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post #31 of 2187 Old 11-28-2009, 10:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WilliamZX11 View Post

Wires and burn in? At least I know better than to trust your review on any equipment now.

Thanks.

LOL - got me on that one too. How the heck can you determine wire break in? I'd really like to know that one. Morrow audio actually charges a wire break in service. Can you believe that! Yes, buy some wire from him, and for an additional fee he'll break it in before he sends it to you. WTF? And you wonder why there are so many internet millionaires?

However, this is a science forum, and I'm willing to be a guinea pig. I'd love for someone (rno63 perhaps?) to send me some of this wire - one already broke in, one not. You can mark it, just don't tell me which one is broken in. I"ll listen to both and If I can hear a difference I'll buy the cables FOR YOU and send it back to you too, plus I'll put in an order in for my own cables. All it will cost you is shipping them to me (I'll pay the return shipping).

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post #32 of 2187 Old 11-28-2009, 01:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kpt_Krunch View Post

LOL - got me on that one too. How the heck can you determine wire break in? I'd really like to know that one. .

Resistance/impedance characteristics change within a system as the wire burns in. It is the same as your system warming up and sounding better after it has been off for a while. This all can be measured through scopes. Also, as wire burns in, the molecular structure changes within the wire until it has settled into a particular system. My load path is going to be different than yours due to resistance/impedance changes within the compnents. Signals travel the least resistant path and all frequencies travel on differnt parts of the wire. There is also noise and vibration that occur within the wire and the less you have of this the better. A good way to to get rid of a lot of this noise/vibration is dedicated lines to maybe a power regenerator or even an isolation transformer. Then it comes down to having the right balance of shielding and filtering. Sometimes you can have too much of both. This is one reason why power cords can have different effects on a system as well.
In a nut shell if you can't hear the differences between a brand new cable (power,ic, speaker) and one that has been in your system for a while then I don't know what to tell you except for the fact you are missing some information.

Cheers!
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post #33 of 2187 Old 11-28-2009, 01:45 PM
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wow...

- chris

 

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post #34 of 2187 Old 11-28-2009, 02:42 PM
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Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

wow...

Hey chris, please pass the popcorn...this thread is going to get interesting in a few hours.
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post #35 of 2187 Old 11-28-2009, 02:50 PM
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sure... i made a BIG batch after reading that, since i was thinking the same as you...


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post #36 of 2187 Old 11-28-2009, 03:06 PM
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Here's another thread on the subject from Audio Asylum. You'll see a poster from this thread involved. If you open up that person's Audio Asylum post and click on his moniker, it gives you the option (in "classic view") to see all Audio Asylum posts from that person. You'll find they consist of two posts, both plugging The Upgrade Company.
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post #37 of 2187 Old 11-28-2009, 09:03 PM
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Resistance/impedance characteristics change within a system as the wire burns in. It is the same as your system warming up and sounding better after it has been off for a while. This all can be measured through scopes.

Really, can you show us some measurements then?

As far as the rest of your post, did you just make that all up? Or can you provide us with some verifiable data?
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post #38 of 2187 Old 11-29-2009, 03:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rno63 View Post

Then it comes down to having the right balance of shielding and filtering. Sometimes you can have too much of both. This is one reason why power cords can have different effects on a system as well.

rno,

I performed a crude comparison with these Synergistic Research Tesla power cords, with my pre amp and power amp. Blind swap between the stock cords and the Teslas. I couldn't hear an audible difference.
Could you please give me an example of how a power cord made an audible difference in your system or a system that you witnessed?


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post #39 of 2187 Old 11-29-2009, 03:42 PM
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Well, hopefully you didn't buy those then! Maybe try some others. Is your system resolving enough to tell? Do you have an Upgrade Company player?
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post #40 of 2187 Old 11-29-2009, 03:54 PM
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Originally Posted by K Shep View Post

Could you please give me an example of how a power cord made an audible difference in your system or a system that you witnessed?

I will reiterate.
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post #41 of 2187 Old 11-29-2009, 06:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K Shep View Post

I will reiterate.

Sure, all frequencies were noticeably better between a stock power cord and the Lessloss DFPC. This is just one cord though but just about all after market cords I have used were much better than the stock cord except for the Magic Power cord from Signal Cable. Not much going on there for me. Improvements were better after running dedicated lines as well. The Oyaide R-1 outlet makes an improvement as well. These are noticed more on the highs with added sparkle and clarity. The tighter connections and polishing takes the dioding effect down to a minimum. Oyaide connectors are very nice.
I have also felt the power cord on the source makes the bigger improvement over the pre and amp as well.

Regards.
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post #42 of 2187 Old 11-30-2009, 06:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rno63 View Post

Well, hopefully you didn't buy those then!

No I didn't purchase either of them.


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Originally Posted by rno63 View Post

Maybe try some others.

No. I had the opportunity to borrow the cables for an in home, weekend audition and I am now convinced that after market power cables are not for me.

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Originally Posted by rno63 View Post

Is your system resolving enough to tell?

Oh? So that might be the reason why I am unable to hear an audible difference in $900 power cables, because my system in not resolving enough?

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Do you have an Upgrade Company player?

No. My player is a stock Arcam FMJ CD17. The majority of my listening is via AIFF through an Ayre DAC.
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post #43 of 2187 Old 11-30-2009, 07:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K Shep View Post

Oh? So that might be the reason why I am unable to hear an audible difference in $900 power cables, because my system in not resolving enough?

yea, k, it's that crap system/room you have...

my goodness... that's an impressive pile of it in those 2 posts...

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post #44 of 2187 Old 11-30-2009, 07:45 AM
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I rest my case. Non resolving! Full of stock computer parts and chokes. So yes you would have a tough time hearing the differnces in power cords. You saved yourself some money.

See you guys somewhere else!
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post #45 of 2187 Old 11-30-2009, 07:48 AM
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i'm holding my breath in anticipation of the next time we "meet"...

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my build thread - updated 8-20-12 - new seating installed and projector isolation solution

 

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post #46 of 2187 Old 11-30-2009, 07:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rno63 View Post

Resistance/impedance characteristics change within a system as the wire burns in. It is the same as your system warming up and sounding better after it has been off for a while. This all can be measured through scopes.

Got those measurements yet?
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post #47 of 2187 Old 11-30-2009, 08:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rno63 View Post

Well, hopefully you didn't buy those then! Maybe try some others. Is your system resolving enough to tell? Do you have an Upgrade Company player?

Heavens! That doesn't mean your system is resolving. It means that whomever designed your system was incompetent such that power cord changes resulted in audible differences! I would be profoundly disturbed going to a doctor's office and finding the equipment he uses is sensitive to PC swaps.

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post #48 of 2187 Old 11-30-2009, 08:28 AM
 
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full of stock computer parts and chokes.

lol
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post #49 of 2187 Old 11-30-2009, 11:03 AM
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Originally Posted by rno63 View Post

Non resolving! Full of stock computer parts and chokes.

I disagree with you. Will you please explain what a choke is? Is that a device or relay that reduces the bandwidth of my system?
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post #50 of 2187 Old 11-30-2009, 07:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rno63 View Post

I rest my case. Non resolving! Full of stock computer parts and chokes. So yes you would have a tough time hearing the differnces in power cords. You saved yourself some money.

See you guys somewhere else!

Hey wait, where are you going rno? Where else can we see you? This is all very very interesting. I mean, $3000 for a speaker wire (1M) which would be squat because of my 'stock computer parts' and inferior power cable, not to mention a gawd awful wall outlet. But wait, what about the wire in the house leading up to that outlet, what if there's a fault in there.

Lets say I believe you, seriously. So I call my mortgage broker and ask her fo for a second mortage so I can spend about $6000 grand on speaker wire, $1000 on a 6 foot (is it that long) power cable, $1200 or so x what, 2, maybe three (for my DVD player, tube amp, and while I'm at it the amp/wires in my subwoofer), $3000 in interconnects ('cause I mean, after all, that could be the fault), oh, and say, $20,000 to pay an electrician to re-wire my house with whatever wire is required to to make sure I get the best signal to my equipment).

So lets say I do this, what's that running me, roughly, lets see....... $35,000 or so (give or take) and wait - still no difference . Why, oh, of course, after spending all that money I forgot the end source, the wires in the crossover connecting to my woofers and tweeters in my speakers, why, that is just cheap computer stuff that is choking all that wonderful sound I should have after taking out another mortgage to upgrade everything else. Oh, I forgot, I would have to add, what, fifteen, twenty grand in lawyer fee's as when my wife finds out I will be served with Divorce papers (or loonie bin papers, or both) and, well, I suppose you do see where I'm going with this, right?

Though to be honest, if I even spend 10% of all this on all these upgrades, I guarantee you and everyone else here that I will hear a difference, I will 'will' myself to hear a difference, even if it's ever so slight, so I can justify all this money spent to get that extra, what is it anyway, 5% better, 10%.....1%.

No really, stay, I want to hear more, literally.

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post #51 of 2187 Old 11-30-2009, 09:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rno63 View Post

Also, the more revealing your system is the more you realize what you have. Go to his website and read the testimonials.

Trust a testimonial from a website?

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Originally Posted by rno63 View Post

What do you know, another happy customer and the unit is probably not even broken in yet. Blast away guys.

Break-in?

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they are great right out of the box but just like wire they take some time to season. Not sure exactly how many hours before you stop noticing improvements but anything after day one is just icing on the cake.

Season, thats a new one for me.

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Resistance/impedance characteristics change within a system as the wire burns in. This all can be measured through scopes. Also, as wire burns in, the molecular structure changes within the wire until it has settled into a particular system.

Burn-in?

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Originally Posted by rno63 View Post

The tighter connections and polishing takes the dioding effect down to a minimum.

What?

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Originally Posted by rno63 View Post

Full of stock computer parts and chokes. So yes you would have a tough time hearing the differnces in power cords.

Stock computer parts?

rno,

I really hate to see you run off, I have so many more questions. No I don't...good by.
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post #52 of 2187 Old 11-30-2009, 10:01 PM
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...Also, as wire burns in, the molecular structure changes within the wire until it has settled into a particular system. ... Cheers!

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I rest my case. ...!

I am reading your posts You don't have a case to rest. Not sure where you are getting your imagined ideas from but it is wacky to say the least.
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post #53 of 2187 Old 11-30-2009, 10:05 PM
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Originally Posted by raulduke69 View Post

I have a very modest system by AVS standards (but I have always gotten great and REALISTIC advice from this august body)...

I would love to imrpove my systems overall performance when playing both CD's and lossless files from my computer (through USB on Music Hall tube DAC).

I stumbled upon "The Upgrade Company" and contacted them for a quote. The price to upgrade my CD,DAC, Pre and Amp, while high seemed quite reasonable compared to purchasing new.

...

Your room and speakers have the greatest effect and affect on sound reproduction, not the other components. You should really stay away from that company that hides everything they do and charge an arm and a leg on faith alone.
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post #54 of 2187 Old 11-30-2009, 11:33 PM
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Funny how threads around this company always come in the same fashion.

New poster starts a thread.

New posters chime in about how great this company is.

Repeat 6 months from now.
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post #55 of 2187 Old 12-01-2009, 07:20 PM
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I am reading your posts You don't have a case to rest. Not sure where you are getting your imagined ideas from but it is wacky to say the least.

I don't understand why some of you guys seem surprised. His posts are standard boilerplate arguments from that crowd. Nothing that we haven't heard before. Provides them with a modicum of seemingly respectable substantiation for the differences they truly believe themselves to hear. A series of quasi-scientific justifications, if you will.

I find it fascinating. I don't know why. Probably for some of the same reasons I can't help but remain tuned in to the syndicated Art Bell/Coast to Coast programming when I pass it on the radio dial late at night. I'm very curious about the mindsets of these people, the ways in which they resolve the arguments and evidence arrayed against them in order to continue maintaining their belief systems. Of course, they don't see them as mere beliefs at all, but as valid assessments derived from reasonable scrutiny.

Mourning the disappearance of the -ly suffix. Words being cut-off before they've had a chance to fully form, left incomplete, with their shoelaces untied and their zippers undone. If I quote your post (or post in your thread) without comment, please check your zipper.
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post #56 of 2187 Old 12-01-2009, 07:46 PM
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I'm very curious about the mindsets of these people, the ways in which they resolve the arguments... Of course, they don't see them as mere beliefs at all, but as valid assessments derived from reasonable scrutiny.

You have really hit on something here, at least in my mind. The mindset of these people and how they believe. I would consider that their belief systems are skewed to the point that no matter what point they are arguing, the audible difference of their newly modified CDP or their speaker cable sounds better with 50 hours of burn-in or evolution or if vaccinations cause autism. Once they have determined their view to be correct there is no other option or choice.
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post #57 of 2187 Old 12-02-2009, 07:47 PM
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I want to know how Copper, an element (which cannot change without completely changing), can change as electric passes through it over time. If it isn't oxidized copper wire, it is exactly the same as brand new wire.

I really hope he is joking. It is disturbing to here people ramble on about things that have been proven to be wrong.

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post #58 of 2187 Old 12-03-2009, 02:47 PM
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I want to know how Copper, an element (which cannot change without completely changing), can change as electric passes through it over time. If it isn't oxidized copper wire, it is exactly the same as brand new wire.

I really hope he is joking. It is disturbing to here people ramble on about things that have been proven to be wrong.

What if excessive electricity passing through the cable heats up the copper (via friction?) and causes the copper to uhh.. melt I guess? Or in the case of stranded copper the strands would meld together? Would that change anything? Serious question.
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post #59 of 2187 Old 12-03-2009, 03:07 PM
 
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What if excessive electricity passing through the cable heats up the copper (via friction?) and causes the copper to uhh.. melt I guess?

You would have melted copper, until it cooled, at which point it would become solid copper again.

Quote:


Or in the case of stranded copper the strands would meld together? Would that change anything? Serious question.

It would change from stranded wire to solid wire, but it would still be copper and still have all the properties of the element, copper.

Do they still teach chemistry and physics in high school?
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post #60 of 2187 Old 12-03-2009, 10:04 PM
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You would have melted copper, until it cooled, at which point it would become solid copper again.



It would change from stranded wire to solid wire, but it would still be copper and still have all the properties of the element, copper.

Do they still teach chemistry and physics in high school?

What is the point of answering a question if you are going to take a jab and be condescending?


For you to melt the copper you would need a much higher voltage/amps for an extended period of time, so it is rather a moot point.
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