck and a real expense to upgrade. A single player with analog out allows an AV receiver with no HDMI to still be quite useful.

In addition to that, I had heard that component could also be "down-rez'd" via DRM settings in the future.

...at least that is what has been discussed regarding component connections and satellite receivers.

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post #111 of 123 Old 01-08-2008, 04:53 PM
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If the rumours we're hearing about Universal and Paramount are true, I'd have to think the dual disc player will stay on shelfs for this manufacturing run, then end. This would give HD-DVD owners a way to play the 4-500 titles on HD-DVD then move over to BD.
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post #112 of 123 Old 01-08-2008, 08:41 PM
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Originally Posted by SpenceJT View Post

In addition to that, I had heard that component could also be "down-rez'd" via DRM settings in the future.

...at least that is what has been discussed regarding component connections and satellite receivers.

Both sides promised not to do that for competitive reasons ... that no longer exist.
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post #113 of 123 Old 01-08-2008, 08:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KennyG View Post

If the rumours we're hearing about Universal and Paramount are true, I'd have to think the dual disc player will stay on shelfs for this manufacturing run, then end. This would give HD-DVD owners a way to play the 4-500 titles on HD-DVD then move over to BD.

Like many blu-ray owners, you miss the point. Analyze this as if you had an HD DVD collection instead, and it was inconvenient to have two players.
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post #114 of 123 Old 01-09-2008, 04:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kcmurphy88 View Post

Like many blu-ray owners, you miss the point. Analyze this as if you had an HD DVD collection instead, and it was inconvenient to have two players.

For those who might be wondering why we've not seen more players with capability of both SACD and DVD Audio playback (as a analog to the current discussion) keep in mind that neither SACD or DVD Audio formats reached the market penetration of Blu-ray and HD DVD.

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post #115 of 123 Old 01-09-2008, 12:02 PM
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It will be interesting to see what happens regarding the combo players. What I do know is that none of my friends or any of my family have an HD player. Most are just now getting HD TVs and several are just now getting HD via satellite. Mostly because they have seen it at my house. Given this news I would expect all of them to go BD in the next 6 months to 2 years. Probably when we hit the critical numbers mentioned it the Samsung interview above. I just ordered a Dell with a BD burner. Not because I choose it over HD DVD (I don't care which wins) but because that is what they offered and I have had good success with Dells. I guess I will start research how to produce BD disks with my new HD camcorder. Oh, which is AVCHD and is basically compatible with BD. I don't know about you, but I sure feel like I am being pushed in one direction...
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post #116 of 123 Old 01-09-2008, 12:09 PM
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Originally Posted by kcmurphy88 View Post

I think you miss the point.

Does anyone even care if only DVD-R is the only one being produced (or is it DVD+R? I have no idea). The PLAYERS all take both so that the consumer doesn't have to worry about converting, or anything actually.

Since chipsets have been developed that support both (and will shortly cost the same as those that support blu only), why not use them? It's not like you're going to be adding features to the HD DVD side, but why not support the legacy discs?

Or is the idea to punish those that "chose wrong"? Spite is really the only reason not to include legacy modes when it costs little or nothing.

No, my point was: when you have 2 standards, especially one in the nascent stage of introduction (like hi-def DVDs), a consumer can mitigate adoption risk by buying a dual format player. However, at the back of mind is always the question: which format could win? And it is the answer to that question that could influence which disk format disk you purchase. Currently, I own more Blu-Ray DVDs than HD-DVDs. In other words, by passive actions (not buying as many HD-DVDs as Blu-Ray), you could influence perception and perhaps maybe even ultimate adoption.

With regards to the fact that there are chipsets that support both formats, unfortunately you do not have the majority of OEMs on your side. The OEMs have selected which single format they are supporting. It is only the opportunistic Samsung and LG that have introduced end products that support both formats. And I don't use "opportunistic" negatively, with the information that they possessed at product development stage (presumably, that hi-def format war was going to continue for some time), they made a business decision to go format neutral.

On the other hand, Sony/Pioneer/Panasonic et al stuck to their guns (as has Toshiba) and they will NEVER support HD-DVD (Toshiba excluded, of course), irrespective of the logic trying to justify to the contrary. The point being: these parties have vested interests and will not be accommodating.

Your reference to "spite", is a little silly. If you develop a technology at great expense and you think it is the best, why would you accommodate someone else's competing technology? Capitalism does not work that way.

I have chosen to go format neutral but realise that at this stage of the game the Blu-Ray/HD-DVD format war could still go either way. Despite all the above, I am happy with my 5k in that it will allow me to watch the few HD-DVDs that I will purchase/watch.
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post #117 of 123 Old 01-09-2008, 01:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kruginator View Post

On the other hand, Sony/Pioneer/Panasonic et al stuck to their guns (as has Toshiba) and they will NEVER support HD-DVD (Toshiba excluded, of course), irrespective of the logic trying to justify to the contrary. The point being: these parties have vested interests and will not be accommodating.

that's certainly true for now, but once blu ray is universally acknowledged to have won, it wouldn't be so much accommodating, as it would be differentiating your player from sony's bd-only player. after all, there are 1,000,000 hd dvd owners that will need a new player at some point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kruginator View Post

Your reference to "spite", is a little silly. If you develop a technology at great expense and you think it is the best, why would you accommodate someone else's competing technology? Capitalism does not work that way.

because it may be easier to get a leg up on the competition by spending an extra $25 to build a true universal player than it would be to gain purely through marketing. hd dvd won't be "competing" with bd for much longer.

otoh i guess sony never offered dvd-a support, and panasonic never offered sacd support. which is why i own a denon

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post #118 of 123 Old 01-09-2008, 04:34 PM
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Originally Posted by tostitobandito View Post

This is a step in the right direction, but I strongly disagree that this is the end of the format war. HD-DVD will be around for a while longer, even with only two studios (though who knows what other announcements will come at CES). This news will hurt the standalone HD-DVD player market much worse than the DF player market. Since there is so much HD-DVD media out there already and much more likely to come in 2008 and possibly beyond, there will definitely still be a market for reasonably priced DF players.

I totally agree with you.
Toshiba and MS has spent enoumous money on HD-DVD format, they can not give it up.
They 'll try to keep it at any cost.
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post #119 of 123 Old 01-09-2008, 05:23 PM
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if hd dvd tanks toshiba will produce a df player for awhile.

but hd dvd will most likely last through the year if not just stay around forever. If it only lasts through the year we will most likely see df players at least through 2009 or mabye even 2010 . I have my first dvd player still which was 97. So if i can buy a df player in 2010 i'd have to give up on hd dvd in 2020. Thats fine, I'll be 39.... dang i will be old
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post #120 of 123 Old 01-09-2008, 07:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kcmurphy88 View Post

Like many blu-ray owners, you miss the point. Analyze this as if you had an HD DVD collection instead, and it was inconvenient to have two players.

No actually I haven't missed the point, but it doesn't surprise me you'd speak without knowing me, or my situation
I owned both a X2 AND a Samsung 1200, the X2 was sold the day after WB made their announcement, the titles have been selling at a somewhat slower pace.
In fact, it was inconvenient to have both players, and I WAS planning to buy the Sammy 5000, mainly for my wife who can't seem to figure out which disc goes in which player. ("now which one takes the brown ray")
I am just glad the Sammy pushed the release date of that player back, as it has saved me money.
As a huge fan of both movies (over 800 DVD's) and HD, I think this is great news for those of us with big enough displays to "need" the resolution of HD.
We have all rolled the dice, and we all knew that eventually one format would have to win out to keep HD disc alive, we also knew it would have to happen sooner than later, because as technology marches on, it won't be many more years and HD downloading will become the format of choice for the masses, which will, or may, send HD disc into niche market status again.
The dual format player will have it's place for a little while, but as HD-DVD fades, so will the dual format player.
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