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post #31 of 42 Old 12-05-2013, 05:23 AM
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My wife and I showed Paso Fino horses many years ago. Much different from audio. The problem with showing horses is subjectivism coupled with politics. The last show we attended was the national show. In one event the clear winner was a 17 year old girl. Every single person I spoke with agreed that she won the event cleanly and clearly. Yet she finished third behind 2 major breeders. The girl was thrilled to death with her ribbon. But she was robbed because of association politics. We never showed again. At least in audio, people do it to themselves. The big problem is that the industry preys (with good intentions I think) on human hearing bias. Much more personal than showing horses.
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post #32 of 42 Old 12-05-2013, 08:09 AM
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Originally Posted by FMW View Post

My wife and I showed Paso Fino horses many years ago. Much different from audio. The problem with showing horses is subjectivism coupled with politics. The last show we attended was the national show. In one event the clear winner was a 17 year old girl. Every single person I spoke with agreed that she won the event cleanly and clearly. Yet she finished third behind 2 major breeders. The girl was thrilled to death with her ribbon. But she was robbed because of association politics. We never showed again. At least in audio, people do it to themselves. The big problem is that the industry preys (with good intentions I think) on human hearing bias. Much more personal than showing horses.

I'm particularly interested in the comment "that the industry preys (with good intentions I think) on human hearing bias."

That would imply that manufacturers of the high end gear are unaware that their expensive products offer no audible benefit. I think that represents a huge leap of faith. Personally, I'm much more cynical, and tend to believe they know full well what they are doing.

I'm curious as to how you might believe they are truly offering products with honest motives. Have they imbibed of the Kool-Aid heavily enough to actually believe in their subjective perceptions?

Jay

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post #33 of 42 Old 12-05-2013, 09:34 AM
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From what I've seen, I'd say many of them either drink their own Kool-Aid or are very, very good actors. I'm not sure how you'd figure out which—or whether it matters.

If you can't explain how it works, you can't say it doesn't.—The High-End Creed

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post #34 of 42 Old 12-05-2013, 09:51 AM
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No, I think they believe that their products have superior sound reproduction. That is why it is well intentioned. I don't think any of them have ever done a bias controlled listening test or would accept the results of one if they did. But they still prey on human hearing bias without intending to.

You could be right, though. I guess I'm not cynical enough to believe that people would launch a business model based on lies. There are all kinds of high end products that sell without the lie. High end watches, purses etc are sold without any confusion on the part of the consumer about how they perform.

It is pretty hard to swallow the marketing of high end cable manufacturers as well meaning. I'll grant you that.
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post #35 of 42 Old 12-05-2013, 06:03 PM
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Originally Posted by FMW View Post

No, I think they believe that their products have superior sound reproduction. That is why it is well intentioned. I don't think any of them have ever done a bias controlled listening test or would accept the results of one if they did. But they still prey on human hearing bias without intending to.

You could be right, though. I guess I'm not cynical enough to believe that people would launch a business model based on lies. There are all kinds of high end products that sell without the lie. High end watches, purses etc are sold without any confusion on the part of the consumer about how they perform.

It is pretty hard to swallow the marketing of high end cable manufacturers as well meaning. I'll grant you that.

I'd be willing to bet that some know their products in reality provide zero sonic benefit, but who have a viable business - and willing customers.
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post #36 of 42 Old 12-05-2013, 06:37 PM
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I'd bet that most do believe there are benefits, and that they sell truth.
Its in our "make up" to buy into something when theres a "gathering of believers"
Just count the churches in your city.....a viable business with willing customers.
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post #37 of 42 Old 12-06-2013, 05:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FMW View Post

My wife and I showed Paso Fino horses many years ago. Much different from audio. The problem with showing horses is subjectivism coupled with politics. The last show we attended was the national show. In one event the clear winner was a 17 year old girl. Every single person I spoke with agreed that she won the event cleanly and clearly. Yet she finished third behind 2 major breeders. The girl was thrilled to death with her ribbon. But she was robbed because of association politics. We never showed again. At least in audio, people do it to themselves. The big problem is that the industry preys (with good intentions I think) on human hearing bias. Much more personal than showing horses.

IME it is all about community standards and preferences, and they vary depending where you are.

Around here it is all about boats, cottages, and lots on the water. When I worked in San Diego I was introduced to "Horse lots" and the like.

There is this tendency to label the familiar as normal and the unfamiliar as nuts.
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post #38 of 42 Old 12-06-2013, 06:11 AM
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Originally Posted by mcnarus View Post

From what I've seen, I'd say many of them either drink their own Kool-Aid or are very, very good actors. I'm not sure how you'd figure out which—or whether it matters.

The intellectual key to this game is understanding the connection between performance and the appearance of performance, with actual real world sound quality which relates to psychoacoustics. I think it was very telling when I read in an article by a well-known high end audio journalist that a certain famous audio engineer who designs high end products is among the very few engineers in high end audio that has formal training in psychoacoustics. If you know high end personality resumes, you know that even degreed engineers are not all that common. So this guy is doubly rare! Look him up and find that he started his firm in 1977 which means that he probably studied psychoacoustics well before its golden age, which was arguably in the late 1980s and early 1990s.

I have no problems arguing against the ignorance defense as applied to people who set themselves up as world-class authorities, It is up to us to keep our knowledge bases current.
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post #39 of 42 Old 12-06-2013, 04:35 PM
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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

The intellectual key to this game is understanding the connection between performance and the appearance of performance, with actual real world sound quality which relates to psychoacoustics. I think it was very telling when I read in an article by a well-known high end audio journalist that a certain famous audio engineer who designs high end products is among the very few engineers in high end audio that has formal training in psychoacoustics. If you know high end personality resumes, you know that even degreed engineers are not all that common. So this guy is doubly rare! Look him up and find that he started his firm in 1977 which means that he probably studied psychoacoustics well before its golden age, which was arguably in the late 1980s and early 1990s.

I have no problems arguing against the ignorance defense as applied to people who set themselves up as world-class authorities, It is up to us to keep our knowledge bases current.

You have touched on a couple of my thoughts, the first being I would have expected that most of the high end gear mfgs. would have electrical engineering degrees. I expect anyone with an engineering background to hold scientific methods in the highest regard. Secondly, as you also touched upon, psychoacoustics is a well enough researched subject by those in the audio community that it's illogical to think that these folks are unaware of hearing biases, and unlikely they would not have been at least curious enough to test some of these theories for themselves.

The repackaging of mass marketed electronics in expensive cases, is evidence enough for me that subterfuge is a true, and real facet of the "high end" model (not EVEN taking into account the cable nonsense). True, making rash generalizations is an unwise practice. I am not in the business, and have no long standing relationships with anyone that is. I am more curious than knowledgeable, and a little bit dismayed by an industry that does seem to prey on their customers to such an extraordinary degree.

Jay

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post #40 of 42 Old 12-08-2013, 10:26 AM
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I was the original poster would read this, so he could answer my questions that made me revive the discussion, as it's has gone very off-topic now with horse racing and how high end producers take advante og people :(

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post #41 of 42 Old 12-08-2013, 10:31 AM
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"I was the original poster would read this"

This should have said "I HOPE the original poster..."

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post #42 of 42 Old 12-08-2013, 06:34 PM
 
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Try to pm them. They'll get an email alert. Best of luck. smile.gif
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