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post #1441 of 2187 Old 02-18-2010, 03:49 AM
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I'm with Dave, Dave and Rich on the subjective vs objective debate. Of course that won't be a surprise to anyone, but that was my view long before I heard of the Upgrade Company. My old posts on many forums back this up, so its nothing new; nothing I've suddenly dreamt up to explain away my decison-making last year. I suppose it goes back to this - five years ago I happened to own two flagship AV amplifiers, both in the same place in the market: big, heavy, expensive, lots of inputs, 170wpc all channels driven, etc etc. One claimed and measured typically 0.01% THD+N, while the other claimed and measured typically 0.1% THD+N. Those were representative, best-case, figures for medium power outputs where THD+N is usually lowest, and not into clipping. Frequency response and load tolerance and all those good things were similar. It boiled down to this - 0.1% vs 0.01%. So which one should I have kept?
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post #1442 of 2187 Old 02-18-2010, 07:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by welwynnick View Post

I'm with Dave, Dave and Rich on the subjective vs objective debate. Of course that won't be a surprise to anyone, but that was my view long before I heard of the Upgrade Company. My old posts on many forums back this up, so its nothing new; nothing I've suddenly dreamt up to explain away my decison-making last year. I suppose it goes back to this - five years ago I happened to own two flagship AV amplifiers, both in the same place in the market: big, heavy, expensive, lots of inputs, 170wpc all channels driven, etc etc. One claimed and measured typically 0.01% THD+N, while the other claimed and measured typically 0.1% THD+N. Those were representative, best-case, figures for medium power outputs where THD+N is usually lowest, and not into clipping. Frequency response and load tolerance and all those good things were similar. It boiled down to this - 0.1% vs 0.01%. So which one should I have kept?

The cheaper one? Sell the more expensive one, make some money back and get some better acoustic treatments.
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post #1443 of 2187 Old 02-18-2010, 07:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BWG707 View Post

I think that you are very wrong in stating that "most people do not look at numbers for performance", pertaining to those forums. The reason that you do not hear much talk about numbers /measurements on these forums is because all of the products being discussed actually do measurements and they are readily available to anybody looking for them. They really don't need to be discussed publicly because they are publicly posted unlike TUC, which says they do measurements but for some reason can never get around to posting them. And that seems alittle strange to me. People on these forums are just discussing their OPINIONS. If you buy on opinions alone that is fine with me but I believe the majority of consumers prefer to involve the use of FACTS when making their purchasing decisions. That is just my opinion, I have no supporting facts but I believe most people would agree with this.

Hi BWG707,

I think the qualifier (for me) is that I mentioned my experience with the threads that I read. This past 2-3 years, I've been reading a lot of threads about different brands of processors. Most of the time, folks don't discuss measurements when doing comparisons of the processors. And, when someone who has experience with many different brands of processors is involved in a thread, folks ask for their opinion about the sound comparisons - they do not ask about measurement comparisons.

So, for the threads I read, I do see mostly OPINIONS. For these folks, "how" something sounds is the data they are looking for - not the measurements. If you look at the threads I read, it would probably drive "you" crazy.

Dave

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post #1444 of 2187 Old 02-18-2010, 08:40 AM
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Originally Posted by thezaks View Post

Hi BWG707,

I think the qualifier (for me) is that I mentioned my experience with the threads that I read. This past 2-3 years, I've been reading a lot of threads about different brands of processors. Most of the time, folks don't discuss measurements when doing comparisons of the processors. And, when someone who has experience with many different brands of processors is involved in a thread, folks ask for their opinion about the sound comparisons - they do not ask about measurement comparisons.

So, for the threads I read, I do see mostly OPINIONS. For these folks, "how" something sounds is the data they are looking for - not the measurements. If you look at the threads I read, it would probably drive "you" crazy.

Dave

As I stated before measurements are not asked for because they are already publicly posted for all to see, no need to go over them again. So the next step for some would be to ask for opinions. Also "how" something sounds does involve measurements. Mearsurements can be an indication of how something could sound, along with other things such as personal opinions. I'm not saying that measurements are the end all, be all but they then to inject facts into an otherwise subjective issue. Measurements are needed to support claims just as evidence is needed to support facts. I believe it would be extremely careless to purchase a mid to high priced item on opinions alone, let alone strangers opinions. Again, "that's just my opinion."
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post #1445 of 2187 Old 02-18-2010, 08:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 7ryder View Post

I can't seem to find the post with the photos, do you know what number it is? thanks.

Posts 515-517, post 861, post 282.

Compare workmanship and scope of modifications to those of a well-regarded modifier's product here.
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post #1446 of 2187 Old 02-18-2010, 11:30 AM
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Originally Posted by RUR View Post

Compare workmanship and scope of modifications to those of a well-regarded modifier's product here.

That sure looks good.

But let me ask you this: does Dan sell his gear on improved measurements?

Nick
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post #1447 of 2187 Old 02-18-2010, 11:44 AM
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Originally Posted by RUR View Post

Posts 515-517, post 861, post 282.

Compare workmanship and scope of modifications to those of a well-regarded modifier's product here.

Both are different approaches to solve many of the same problems.

Rich

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post #1448 of 2187 Old 02-18-2010, 01:09 PM
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Originally Posted by RUR View Post

Posts 515-517, post 861, post 282.

Yuck!

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post #1449 of 2187 Old 02-18-2010, 01:12 PM
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Could someone who follows TUC's mods H,S&L please explain what problems are solved by covering a wire bundle with tin foil and slathering the blue paint everywhere including all over the tin foil bundles?

Looking at the PCB I would first be concerned about the copper traces that appear to have no post-etch coating. The blue goop is slathered over everything when ostensibly it is for vibration damping. The passive components look at tough they are "side-slobbered" to the original component thru- hole leads. This is less than jr. high quality soldering and PCB assembly technique.

The MODWRIGHT system at least has the appearance and construction of a first rate mod. Even if the resultant specs were not absolutely stellar in their post mod improvements, the workmanship is first rate.

I guess ol' DS is still afraid to post a part number comparison for me to research.

That tells me one thing. He has no idea of the actual details of what he is claiming to do. From the appearance, I would say he is piggybacking the same component but in a different package style from the original. This will not affect some circuitry such as power functions but in audio FR processing circuits it will affect the response but no differently that anyone simply adding a parallel cap of the same type as the original to the existing.

This will have the same net affect as a simple Baxendall tone control. That is why it MAY sound different but NOT more accurate.

One again Dave, PROVE me wrong.
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post #1450 of 2187 Old 02-18-2010, 08:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by naturephoto1 View Post

Both are different approaches to solve many of the same problems.

Rich

Rich, please tell me you are joking...
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post #1451 of 2187 Old 02-19-2010, 06:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Fanaticalism View Post

Rich, please tell me you are joking...

You may not like the appearance of the work conducted by David Schulte, but that does not mean that it is not effective. It is possible that this is the way that this work needs to look. As to the blue "paint" this is a new addition to the upgrades that is intended to act as damping, limit vibration and "noise".

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post #1452 of 2187 Old 02-19-2010, 08:11 AM
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Originally Posted by 7ryder View Post

Yuck!

Almost certainly why Mr. S. refuses to post photos of his work and why he actively prohibits owners from opening their very own units.

Thanks to this thread, those photos are beginning to appear on other A/V fora. Time for another persecution/paranoia rant from Mr. S.
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post #1453 of 2187 Old 02-19-2010, 08:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RUR View Post

Almost certainly why Mr. S. refuses to post photos of his work and why he actively prohibits owners from opening their very own units.

You keep saying this, but the fact is that DS has never asked me not to open any of my units.

Nick
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post #1454 of 2187 Old 02-19-2010, 08:53 AM
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On TUC website you (DS) state that you have caught other companies duplicating your upgrades. Could you please list some of these companies? Also could you post your warranty in its entirety? Thank you.
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post #1455 of 2187 Old 02-19-2010, 09:35 AM
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I'm still trying to get hold of a stock Onkyo to compare with my modded one, but I'm not there yet. I do however, have some other interesting comparisons to make:

TUC Pioneer BDP-09
TUC Onkyo PR-SC885
Emotiva XPA-5
Parasound HCA-2205A
Integra DTA-9.4
Denon DVD A1UDCI
Marantz MM8003
Arcam P7
LL
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post #1456 of 2187 Old 02-19-2010, 10:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by welwynnick View Post

I'm still trying to get hold of a stock Onkyo to compare with my modded one, but I'm not there yet. I do however, have some other interesting comparisons to make:

TUC Pioneer BDP-09
TUC Onkyo PR-SC885
Emotiva XPA-5
Parasound HCA-2205A
Integra DTA-9.4
Denon DVD A1UDCI
Marantz MM8003
Arcam P7

That has absolutely nothing to do with what I posted. Sounds like one of D.S. typical responses (totally avoiding the subject). I am starting to believe without question thay D.S. is posting outright LIES on his website. If not, why don't you reply and answer these very simple questions. You are the one making these statements now back them up with vetification, if it's not too much to ask. If you don't respond, on subject, I will have to believe that all this is just fabrications and lies. The ball is in your court.
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post #1457 of 2187 Old 02-19-2010, 10:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by welwynnick View Post

You keep saying this, but the fact is that DS has never asked me not to open any of my units.

Nick

You mean aside from the fact that he voids the warranty?
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrHiEndAudio View Post

TUC employs VOID IF REMOVED security labels....

Also, IIRC there have been multiple posts, on various fora, stating that "Dave has asked me not to post photos of my unit", or words to that effect. That sure sounds like "actively prohibits" to me. If you're under no such prohibition, why not post photos of your unit(s)? We already know he replaces parts and adds ferrites, foil and magical dampening goo. It's not like we can read the actual part numbers/values of the components so as to steal "proprietary" information.
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post #1458 of 2187 Old 02-19-2010, 11:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RUR
Almost certainly why Mr. S. refuses to post photos of his work and why he actively prohibits owners from opening their very own units.

You keep saying this, but the fact is that DS has never asked me not to open any of my units.

Nick

"TUC employs VOID IF REMOVED security labels simply because there have been too many instances of customers either trying to tinker with the unit, leaving the top cover off to show off to friends, etc."

Pretty much says to me don't take the cover off unless you don't care about voiding the warranty.


"One claimed and measured typically 0.01% THD+N, while the other claimed and measured typically 0.1% THD+N. Those were representative, best-case, figures for medium power outputs where THD+N is usually lowest, and not into clipping. Frequency response and load tolerance and all those good things were similar. It boiled down to this - 0.1% vs 0.01%. So which one should I have kept?"

In this case I don't think it matters since neither is audible (I believe). I think 1% is the generally accepted level that should not be exceeded. But what if TUC's mods create 5%or 10% distortion. Looking at his handiwork this seems possible. To the TUC supporters this may not matter as you may like the sound it outputs. But I believe that to the vast majority of us that would be unacceptable and would not even consider buying a piece of equipment that did this. I think we want equipment to reproduce what goes in as faithfully as possible. Isn't that what high fidelity means? So I think its perfectly legitimate for us to ask to see TUC's measurements to see how much deviation there is, positively or negatively, from the stock unit and not just for distortion. And not only from TUC but any mod company. This would be asked before making a decision to use any modder. I believe we would probably get a more positive response from others than from TUC and his code of silence. But as I've said before, I don't believe he has measurements. If he does maybe he's just too embarrassed to post them.
I also would like to hear from Denon and have them verify that they will still honor their warranty with mods done by TUC, especially with the blue goop slathered all over the place, or if the instance DS spoke about was just a one time deal. Is there an agreement between the two? Any Denon support people out there?
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post #1459 of 2187 Old 02-19-2010, 12:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by welwynnick View Post

I'm still trying to get hold of a stock Onkyo to compare with my modded one, but I'm not there yet. I do however, have some other interesting comparisons to make:

TUC Pioneer BDP-09
TUC Onkyo PR-SC885
Emotiva XPA-5
Parasound HCA-2205A
Integra DTA-9.4
Denon DVD A1UDCI
Marantz MM8003
Arcam P7

So, you're doing an amp comparison then?

None of those seem to be TUC-modded, or are you planning to record measurements of each and then send them to be modded and do a second comparison?

Btw, my money is on the Parasound. Name sounds better than the rest.
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post #1460 of 2187 Old 02-19-2010, 02:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by naturephoto1 View Post

As to the blue "paint" this is a new addition to the upgrades that is intended to act as damping, limit vibration and "noise".

And it is yet another thing, where there is absolutely no proof at all that it actually does any of those things that are claimed for it.
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post #1461 of 2187 Old 02-19-2010, 03:45 PM
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I wonder if the guy selling the blue goop has an MSDS sheet filed with the DOT.
He can't sell it for interstate commerce and no air or surface carrier can transport it unless the data is on file with the DOT and other Fed and state agencies.
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post #1462 of 2187 Old 02-20-2010, 06:38 AM
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The Upgrade Company LLC's long track record, genuine worldwide customer testimonials and "A+" Better Business Bureau rating speak volumes about our effectiveness, our credibility, and our customer satisfaction.

If you were truly interested in our products you'd try at least one out for yourself as so many others are doing. Take all the measurements you want.

We have upgraded hundreds of models to 100% customer satisfaction.

Showing up on a public forum in repeated attempts to smear our great name instead of emailing, calling or scheduling an appointment for an audition has exposed your agenda as nothing more then trying to cause trouble where none extists.

Readers see right through you repeated lies and smear campaign by now.
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post #1463 of 2187 Old 02-20-2010, 08:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrHiEndAudio View Post

The Upgrade Company LLC's long track record, genuine worldwide customer testimonials and "A+" Better Business Bureau rating speak volumes about our effectiveness, our credibility, and our customer satisfaction.

If you were truly interested in our products you'd try at least one out for yourself as so many others are doing. Take all the measurements you want.

We have upgraded hundreds of models to 100% customer satisfaction.

Showing up on a public forum in repeated attempts to smear our great name instead of emailing, calling or scheduling an appointment for an audition has exposed your agenda as nothing more then trying to cause trouble where none extists.

Readers see right through you repeated lies and smear campaign by now.

Did you just cut and paste this from one of your previous posts. You are right on one subject and that is that readers here are certainly seeing through the repeated lies and the smear campaign. And you know who I am referring too (got a mirror).

That would be the person in this thread that has made several false accusations and who will not even address them with any form of proof. Same person who will not answer any questions but wants people here to spend their hard earned money just so they can find out how bad mod work can really be done. Pretty sad IMO.

Bill


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, watch it grow and my wallet shrink ;-).

 

Denon 4311 (in preamp mode), Parasound 2100, Boston Acoustics A7200 amp, Oppo BDP-103, Consonance CD120, Panasonic TC-P60GT50 plasma, Panamax 5100EX, Salk Song Towers, Song Center, ADS 300C (surrounds) and two Rythmik F12SEs.
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post #1464 of 2187 Old 02-20-2010, 08:40 AM
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Originally Posted by MrHiEndAudio View Post

The Upgrade Company LLC's long track record, genuine worldwide customer testimonials and "A+" Better Business Bureau rating speak volumes about our effectiveness, our credibility, and our customer satisfaction.

If you were truly interested in our products you'd try at least one out for yourself as so many others are doing. Take all the measurements you want.

We have upgraded hundreds of models to 100% customer satisfaction.

Showing up on a public forum in repeated attempts to smear our great name instead of emailing, calling or scheduling an appointment for an audition has exposed your agenda as nothing more then trying to cause trouble where none extists.

Readers see right through you repeated lies and smear campaign by now.

LOL…That was compelling How about changing your tag name to MrOverPricedAudio
Also, because you are trying to sell product here, how about doing the correct thing and pay AVS for a mfg subscription Oh the upgrades, I would never buy one from Sgt Shultz till he shows what he is doing, what components are being installed. I remember when the Shultz shill started a thread in Receivers, Amps and Processors, on his Integra 9.8 upgrade. When a respected writer asked if he could see it, he was turned down. The shill used every excuse in the book from Shultz on why he could not Look and listed to the moded 9.8. Shultz even went as far as Character Assassination, Using the assertion that the AV media was out to put a black mark on their product

Everyone wants your upgrades to work…I do. But you guys are pushing the Emperors New Clothes, and all I see is a naked, balding, old man.

Like Colonel Klink says…”Shullttzz you have some explaining to do” and all we get from Sgt Shultz is "I hear nothing, I see nothing, I know nothing!"

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post #1465 of 2187 Old 02-20-2010, 09:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RUR View Post

Time for another persecution/paranoia rant from Mr. S.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrHiEndAudio View Post

Showing up on a public forum in repeated attempts to smear our great name instead of emailing, calling or scheduling an appointment for an audition has exposed your agenda as nothing more then trying to cause trouble where none extists.

Readers see right through you repeated lies and smear campaign by now.

QED

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post

Did you just cut and paste this from one of your previous posts

Bill, it's obvious that he's unwilling or unable to respond to substantive questions and has chosen, instead, to repete the same old marketing babble and paranoiac rant.
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post #1466 of 2187 Old 02-20-2010, 09:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrHiEndAudio View Post

The Upgrade Company LLC's long track record, genuine worldwide customer testimonials and "A+" Better Business Bureau rating speak volumes about our effectiveness, our credibility, and our customer satisfaction.

If you were truly interested in our products you'd try at least one out for yourself as so many others are doing. Take all the measurements you want.

We have upgraded hundreds of models to 100% customer satisfaction.

Showing up on a public forum in repeated attempts to smear our great name instead of emailing, calling or scheduling an appointment for an audition has exposed your agenda as nothing more then trying to cause trouble where none extists.

Readers see right through you repeated lies and smear campaign by now.

What a total HACK you are. Why will you not answer anybody's simple questions regarding your business. The questions are not out of line they are questions that any concerned consumer would ask. You constantly dodge every and any questions directed at you. The only logical explaination is that you are fabricating facts and claims about your work, out right LIES. If not come on this forum and prove me wrong, I bet you can't. I don't want to hear any rubbish about: call me, or email me. Why? What's your reason for not wanting to post on this forum for all to see, and to finally shut everybody up. If you are not misrepresenting your business then you can only gain from posting here. Enough of your measely excuses, post some real answers that members of this forum (I'm pretty sure) all want to hear. If your up and up then you will only profit from this. Own up to your claims and accusations, be a MAN (if possible).
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post #1467 of 2187 Old 02-20-2010, 10:40 AM
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We have upgraded hundreds of models to 100% customer satisfaction.

That's a laugh! I have seen evidence and not just here, but in several other forums as well, that your claim of 100% customer satisfaction is not true.
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post #1468 of 2187 Old 02-20-2010, 11:08 AM
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""Not all Dave""

I will at least give newcomers a chance to at least investigate the ins and outs of mods,see that some have a funny setup and the educational background of a salesman not a electrical engineer.If I can help pave that road and not make the mistakes I made i will be happy.
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post #1469 of 2187 Old 02-20-2010, 12:31 PM
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If we emailed they would just be ignored since you would more than likely say you're too busy to answer emails. If we called you wouldn't have enough tape or a hard drive big enough to record them all. There have been 50,000 views of this thread. Say 5000 of them have been following the thread all the way through. Then say 500 of them have wanted you to truly answer the questions asked here. Do you really want that many people calling or emailing you? Didn't you once say you didn't have time to come here since you were so busy getting rich? Where are you going to find time to answer all of those?
I'd be glad to have an audition. When's the next one in the Tampa Bay area? Orlando? Oh, I have to travel to Michigan for that? Are you going to the Axpona show in Jacksonville next month? Oh wait, I forgot, you stopped going to shows since you're too busy getting rich.
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post #1470 of 2187 Old 02-20-2010, 12:32 PM
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You may to reread the way the BBB works. I posted that explanation once for you.

One of the tenets of the BBB although they are NOT an enforcement or regulation operation but merely a reporting agency, is that they require companies to follow approved regimens of customer communication, honesty and not to engage in tactics that are less than professional and responsible- to paraphrase.

To THAT end Mr. HEA you have failed miserably and repeatedly.

Not one time have you provided ANY references as to education, experience, qualifications, available test equipment and/or procedures, warranty explanations, parts references, rationale as to a particular "mod" and I use that term extremely loosely and with a great deal of amusement.

As many have asked, provide us with anything factual and without resorting to the juvenile whining that we are ganging up on you and we will acknowledge your operation MAY have some measure of legitimacy.

I can not say I have EVER run across a "professional" company that has such a shoddy haphazard and totally unreliable or believable business model.

One question that I am quite curious about: Do you use off the shelf tin foil or High resolution, phase aligned, and thermally compressed, micro machined, and mirror buffed tin foil?

By the way, any membrane type structure such as tin foil inside an electromechanical device will act as a resonating surface to any form of mechanical vibration regardless of source or frequency.

That kind of negates the purpose of the blue goop elsewhere in the unit.

Prove me wrong.
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