WOW.... What a difference in Amps!! - Page 9 - AVS Forum
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post #241 of 664 Old 10-30-2009, 09:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Veda View Post

"That's your belief and you're entitled to it."

Still doesn't get you off the hook for your wannabe scientist remark.

I happen to be a scientist, are you?

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post #242 of 664 Old 10-30-2009, 09:57 AM
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Amazing to me how many people around here are scientists and/or engineers. Damn, its looks to be around 90% of the members!
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post #243 of 664 Old 10-30-2009, 10:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Lhasa-lover View Post

Amazing to me how many people around here are scientists and/or engineers. Damn, its looks to be around 90% of the members!

I doubt it's that high, but I'm not surprised that it would be higher here than average on the audio forums in general, especially as it's the AVScience forum.

Are you an engineer?
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post #244 of 664 Old 10-30-2009, 03:28 PM
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Originally Posted by sunshdw View Post

.....and will lay claim they know everything

The best description of an "audiophile" that I've seen, BRAVO!!

No, the people that claim they know "everything" certainly can not be limited to the audiophile community. They have no stranglehold in that regard, as there is no seeming lack of pomposity by a certain few on this board who seem to come at it from a different angle.
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post #245 of 664 Old 10-30-2009, 03:38 PM
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Originally Posted by par4 View Post

No, the people that claim they know "everything" certainly can not be limited to the audiophile community. They have no stranglehold in that regard, as there is no seeming lack of pomposity by a certain few on this board who seem to come at it from a different angle.

Agreed, just my opinion though
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post #246 of 664 Old 10-30-2009, 03:45 PM
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Originally Posted by penngray View Post

Interesting, 99% of all salesmen are not helpful. They are doing their job to make money and they honestly care little about you are your needs

When buying a used car the last thing anyone does is ask the Salesmen (My brother owns a dealership). There is so much data about the car out there that there is no need for a salesmen.

Buying a car online or even better wholesale at an auction is rather easy for some of us

The same is true about audio for some that have educated themselves enough.

99%...... Really? And is there some problem with sales people trying to earn a living?
To throw all sales people under the bus for a few admittedly bad apples (okay, VERY bad apples) is wrong. There are some very competent people in sales at all levels, and thank the lord that we still live in a country where they are "allowed" to make a buck.
If you do your due diligence on any prospective purchase, the sales staff should be there to help, not hinder. If you encounter incompetence by a particular sales person, the penalty they pay (or the store pays) is swift and just- they lose your business.

In a capitalist society, no sales = no revenue = no demand = no jobs = no taxes collected = END OF STORY. And then our posts on this forum would look a WHOLE lot different than they do now.
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post #247 of 664 Old 10-30-2009, 04:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by par4 View Post

99%...... Really? And is there some problem with sales people trying to earn a living?
To throw all sales people under the bus for a few admittedly bad apples (okay, VERY bad apples) is wrong. There are some very competent people in sales at all levels, and thank the lord that we still live in a country where they are "allowed" to make a buck.
If you do your due diligence on any prospective purchase, the sales staff should be there to help, not hinder. If you encounter incompetence by a particular sales person, the penalty they pay (or the store pays) is swift and just- they lose your business.

In a capitalist society, no sales = no revenue = no demand = no jobs = no taxes collected = END OF STORY. And then our posts on this forum would look a WHOLE lot different than they do now.

+1

And let's not forget his brother is part of the 1%. I'm sure that's coming.
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post #248 of 664 Old 10-30-2009, 05:05 PM
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Originally Posted by CruelInventions View Post


....

I recall reading something about the cognitive process and how we like to think that we come to form our beliefs and positions from an intellectual basis, but more often, it's the emotional response which comes first and our mind then constructs the arguments and logic to support that instinctive or emotional response, not the other way around. We like to think we are being all objective, but in actuality, we are not. Maybe that's part of the problem here. And, it's why attempting to approach these matters with at least some modicum of scientific orientation is to be commended, not derided.

Outstanding post. It is quite humbling to investigate and discover just how vulnerable we all are to cognitive and perceptual errors. We don't think quite how probably most of us think we do.

A better understanding of cognitive processes among posters would go a long way toward rendering many of the discussions at even this audio video science forum moot.

Bottom line: Don't always trust what your senses tell you and what you think you know at face value.
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post #249 of 664 Old 10-30-2009, 05:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Will2007 View Post

....
Bottom line: Don't always trust what your senses tell you and what you think you know at face value.

Just don't leave your hand on that hot burner too long
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post #250 of 664 Old 10-30-2009, 06:39 PM
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i'm an engineer but don't know anything about audio. but i do know some audio engineers to get helpful tips/info.

lots knowledge ppl here, just have to read lot and do some filtering :P

Quote:
Originally Posted by A9X-308 View Post

I doubt it's that high, but I'm not surprised that it would be higher here than average on the audio forums in general, especially as it's the AVScience forum.

Are you an engineer?


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post #251 of 664 Old 10-30-2009, 07:25 PM
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Originally Posted by CharlesJ View Post

Just don't leave your hand on that hot burner too long

They do come in handy sometimes, don't they?
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post #252 of 664 Old 10-30-2009, 08:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Canoga56 View Post

+1

And let's not forget his brother is part of the 1%. I'm sure that's coming.

Nope he is part of the 99%, their goal is to make a living and that is over top of what your true needs are.

They believe that if you can afford something then they have the right to try and sell you on it.

btw, I think you guys misread and twisted what Im saying. I have ZERO problem with sales people or capitalism, Im a greedy capitalist (I work for myself) which is a good thing but every consumer should know that everyone like myself is out to make money.

We provide the service/product at maximum $$$ we can get and its the customers job to get the best service/produce for a minimum $$$.

Back to why sales people are not helpful IMO, their goal tends to be one of a profit oriented nature (go figure) so the more they teach you about audio the less probability they have on upselling you on those power cables, interconnects that they make 400% markup on

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post #253 of 664 Old 10-30-2009, 09:19 PM
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Originally Posted by penngray View Post

Nope he is part of the 99%, their goal is to make a living and that is over top of what your true needs are.

They believe that if you can afford something then they have the right to try and sell you on it.

btw, I think you guys misread and twisted what Im saying. I have ZERO problem with sales people or capitalism, Im a greedy capitalist (I work for myself) which is a good thing but every consumer should know that everyone like myself is out to make money.

We provide the service/product at maximum $$$ we can get and its the customers job to get the best service/produce for a minimum $$$.

Back to why sales people are not helpful IMO, their goal tends to be one of a profit oriented nature (go figure) so the more they teach you about audio the less probability they have on upselling you on those power cables, interconnects that they make 400% markup on

Uhh...... run that by me one more time.
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post #254 of 664 Old 10-31-2009, 07:35 AM
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Originally Posted by par4 View Post

Uhh...... run that by me one more time.

A salesmen's just is to sell and make money for the company and for himself. That overrides educating people what truely matters so in the end they are only helpful enough to get your money. That is their goal.

Its not that hard to understand. I do not fault them because I believe in Caveat Emptor. I believe if someone really cares they come on a forum like this for education, in about 1 month of research and advice from here a person will know more then a large majority of audio sales people....that is saying something about them

In the end online will be the medium of the future and Im happy its happening! Audio sales people to me are like travel agents both are in a job that was and is obsolete. Of course I write software for a living and I tend to automate many things eliminating the need for labor so have seen the internet possibilities for 15 years now.

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post #255 of 664 Old 10-31-2009, 07:56 AM
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Originally Posted by penngray View Post

A salesmen's just is to sell and make money for the company and for himself. That overrides educating people what truely matters so in the end they are only helpful enough to get your money. That is their goal.

Its not that hard to understand. I do not fault them because I believe in Caveat Emptor. I believe if someone really cares they come on a forum like this for education, in about 1 month of research and advice from here a person will know more then a large majority of audio sales people....that is saying something about them

In the end online will be the medium of the future and Im happy its happening! Audio sales people to me are like travel agents both are in a job that was and is obsolete. Of course I write software for a living and I tend to automate many things eliminating the need for labor so have seen the internet possibilities for 15 years now.

No, it certainly is not that hard to understand. In fact, I believe everyone who has read your posts understands EXACTLY where you're coming from.......
I wish you luck.
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post #256 of 664 Old 10-31-2009, 09:36 AM
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Originally Posted by mcnarus View Post

I could never understand why somebody would take up a technical hobby, and then choose to remain totally ignorant about the science behind it.

I think the science behind high end audio is important as you stated, when new improved technology is introduced we evaluate it and determine if it is important enough to consider an upgrade. Where I agree that it is important to stay up on the technical or science side of this hobby, to me it is only a starting point in my quest for upgrade or new equipment. The technical information will give us the capabilities of the equipment and to some degree how it MIGHT sound. I have purchased few components and zero speakers with out first bringing them home for evaluation with my room and existing stuff. This is as controlled of an evaluation as I can get. Short of new technology such as HDMI, DTSMA and Dolby True HD with home theater equipment, I have not pulled the trigger on something new just because of its specs. This is a hobby as mcnarus has stated, to me it is way fun, I visit dealers on a regular basis to listen and see what is new, I review specs and so called professional reviews but my ears and senses will decide what stays and what goes back.

Mike
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post #257 of 664 Old 10-31-2009, 09:44 AM
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I think the science behind high end audio is important as you stated, when new improved technology is introduced we evaluate it and determine if it is important enough to consider an upgrade. Where I agree that it is important to stay up on the technical or science side of this hobby, to me it is only a starting point in my quest for upgrade or new equipment. The technical information will give us the capabilities of the equipment and to some degree how it MIGHT sound. I have purchased few components and zero speakers with out first bringing them home for evaluation with my room and existing stuff. This is as controlled of an evaluation as I can get. Short of new technology such as HDMI, DTSMA and Dolby True HD with home theater equipment, I have not pulled the trigger on something new just because of its specs. This is a hobby as mcnarus has stated, to me it is way fun, I visit dealers on a regular basis to listen and see what is new, I review specs and so called professional reviews but my ears and senses will decide what stays and what goes back.

Ears...... senses........? Oh my. Sounds like you've opened up a spooktacular can of worms here on this all-hallowed forum.
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post #258 of 664 Old 10-31-2009, 11:17 AM
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Ears...... senses........? Oh my. Sounds like you've opened up a spooktacular can of worms here on this all-hallowed forum.

You do realize that no one cares what people use to make a purchase? You can purchase anything you want.

Just do not post on a science forum what you concluded when your conclusions are from uncontrolled tests. Those conclusion could mislead people and no one wants that do they?

Maybe we should have a Subjectivity Forum, Call it Subjective Audio Review . One of the rules for that forum could be to not allow the same old debates to start. Im all for it, Im being honest and not trying to deem anything because I know people do shop based on subjective reviews and its feeds their imagination which isnt all bad.

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post #259 of 664 Old 10-31-2009, 12:09 PM
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Originally Posted by penngray View Post

You do realize that no one cares what people use to make a purchase? You can purchase anything you want.

Just do not post on a science forum what you concluded when your conclusions are from uncontrolled tests. Those conclusion could mislead people and no one wants that do they?

Maybe we should have a Subjectivity Forum, Call it Subjective Audio Review . One of the rules for that forum could be to not allow the same old debates to start. Im all for it, Im being honest and not trying to deem anything because I know people do shop based on subjective reviews and its feeds their imagination which isnt all bad.

Yes, we certainly don't want anybody concluding ANYTHING from an uncontrolled test. From this point forward ALL conclusions have to be concluded from controlled tests, where the subjects will be allowed to freely conclude whatever they conclude in a highly structured double blind, matched volume, temperature and humidity regulated smoke free environment. There they can without any encumbrances deem once and for all whether they can ascertain any sonic or auditory differences whatsoever between the components to be evaluated. The subjects will be allowed as much time as it takes to formulate an opinion based on their listening tests using their own ears...... their.... own.... ears..... their own highly... questionable... hearing, which can't be trusted due to hearing irregularities, misconceived perceptions, and basically just the failings of the human mind to accurately detect on an objective basis with any degree of certainty the variations that may or may not exist from one component to the next regarding the reproduction of a musical note.

Unless of course we call upon those subjects the government keeps in a warehouse in New Mexico, you know, the people with perfect hearing who have never been exposed to marketing of any sort or have never been allowed to fraternize with other uhh, imperfect humans........ we can definitely trust their subjective observations during this exercise in objectivity. Can't we?
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post #260 of 664 Old 10-31-2009, 01:58 PM
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Originally Posted by penngray View Post

A salesmen's just is to sell and make money for the company and for himself. That overrides educating people what truely matters so in the end they are only helpful enough to get your money. That is their goal.

What an incredibly short sighted goal. Selling product is a good place to start, but what you really want to do is sell people on yourself/yourcompany. Then they keep coming back, and send their friends. What matters is not the sale, what matters is that you educate them enough so they realize you are the BEST at what you do and they search you down when they want to buy more.

Everything I say here is my opinion. It is not my employers opinion, it is not my wife's opinion, it is not my neighbors opinion, it is My Opinion.
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post #261 of 664 Old 10-31-2009, 02:08 PM
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I do use my ears for listening to music.

....and I do want opinion from both sides :P

I see the atoms free and fine,

That bubble like a sparkling wine;
I see the songs Electrons sing,
Jumping from ring to outer ring;
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post #262 of 664 Old 10-31-2009, 02:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

Just do not post on a science forum what you concluded when your conclusions are from uncontrolled tests. Those conclusion could mislead people and no one wants that do they?

Maybe we should have a Subjectivity Forum, Call it Subjective Audio Review . One of the rules for that forum could be to not allow the same old debates to start. Im all for it, Im being honest and not trying to deem anything because I know people do shop based on subjective reviews and its feeds their imagination which isnt all bad.

penngray, could you explain how you scientifically evaluate your DIY speaker builds? I would love to see some anechoic measurements. On and off axis FR, vertical and horizontal. Spectral decay plot. Impedance curves. Etc..

But I suspect you evaluate your speaker builds subjectively, right? As is the case with most any DIYer, right?

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1159390

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post #263 of 664 Old 10-31-2009, 03:25 PM
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Originally Posted by penngray View Post

You do realize that no one cares what people use to make a purchase?

That has not been my experience on this site.
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post #264 of 664 Old 10-31-2009, 03:43 PM
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Originally Posted by penngray View Post

Maybe we should have a Subjectivity Forum, Call it Subjective Audio Review .

If you're talking about another sub-forum like this one, then this one should also be re-named "Objective Audio Review".

Then they'd also have to separate every other audio and video sub-forum on this forum into the same categories.

Don't think they're gonna do that, so I think people will just have to agree to disagree and be civil about it.
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post #265 of 664 Old 10-31-2009, 03:43 PM
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A salesmen's just is to sell and make money for the company...that overrides educating people...what truely matters is to get your money.

Wow. You claim to own a business. You obviously are not involved in the marketing of your product or the interaction with what I call a customer.

I am very disappointed in your broad brush comments.
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post #266 of 664 Old 10-31-2009, 07:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Rammitinski View Post

If you're talking about another sub-forum like this one, then this one should also be re-named "Objective Audio Review".

Then they'd also have to separate every other audio and video sub-forum on this forum into the same categories.

Don't think they're gonna do that, so I think people will just have to agree to disagree and be civil about it.

Rammitinski, I really don't think we have a whole lot to disagree about. I can't remember meeting too many people in this hobby who didn't realize the value of scientific measurements, or who would even consider the purchase of a component without looking at the spec sheet and trying to find some sort of impartial measuring data on said component.
But I've also never met anybody who LISTENED to a sheet of paper. It's a two way street, and the even though the specs may indeed read one way, when the rubber meets the road, people WILL listen.
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post #267 of 664 Old 11-01-2009, 05:45 PM
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Audiophiles are strange people. They say that the ear is one of the best tools around, but their ears don't hear the massive distortion that their turntable gives when they play the "superior" vinyl format.
Their ear can hear big change in power cables, but it cannot hear the massive destruction the average room without any acoustic treatment have.


About the difference in sound with amps, just look at this:


""The Audio Critic:

There has been a lot of hot chatter on the E-mail circuit over the past couple of months about the Steve Maki and Steve Zipser challenge in Miami. I thought you would appreciate a complete recount of the events. Zipser, a high-end salon owner, had issued a challenge that he would pay the airplane fare of any in- terested party who wanted to see him prove he could hear the differences be- tween amplifiers.

On Sunday afternoon, August 25th, Maki and I arrived at Zipser's house, which is also Sunshine Stereo. Maki brought his own control unit, a Yamaha AX-700 100-watt integrated amplifier for the challenge. In a straight 10-trial hard- wired comparison, Zipser was only able to identify correctly 3 times out of 10 whether the Yamaha unit or his pair of Pass Laboratories Aleph 1.2 monoblock 200-watt amplifiers was powering his Duntech Marquis speakers.
A Pass Labs preamplifier, Zip's personal wiring, and a full Audio Alchemy CD playback system completed the playback chain. No device except the Yamaha integrated amplifier was ever placed in the system. Maki inserted one or the other amplifier into the system and covered them with a thin black cloth to hide identities. Zipser used his own playback material and had as long as he wanted to decide which unit was driving the speakers.

I had matched the playback levels of the amplifiers to within 0.1 dB at 1 kHz, using the Yamaha balance and volume controls. Playback levels were adjusted with the system preamplifier by Zipser. I also determined that the two devices had frequency response differences of 0.4 dB at 16 kHz, but both were perfectly flat from 20 Hz to 8 kHz. In addition to me, Zipser, and Maki, one of Zip's friends, his wife, and another person unknown to me were sometimes in the room during the test, but no one was disruptive and conditions were perfectly quiet.
As far as I was concerned, the test was over. However, Zipser complained that he had stayed out late the night before and this reduced his sensitivity. At dinner, purchased by Zipser, we offered to give him another chance on Monday morning before our flight back North. On Monday at 9 a.m., I installed an ABX comparator in the system, complete with baling-wire lead to the Yamaha. Zipser improved his score to 5 out of 10. However, my switchpad did develop a hang-up problem, meaning that occasionally one had to verify the amplifier in the cir- cuit with a visual confirmation of an LED. Zipser has claimed he scored better prior to the problem, but in fact he only scored 4 out of 6 before any difficulties occurred.

His wife also conducted a 16-trial ABX comparison, using a 30-second phrase of a particular CD for all the trials. In this sequence I sat next to her at the main listening position and performed all the amplifier switching functions according to her verbal commands. She scored 9 out of 16 correct. Later another of Zip's friends scored 4 out of 10 correct. All listening was done with single listeners.
In sum, no matter what you may have heard elsewhere, audio store owner Steve Zipser was unable to tell reliably, based on sound alone, when his $14,000 pair of class A monoblock amplifiers was replaced by a ten-year old Japanese inte- grated amplifier in his personal reference system, in his own listening room, using program material selected personally by him as being especially revealing of differences. He failed the test under hardwired no-switching conditions, as well as with a high-resolution fast-comparison switching mode. As I have said before, when the answers aren't shared in advance, "Amps Is Amps" even for the Goldenest of Ears.

Tom Nousaine
Cary, IL"


http://www.theaudiocritic.com/back_i...ritic_24_r.pdf page 7


Amplifier Sound Quality

Do Amplifiers contribute to your systems sound quality?

You hear it all the time in hi-fi audio system reviews, phrases like:

You need a warm sounding amp to mellow out your bright speakers sound.

Audiophiles have been associating acoustic qualities to the choice in amplifier for decades. There must be some difference in sound, otherwise there wouldnt be such a wide disparity between the really exotic amplifiers that cost thousands versus the mainstream amplifiers that cost less than $500. The differences certainly arent in the specifications. Cheaper amps these days always go for the 100 Watt per channel rating on their specs sheet. It seems even a $200 Sony receiver desires to be called a 100W amp.

What about the amps contribution to sound quality? Can an amp color your music with any acoustical qualities outside clipping? Experts in hi-fi magazines regularly write reviews on esoteric brand name amplifiers filling them with adjective-laden praise for warm sound, liquid highs or edgy bass. The question of the amplifiers contribution to sound really started when the first transistorized amplifiers appeared in the 60s. Many die-hards still claim there is positive coloration to acoustic quality from tube amplifiers. They claim tube amps have a warm, smooth sound and that transistorized amplifiers introduce a harsh sound quality.

Double blind testing (the Pepsi challenge) is where participants choose between two things but dont know which is which. Its probably the only way of applying scientific methodology to audio. High profile double blind tests have tested everything from audio cables, speaker wires and even (the old controversy) amplifier sound.

Editors of Stereo Review magazine (now called Sound and Vision) conducted a high profile test of their own, recruiting expert double blind tester David Clark of DLC Designs (who does such tests professionally for CD players and hi-fi VCRs). The test was reported in detail by Ian G. Masters and published in Stereo Review magazine. The test was designed to be as objective as possible, using the same system, speakers, playback etc. They had a panel that consisted of some 25 listeners all audio/hi-fi professionals with an equal number of hi-fi objectivists who believed there would be little to no perceptible difference between amplifiers, and audiophiles who believed there was a huge difference between expensive or tube amps and their cheaper counterparts.

The array of amplifiers was laughable, from the most exotic to the most humble and everything in between. Topping off the high end was a Julius Futterman tube amp array, consisting of two $6,000 tube mono-block amps with separate power supplies, a total of four giant boxes that take up the space of a small fridge. The bottom end was represented by a $200 Pioneer receiver; it even had a cheesy five band equalizer on the face and a slide volume control. Its the kind of device that makes audiophiles cringe. The testing took place in an acoustically neutral environment that favors hi-fi listening but not one particular amp.

Middling brands included some nice NAD 2200, Hafler DH-1 120, and a Mark Levinson ML-11 $2000 50 watt per channel amp that delivers 25 volt peak power with current of 12.5 amperes. Now thats a high current amp. The A-B testing was preceded by a session where each listener got to toy with the amps and freely listen to each knowing what they were listening to. Doing the sighted listening, many of the listeners claimed to hear a distinct difference. Some of the skeptics were even admitting that they could actually hear significant differences between the sound quality of the different amps.

When it came down to the blind A-B testing of the 25 testers, only 3 participants scored 60% or greater correct when they guessed which amp was which, when comparing between two. Nobody got higher than a 63% score. Most amazing was that in testing between the Pioneer amp and the Futterman array, only 114 of 212 listeners could tell the difference -- thats a 54% correct guess! This is the most extreme example: audiophiles not able to tell the difference between a $200 Pioneer receiver and a $12,000 separate mono-block tube amp array with separate power supplies.

What does it mean? It means that people who advise you to buy expensive amplifiers because they believe amps contribute coloration to acoustic quality probably couldnt tell the difference between their favorite exotic amp and a $200 Pioneer. It doesnt mean that you should only choose the cheapest amp you can. There are other considerations not the least of which is the longevity of the unit. A $200 receiver is more likely to have a short lifespan, but a decent quality power amp could last a lifetime. There are also other considerations: the one thing that will certainly present problems is clipping. In the test they set the gain equally to all amps, so there was no difference in the power output, and the gain was set well within the specified limitations of the amp itself. This might not be the case at home; the speakers you use could be of all different efficiency ratings. You have to ensure your amp has plenty of reserve power for handling spikes in the soundtrack without clipping. Clipping is distortion, and distortion is the simple explanation for the coloration people claim to hear from certain amps. So, the weak highs or muddy bass you might hear from a cheap amp is probably clipping, or it could be a placebo.

Speakers are the device that creates the sound you hear. The room in which they produce sound is almost equally important to the speakers; room acoustics provide reflections or dampen sound, which will make or break many sound systems. The amplifier only powers the speakers to let them do their job. Beware of adjective laden descriptions of acoustic colorations from an amplifier.


http://www.hometheaterfocus.com/rece...d-quality.aspx

Sound and video is not magic, it is pure physics. Physics that can be magical
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post #268 of 664 Old 11-01-2009, 06:35 PM
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A great man once said "I don't care about good sound, I just want the best bang for the buck".

P.S. Not referring to amps, cables, or any of the other things that people claim to make HUGE differences (like cable risers, LOL!!!)
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post #269 of 664 Old 11-01-2009, 06:40 PM
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"Audiophiles are strange people", compared to............ uhh, scientists?
Ah yes, the fog is lifting now......... it's all becoming very clear.
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post #270 of 664 Old 11-01-2009, 06:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NIN74 View Post

Audiophiles are strange people. They say that the ear is one of the best tools around, but their ears don't hear the massive distortion that their turntable gives when they play the "superior" vinyl format.

Vinyl can be superior, especially if the recording has never been released in another format.
Otherwise I would say it is different. I like vinyl and have a few TTs and 1000+ LPs, but I get no less enjoyment from good music from a server or CD.

One thing I noticed years ago when working with recovering drug users was a similarity in preparation between IV users and LP listeners. For both there was/is a very ritualistic process for preparing for use and a resulting relaxation mentally, the aaaah! moment. This could easily be why many people have such a strong preference for it. I know it is the case for myself sometimes, and at other times it's a PITA when I would rather 'random' the songs ripped onto the PC.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NIN74 View Post

Their ear can hear big change in power cables, but it cannot hear the massive destruction the average room without any acoustic treatment have.

Another fave of mine, especially when the cables under discussion are expensive.

{snipped for brevity}

I have posted the Zipser test on other forums before and it's fun to watch the amount of squirming and excuse making that goes on with people trying to discredit it. Every one of his conditions for test was met, and he still couldn't pull it off in familiar surroundings and his own system and music.
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