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post #451 of 2187 Old 12-31-2009, 08:43 AM
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Originally Posted by lodit View Post

Sure. Your own personal experience can be considered scientific. Consider it a study with a sample size of one.

You keep using this word "scientific", but I'm not sure you know what it means.

Anecdotal evidence with an n of one is hardly scientific. Subjective impressions such as how the modified equipment makes you feel is hardly scientific.

It seems telling that the guy selling these modifications won't even say what he's selling. "It sounds awesome, just don't ask what I did. Ignore the man behind the curtain."

The fact that a number of shills suddenly show up on AVS Forum and other sites pushing this apparent snake oil makes me less likely to give credit to people's subjective impressions of these modifications. The utter lack of any empirical (tangible, measurable, scientific) evidence that TUC improves things makes me really suspicious.

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post #452 of 2187 Old 12-31-2009, 01:04 PM
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Originally Posted by JimboG View Post

You keep using this word "scientific", but I'm not sure you know what it means.

Anecdotal evidence with an n of one is hardly scientific. Subjective impressions such as how the modified equipment makes you feel is hardly scientific.

It seems telling that the guy selling these modifications won't even say what he's selling. "It sounds awesome, just don't ask what I did. Ignore the man behind the curtain."

The fact that a number of shills suddenly show up on AVS Forum and other sites pushing this apparent snake oil makes me less likely to give credit to people's subjective impressions of these modifications. The utter lack of any empirical (tangible, measurable, scientific) evidence that TUC improves things makes me really suspicious.

Well, then, let me know when you have scientific evidence that proves your suspicions correct and we'll be able to wrap this up real quick.

I'm not advocating that TUC mods work, but their right to claim as much has not yet been refused by those who have paid for the service.

To quote the many who have gotten undeservedly rich:

"Don't hate the player, hate the game."
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post #453 of 2187 Old 12-31-2009, 02:33 PM
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Originally Posted by lodit View Post

Well, then, let me know when you have scientific evidence that proves your suspicions correct and we'll be able to wrap this up real quick.

Apparently you missed several photos that have been posted.

If you want to believe that a few pieces of foil and a dozen 50 cent capacitors somehow transform the sound, more power to you.
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post #454 of 2187 Old 12-31-2009, 02:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Fanaticalism View Post

The way I see it, it is pointless for the banter to continue.

One will never get someone to admit that the 1-2k that they spent on some foil and ferrites that they are suffering from placebo, especially when they've never heard what the unit is SUPPOSED to sound like to begin with.

The same manner that one will not convince those who seek something of substance to quantify what the owners of these mods are stating, especially when they have no idea what the product sounded like before the mod, or rely on a months memory span.

Like I said before, I had the Oppo 83 in stock form for a month sitting next to a two year old upgraded Denon 5910ci that had already bettered the EMM CDSA SE. The stock Oppo is no where in the league of the upgraded 5910. Blind test? Give me a freaking break here. You would have to be absolutely deaf not to hear the HUGE difference. The upgraded Denon kills the stock Oppo. I received the Oppo back two weeks later and put it back on the shelf next to the upgraded Denon. Without the unit having any time on it bettered the two year old upgraded Denon 5910ci. Differences between the stock Oppo and upgraded are, more air or separation and siblance is lifted, unristricting midrange and much more body is added for a live attacking sound, much more refined top end and inner detailing comes out in spades. Leading edges are very crisp and accurate and extend beyond the listening position. It is a much bigger and unristricted or compressed performance. It is not a subtle change in any way. The details that the upgraded Oppo brings allows an easier way to hear downstream component changes, cable changes and tube swaps. I can only talk from my expereince in my own listening environment so as we all know you take with a grain of salt. You would have to listen to one in your own system and then be the judge. There is really no other way to do this because there is no such thing as a sonic measurement. You can't look at a measurement and tell if one unit is going to sound better than the other. You can guess but that is about it. The testing should be done in your own system with your own ears. There are a lot of happy customers and repeat customers and if it were the opposite you would here a ton more complaints. People can try there best to upset the apple cart but the tree keeps growing.
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post #455 of 2187 Old 12-31-2009, 02:49 PM
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Hey, for the New Year, rno63, pop open the tops and snap some pics.

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post #456 of 2187 Old 12-31-2009, 03:40 PM
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rno63 , what gear do you have?
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post #457 of 2187 Old 12-31-2009, 04:51 PM
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Originally Posted by rno63 View Post

...The stock Oppo is no where in the league of the upgraded 5910. Blind test? Give me a freaking break here. You would have to be absolutely deaf not to hear the HUGE difference......

Or, just have an overactive imagination that this happened.
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post #458 of 2187 Old 12-31-2009, 06:12 PM
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Originally Posted by B&W700guy View Post

rno63 , what gear do you have?

Upgrade Company Oppo BDP83
Upgrade Company Denon 5910ci (older mod)
Ming DA MC2A3 Pre with NOS tubes
Two Linn Klouts bi-amped
Tyler Acoustic D3 monitors with Two JL Audio F113's. Replaced JM Lab 936's
Morrow Audio M4 ic, Morrow Audio SP5 and SP4 speaker cables
Lessloss power cord, Xindak FP-Gold power cords, Analysis Plus Power Oval
I also use an Upgrade Company JVC reciever. RX-DP20VBK
Tweaks=Oyaide R1 outlets, two dedicated lines, isolation transformers, Herbies footers, Black Diamond Racing pucks.
Looking to get an Onkyo TX-NR 905 modded as well.

Other equipment used. EMM CDSA SE, APL modded Esoteric DV50, Underwood (parts express) Ultimate modded Marantz SA11, Marantz SA-1, Marantz SA12S1, Sony SCD-1, Krell DVD standard, Arcam CD92 Arcam CD33t, Arcam DV88P and have heard others on different systems but that is irrelevant.

Happy New Year!
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post #459 of 2187 Old 12-31-2009, 06:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

Hey, for the New Year, rno63, pop open the tops and snap some pics.

Maybe you would like to see the inside of the APL or Parts Express instead?
This way you could run to all the forums yelling look at me look at me weee It could be a big night for ya
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post #460 of 2187 Old 12-31-2009, 08:34 PM
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Originally Posted by WilliamZX11 View Post

Apparently you missed several photos that have been posted.

If you want to believe that a few pieces of foil and a dozen 50 cent capacitors somehow transform the sound, more power to you.

Have you tried it?

I haven't, so I can't definitively say that it does or not.

Once you do, and take the necessary measurements to prove they don't, post it for everyone's benefit.

The photos show poor workmanship. I'm not sure how you can tell from the pictures that the sound produced does or doesn't change as a result.

You can postulate, but can you prove your statements with what you would consider valid scientific evidence?

Again, I wouldn't buy these "mods" as I'm definitely not an audiophile bent on achieving personal sonic perfection from source to senses, but I wouldn't denounce someone else's right to make an attempt.

If it could be somehow definitively proven that it's all hogwash, well then, good for you. And me, and every other person who ever spent time discussing the issue.

Just remember, "Don't hate the player, hate the game."
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post #461 of 2187 Old 12-31-2009, 08:50 PM
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Originally Posted by lodit View Post

Have you tried it?

I haven't, so I can't definitively say that it does or not.

So until we try them, we have to accept that the products below might actually work, right? You never answered this before.

http://www.machinadynamica.com/machina41.htm

http://www.machinadynamica.com/machina60.htm
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post #462 of 2187 Old 12-31-2009, 09:49 PM
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Originally Posted by rno63 View Post

Like I said before, I had the Oppo 83 in stock form for a month sitting next to a two year old upgraded Denon 5910ci that had already bettered the EMM CDSA SE. The stock Oppo is no where in the league of the upgraded 5910. Blind test? Give me a freaking break here. You would have to be absolutely deaf not to hear the HUGE difference. The upgraded Denon kills the stock Oppo. I received the Oppo back two weeks later and put it back on the shelf next to the upgraded Denon. Without the unit having any time on it bettered the two year old upgraded Denon 5910ci. Differences between the stock Oppo and upgraded are, more air or separation and siblance is lifted, unristricting midrange and much more body is added for a live attacking sound, much more refined top end and inner detailing comes out in spades. Leading edges are very crisp and accurate and extend beyond the listening position. It is a much bigger and unristricted or compressed performance. It is not a subtle change in any way. The details that the upgraded Oppo brings allows an easier way to hear downstream component changes, cable changes and tube swaps. I can only talk from my expereince in my own listening environment so as we all know you take with a grain of salt. You would have to listen to one in your own system and then be the judge. There is really no other way to do this because there is no such thing as a sonic measurement. You can't look at a measurement and tell if one unit is going to sound better than the other. You can guess but that is about it. The testing should be done in your own system with your own ears. There are a lot of happy customers and repeat customers and if it were the opposite you would here a ton more complaints. People can try there best to upset the apple cart but the tree keeps growing.


A lot of the things that you mentioned in terms of differences are easily measured, yet, there has yet to be one that shows there are any differences between properly engineered players, nevermind upgraded ones.

Also, I like how you continue to hide, or "protect" yourself by saying that ones environment plays a role. That is total BS. Or that ones system may not be resolving enough, when you make statements like "HUGE difference" or "Night and DAY". When the differences are THAT obvious, they should reveal themselves regardless of ones system.

I would love to place all the people who spent more money on cables, power cords, interconnects and speaker wire then they do on their speakers in a blind listening test to see the look on their faces when they can't tell the difference between a Dynex power cord, and their 2k dollar one.

Justify all you want, a roll of Reynolds wrap and $2 worth of ferrites will not make a difference.
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post #463 of 2187 Old 01-01-2010, 01:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rno63 View Post

Upgrade Company Oppo BDP83
Upgrade Company Denon 5910ci (older mod)
Ming DA MC2A3 Pre with NOS tubes
Two Linn Klouts bi-amped
Tyler Acoustic D3 monitors with Two JL Audio F113's. Replaced JM Lab 936's
Morrow Audio M4 ic, Morrow Audio SP5 and SP4 speaker cables
Lessloss power cord, Xindak FP-Gold power cords, Analysis Plus Power Oval
I also use an Upgrade Company JVC reciever. RX-DP20VBK
Tweaks=Oyaide R1 outlets, two dedicated lines, isolation transformers, Herbies footers, Black Diamond Racing pucks.
Looking to get an Onkyo TX-NR 905 modded as well.

Other equipment used. EMM CDSA SE, APL modded Esoteric DV50, Underwood (parts express) Ultimate modded Marantz SA11, Marantz SA-1, Marantz SA12S1, Sony SCD-1, Krell DVD standard, Arcam CD92 Arcam CD33t, Arcam DV88P and have heard others on different systems but that is irrelevant.

Happy New Year!

Surely you are aware that all that gear is rubbish?

Why is it rubbish? Because I say it is rubbish and hundreds of other people you don't know say it is rubbish.

It is also impossible for you to disprove my assertion that everything you own is rubbish, because my opinion is subjective.

So, let me repeat, everything you own is rubbish. And you have tin ears if you don't know it.


There you go Dave... an example of your own 'logic'.
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post #464 of 2187 Old 01-01-2010, 04:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

You know Nick, even if you wouldn't post a pic, after hearing all this, I'd be mighty tempted to take a peek inside and see what was done.

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Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

The first one shows what was done to the top lid. The second is another shot of the inside. Is it me, or are the capacitors all a little c0ck-eyed? Sorry for the size, but they do scale well if you want to examine things in more detail.

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Originally Posted by lodit View Post

Sure, in the end, it may be proven that this particular company's mods are nothing more than swapping colored caps and extra Reynold's Wrap, but it's still up to the buyer to decide whether or not it's worth the price.

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Originally Posted by WilliamZX11 View Post

If you want to believe that a few pieces of foil and a dozen 50 cent capacitors somehow transform the sound, more power to you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

Hey, for the New Year, rno63, pop open the tops and snap some pics.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lodit View Post

The photos show poor workmanship. I'm not sure how you can tell from the pictures that the sound produced does or doesn't change as a result.

Except for projectors, I pop the lid and take pictures of pretty much everything that I buy, just out of curiosity. I was particularly interested by the TUC mods, but I wouldn't post pictures unless Schulte agreed. I'm not sure whether it help anything one way or the other, but having said that, I think most people here wouldn't be surprised by what they saw if I did do that. I believe its largely irrelevant though; I'm only interested in the audible results, not in what the actual mods are. I really don't care what resistors, capacitors, regulators, screens or filters have been added - that's TUC's business.

So - here's the question. What would you say if I did post a picture of the inside of my Onkyo.

1) What if it was full of girders, valves, over-size passives and new PCBs in individual boxes, and it sounded better than any other processor?

2) And what if it was full of foil and ferrites, but still sounded better than any other processor?

What difference would it make to people's perception of the actual modifications?

Happy New Year, Nick
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post #465 of 2187 Old 01-01-2010, 05:42 AM
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What if indeed. What if Schulte has NFI what he's doing? What if his changes actually result in a more poorly performing unit (that's subjective, I know ) and you happen to like it? Did you ever take any measurements yourself, Nick? For example, you could burn a series of test tones onto a CDR, play them through your system, and using a VOM, measure the voltages at the speaker terminals (record values for both speakers). Do it for the unmodded and modded unit.

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post #466 of 2187 Old 01-01-2010, 05:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

What if indeed. What if Schulte has NFI what he's doing? What if his changes actually result in a more poorly performing unit (that's subjective, I know ) and you happen to like it? Did you ever take any measurements yourself, Nick? For example, you could burn a series of test tones onto a CDR, play them through your system, and using a VOM, measure the voltages at the speaker terminals (record values for both speakers). Do it for the unmodded and modded unit.

I did ask Schulte if he had done any before and after measurements on his modifications. I don't have his reply on this PC, but I do recall he said that on the Onkyo, the frequency range was flatter and wider than stock, and the noise floor was reduced by 8 dB on all boards.

Nick
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post #467 of 2187 Old 01-01-2010, 07:26 AM
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Nick, you're a sincere guy. The thing is, is Schulte? Me, I'm a prick. I put my wallet in the front pocket and put a rubber band around it. When someone says something, like Schulte saying the FR is flatter and more extended, and the overall noise floor is 8 dB lower, I can't help but wonder if that bump in the crowd was accidental or intentional, so I stick my hand in the pocket.

If he said it, then he measured it with something. So, me, I'd like to see the measurements. Show me the graphs. Tell me about the equipment and better yet, how's about a pic of him standing next to the equipment with today's newspaper? Now, you can accept that his word or not. That's up to you. But my next question to him after his reply would've been what I said above.

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post #468 of 2187 Old 01-01-2010, 10:11 AM
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I was particularly interested by the TUC mods, but I wouldn't post pictures unless Schulte agreed.

What an utterly bizarre comment. You think you need Schulte's permission to take pictures of your own gear? What rights does he have over someone else's property once he's finished his work on it?


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If it was garbage, nobody would recommend it.

Oh, dear child. I have just two words for you: ginkgo biloba...
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...
Oh, dear child. I have just two words for you: ginkgo biloba...

Or, Sylvia Brown and John Edwards
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post #470 of 2187 Old 01-01-2010, 12:27 PM
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.... I don't have his reply on this PC, but I do recall he said that on the Onkyo, the frequency range was flatter and wider than stock, and the noise floor was reduced by 8 dB on all boards.

Nick

He'd practically had to redesign the whole component to get those results. I seriously doubt he even knows where to start.
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post #471 of 2187 Old 01-01-2010, 12:33 PM
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...and John Edwards

Unless you are referring to the philanderer, you probably mean John Edward. However, both are worthy candidates of South Park's "Biggest Douche in the Universe" award.
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post #472 of 2187 Old 01-01-2010, 12:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Fanaticalism View Post

A lot of the things that you mentioned in terms of differences are easily measured, yet, there has yet to be one that shows there are any differences between properly engineered players, nevermind upgraded ones.

Also, I like how you continue to hide, or "protect" yourself by saying that ones environment plays a role. That is total BS. Or that ones system may not be resolving enough, when you make statements like "HUGE difference" or "Night and DAY". When the differences are THAT obvious, they should reveal themselves regardless of ones system.

I would love to place all the people who spent more money on cables, power cords, interconnects and speaker wire then they do on their speakers in a blind listening test to see the look on their faces when they can't tell the difference between a Dynex power cord, and their 2k dollar one.

Justify all you want, a roll of Reynolds wrap and $2 worth of ferrites will not make a difference.

Another rookie in the audiophile world. Run into a lot of them here.
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post #473 of 2187 Old 01-01-2010, 02:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Steve Dodds View Post

Surely you are aware that all that gear is rubbish?

Why is it rubbish? Because I say it is rubbish and hundreds of other people you don't know say it is rubbish.

It is also impossible for you to disprove my assertion that everything you own is rubbish, because my opinion is subjective.

So, let me repeat, everything you own is rubbish. And you have tin ears if you don't know it.


There you go Dave... an example of your own 'logic'.

Why are you referring this to Dave? What does Dave have to do with my system? I know you don't have to believe anything and I don't think anyone really cares. I don't know if you mean Dave has tin ears or if I have tin ears. I really don't care what you think but thanks for the post anyways.
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post #474 of 2187 Old 01-01-2010, 03:10 PM
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Me, I'm a prick.

Good call
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post #475 of 2187 Old 01-01-2010, 04:08 PM
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Another rookie in the audiophile world. Run into a lot of them here.

Hehe.
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post #476 of 2187 Old 01-01-2010, 04:36 PM
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Well, Chesky uses several audiophile cables: Crystal, Cardas, Nirvana, and I'm sure others. In exchange for using them, the provider is able to use Chesky's name to promote both their use of the cables and Chesky's offerings. It's very much a win-win situation. I'd imagine that Chesky is wired with cables from all sorts of places like Belden, Mogami, and various Romex stuff in the walls. If you want to make hay out of this, knock yourself out. Chesky has probably grabbed a hotdog from the Sabret vendor and knocked off an occasional BK Whopper, but that's hardly an endorsement for a preferred cuisine. Let's not be naive here, now.

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post #477 of 2187 Old 01-01-2010, 04:44 PM
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Well, Chesky uses several audiophile cables: Crystal, Cardas, Nirvana, and I'm sure others. In exchange for using them, the provider is able to use Chesky's name to promote both their use of the cables and Chesky's offerings. It's very much a win-win situation. I'd imagine that Chesky is wired with cables from all sorts of places like Belden, Mogami, and various Romex stuff in the walls. If you want to make hay out of this, knock yourself out. Chesky has probably grabbed a hotdog from the Sabret vendor and knocked off an occasional BK Whopper, but that's hardly an endorsement for a preferred cuisine. Let's not be naive here, now.

Wrong thread?
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post #478 of 2187 Old 01-01-2010, 04:52 PM
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Wrong thread?

I think so.

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post #479 of 2187 Old 01-01-2010, 05:25 PM
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post #480 of 2187 Old 01-01-2010, 05:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rno63 View Post

Another rookie in the audiophile world. Run into a lot of them here.

Also run into a LOT of wannabes, that think they are audiophiles....
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