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post #2071 of 2187 Old 04-01-2010, 04:55 PM
 
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Originally Posted by thezaks View Post

Why would I want to read about something that I don't care about? If you have a point, make it. Otherwise, skip it.

It's not whether you care for it or not, it's what you need to do when making a judgment on someone or some company. vvv
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Originally Posted by thezaks View Post

You guys speak of snake oil, but you've actually created somewhat of a snake pit. In that sense, I would not blame Dave if he didn't step in.



Quote:


Actually, I have. I expected my Pioneer to be better than the Arcam. I determined that it wasn't. That's just one of many examples of how I determined/confirmed that placebo does not apply for me.

No you have not. That's not the process for confirming such thing. It is becoming obvious that you are not informed in scientific methods of comparing. More reason for you to read up on DBT.

Quote:


Actually, I don't need to communicate more precisely. I'm not trying to convey my personal perception as fact for you or anyone else, it's only fact for me.

But you have done so inadvertently and I am trying to get you to understand that.
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post #2072 of 2187 Old 04-01-2010, 04:57 PM
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Thanks for confirming your lack of understanding of my points.

Dave

Well, you get points for consistency and tenacity.

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post #2073 of 2187 Old 04-01-2010, 04:58 PM
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It seems that all we can do is shake our heads in disbelief. Logic, facts, physics, measurements, pictures, and probably a hundred+ years of combined experience between us and we still can't get through to these folks.

So, can we get you a refill on that koolaid? Would you like dry ice with that? We heard it lasts longer and is just as safe as the water based ice.
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post #2074 of 2187 Old 04-01-2010, 05:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

Well, you get points for consistency and tenacity.

Hi Kal,

My apology - I suspect that you may have a point, and in all honesty, I'm not sure what it is. If we can get away from generalities and discuss something specific, I might be able to provide a better response.

Thanks,
Dave

FOR SALE: Chang Lightspeed Cinema 6.0 w/Hyperdrive power conditioner - was $2,000, now $790. Please PM me, if interested.
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post #2075 of 2187 Old 04-01-2010, 05:31 PM
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Originally Posted by geekhd View Post

It's not whether you care for it or not, it's what you need to do when making a judgment on someone or some company. vvv





No you have not. That's not the process for confirming such thing. It is becoming obvious that you are not informed in scientific methods of comparing. More reason for you to read up on DBT.


But you have done so inadvertently and I am trying to get you to understand that.

Hi geekhd,

* Regarding the first comment - I apologize, I'm not following you. Please hit me on the head a little more, so that I can understand the point you are making.

* I agree, I may not be informed in scientific methods of comparing. I'm only referring to placebo as it has been mentioned by the experts in this thread. The gist of what's been said is that if I was told that something was better, then in my mind I will be convinced that it's better. I was trying to show, in my example, that this did not apply to me.

* Regarding DBT, what have I missed, other than what I have stated?

* How have I tried to present my experience as fact for you inadvertently? Please explain.

Thanks, Dave

FOR SALE: Chang Lightspeed Cinema 6.0 w/Hyperdrive power conditioner - was $2,000, now $790. Please PM me, if interested.
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post #2076 of 2187 Old 04-01-2010, 05:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gizmologist View Post

It seems that all we can do is shake our heads in disbelief. Logic, facts, physics, measurements, pictures, and probably a hundred+ years of combined experience between us and we still can't get through to these folks.

So, can we get you a refill on that koolaid? Would you like dry ice with that? We heard it lasts longer and is just as safe as the water based ice.

Hi Gizmologist - I appreciate your great "sense" of humor.

Dave

FOR SALE: Chang Lightspeed Cinema 6.0 w/Hyperdrive power conditioner - was $2,000, now $790. Please PM me, if interested.
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post #2077 of 2187 Old 04-01-2010, 05:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thezaks View Post

Hi Kal,

My apology - I suspect that you may have a point, and in all honesty, I'm not sure what it is. If we can get away from generalities and discuss something specific, I might be able to provide a better response.

Thanks,
Dave

Well, here's a quote that I stole: According to Merriam-Webster’s Collegiate Dictionary, 11th Edition, perception is "physical sensation interpreted in the light of experience."
In other words, you cannot perceive the physical sensations directly but only through the filter of your experience and mental state. This process is unconscious and undefeatable despite conscious effort and/or denial. So, to trumpet that you are not influenced by imagination or placebo is to profess the impossible.

I have no problem with you or anyone else saying that you make distinctions based on subjective personal experience without any reference or controls and that these choices personal are significant and relevant to you. I do have a problem when someone does such and offers it a evidence of a real and/or objective distinction.

Kal Rubinson

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http://www.stereophile.com/category/music-round

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post #2078 of 2187 Old 04-01-2010, 06:08 PM
 
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Originally Posted by thezaks View Post

* I agree, I may not be informed in scientific methods of comparing. I'm only referring to placebo as it has been mentioned by the experts in this thread. The gist of what's been said is that if I was told that something was better, then in my mind I will be convinced that it's better. I was trying to show, in my example, that this did not apply to me.

Kal responded for me.

Quote:


* Regarding DBT, what have I missed, other than what I have stated?

Do yourself a favor, please read up on that subject.

Quote:


* How have I tried to present my experience as fact for you inadvertently? Please explain.

Lets move backward for a different viewing angle. VVV

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Originally Posted by thezaks View Post

While it's true that I didn't use any test equipment (so I cannot present anything to you as fact), it's also true that I used my Arcam DV27A as my measuring stick.


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Originally Posted by thezaks View Post

From my perspective, yes, I received a truly improved product from TUC.


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Originally Posted by thezaks View Post

I admit, I've had a great experience with Dave - he's answered all of my questions, he's been extremely generous with his concerns and his time, and I feel like I've received an improved product.



You guys speak of snake oil, but you've actually created somewhat of a snake pit. In that sense, I would not blame Dave if he didn't step in.

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post #2079 of 2187 Old 04-01-2010, 06:10 PM
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Kal responded for several of us.
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post #2080 of 2187 Old 04-01-2010, 06:32 PM
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dave,just admit it...you are happy with YOUR choice.YOUR experience was good.
But TUC did not imply to you or anyone that they were authorized?
But your sound is a happy sound.And you are a HAPPY person.
But TUC did not threaten to sue you or anyone because he got ......ANGRY.
But YOUR full of flowers happy,even though,golly gosh,your pioneer lost to the darn Arcam.
You have a very happy handfull of olives and placeboooo when you get your next upgrade from your honest,curtious emotional experience.
I personally am the gladest person for you that your imagination is finely tuned in at 82.5db.
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post #2081 of 2187 Old 04-01-2010, 06:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thezaks View Post

Hi BWG707,

I'm not intending to dance, so continue to let me know if there's more I need to address.

* I do not mess with tone levels - they are always set to zero.
* I'm not sure if you caught what I mentioned in my previous post. When I refer to looks or what I see, I'm talking about video quality, not the external appearance of the component. If you are referring to video quality in your post, then I apologize.
* Measurements and tests - it's not that it's hard for me to admit. It's just that I don't evaluate equipment based upon measurements and compression tests. I evaluate on the subjective performance. That means that the wiring inside could be a mess and the blue goop could look sloppy, but all of that doesn't matter to me. What matters to me is how audio sounds or video looks.
* Now, with regards to the longevity of the product, I suppose time will tell. Your research might demand certain tests and build quality, in order to feel more assured about the longevity. My research has to do with what the owners of these products are saying or not saying. Aside from the two folks who have been fairly vocal in this forum about their negative experience, I have not seen much of anything about issues with longevity of TUC upgraded products.
* I understand your option 3, but let me ask you this: if you are looking at two products and product A sounds and/or looks better than product B, but product B measures/tests better than product A, which one will you choose? For you, the measurements/tests is the investigation you require beyond sound/looks. For me, I research what customers say - good and bad.

Dave

I was referring to DS changing the tone levels to change the sound of the modded units, I believe you understood this to begin with and your just yanking my chain. And can you explain why in every small claims court case I've ever listened to concerning buying used cars the judge always states that everyone should have their mechanic check the car out? Mechanics check the cars using measurements and data. Judges always say thay's it's the fool who only looks, listens , and drives to make their decision. And to answer your last question about product A and B, I would pass on both and continue researching. But if I saw tin foil and blue goop smeared all over the interior I would definitely be asking questions and it would put me on alert. In the end I would more than likely pass on the smeared up unit just because of the unprofessional, shotty workmanship. If someone can not take more pride in their work than that I would rather not buy from them, and I don't think I'm in the minority about this.
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post #2082 of 2187 Old 04-01-2010, 06:49 PM
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Nick,
I do not think it is about your/s happiness with the piece of electronics in front of you or Dave or Richard..This is now about honesty,reliability pertaining not only to a moral state of business representation but also to the ability to change what has to be changed to fit your perception of purchase.
1-never had BBB now ...we are the BBB friendly,but we will sue your ass.
2-promises,promises,anger,anger,now everyone go to hell.
3-caught in false advertising and again,everyone go to hell and I will sue you
4-thats ok,because Dave and Nick and Richard will protect my every false statement.
And this is who you want to promote,says it all.
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post #2083 of 2187 Old 04-01-2010, 06:50 PM
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Quote:


thezaks Hi shake and bake,

I disagree, shopping for this type of equipment "should" be based upon personal preferences. Your using your sense of sight and sound to use and enjoy the equipment, following the purchase, so why not use it to evaluate the purchase?

We are not even talking about the same thing. You must be completely misunderstanding what I am (and many, many others) trying to get at.

Quote:


I do think that if someone has trouble with their imagination or the placebo effect, then they should do DBT (or at least SBT). I've done SBT with my wife on many occasions.

Dave

Please just watch some of the video I linked. It certainly won't hurt you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYTlN6wjcvQ


Other than that, I can only come to the conclusion that you are answering the question you wish you were asked, not the ones that were actually asked. I also can't help but think you are having fun messing with people. If not you are missing the point big time.
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post #2084 of 2187 Old 04-01-2010, 07:32 PM
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Dave,

Changing topics here momentarily, to one who doesn't think measurements are important, why did you have your display calibrated? I'm sure that when you were shopping you compared several different brands and then bought the one you liked. You probably said to yourself "well this one has the best picture so I'll buy it". But then you had it calibrated. Why not just play with the settings to get the picture more to your liking? The calibration involved taking measurements and having adjustments made to it to get it as close to the standard as possible. So why feel differently about your audio gear? That's all we (make that I) want to see with DS's measurements. I want to see what changed, what improved, what measured worse or does everything measure the same to provide the apparent increase in performance.

Not sure if I'm making my point. It's been a long day running around with a 2 year old.
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post #2085 of 2187 Old 04-01-2010, 07:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shake and bake View Post

I also can't help but think you are having fun messing with people.

Nah, I really don't think so. His sincere cheerful obstinacy is equal parts fascinating, depressing and perplexing to me, but I don't believe (customer) Dave is engaging in any sort of willfully snarky behavior. I can understand how someone else might be a bit suspicious though.

Mourning the disappearance of the -ly suffix. Words being cut-off before they've had a chance to fully form, left incomplete, with their shoelaces untied and their zippers undone. If I quote your post (or post in your thread) without comment, please check your zipper.
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post #2086 of 2187 Old 04-02-2010, 08:24 AM
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Originally Posted by CruelInventions View Post

Nah, I really don't think so. His sincere cheerful obstinacy is equal parts fascinating, depressing and perplexing to me, but I don't believe (customer) Dave is engaging in any sort of willfully snarky behavior. I can understand how someone else might be a bit suspicious though.

Hi CruelInventions,

You are right, I am not trying to engage in any willfully snarky behavior. I got a little sarcastic with Kal, and I apologized for that. Other than that, I'm honestly trying to understand and answer the questions.

Thanks, Dave

FOR SALE: Chang Lightspeed Cinema 6.0 w/Hyperdrive power conditioner - was $2,000, now $790. Please PM me, if interested.
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post #2087 of 2187 Old 04-02-2010, 08:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

Well, here's a quote that I stole: According to Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary, 11th Edition, perception is "physical sensation interpreted in the light of experience."
In other words, you cannot perceive the physical sensations directly but only through the filter of your experience and mental state. This process is unconscious and undefeatable despite conscious effort and/or denial. So, to trumpet that you are not influenced by imagination or placebo is to profess the impossible.

I have no problem with you or anyone else saying that you make distinctions based on subjective personal experience without any reference or controls and that these choices personal are significant and relevant to you. I do have a problem when someone does such and offers it a evidence of a real and/or objective distinction.

Hi Kal,

I have a different interpretation. I noticed you added "...and mental state", which was not part of the definition. Here's the definition I found for perception (from www.dictionary.com): "the act or faculty of comprehending by means of the senses or of the mind".

And, here's the definition for imagination: "the faculty of imagining, or of forming mental images or concepts of what is not actually present to the senses".

This is why I say that a person can acknowledge what is present to the senses, or, they can form something in their mind that is not actually present to the senses. In the area of audio/video, I acknowledge what is present to my sense of sight and hearing. I perceive by comprehending by means of the senses.

So, although we are all subject to imagination, we don't always have to imagine.

Dave

FOR SALE: Chang Lightspeed Cinema 6.0 w/Hyperdrive power conditioner - was $2,000, now $790. Please PM me, if interested.
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post #2088 of 2187 Old 04-02-2010, 08:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mclsound View Post

dave,just admit it...you are happy with YOUR choice.YOUR experience was good.
But TUC did not imply to you or anyone that they were authorized?
But your sound is a happy sound.And you are a HAPPY person.
But TUC did not threaten to sue you or anyone because he got ......ANGRY.
But YOUR full of flowers happy,even though,golly gosh,your pioneer lost to the darn Arcam.
You have a very happy handfull of olives and placeboooo when you get your next upgrade from your honest,curtious emotional experience.
I personally am the gladest person for you that your imagination is finely tuned in at 82.5db.

Hi mclsound,

Well, the gist of it is correct - I am a very happy person. BTW, the Pioneer lost the Arcam, but later matched and/or exceeded it.

Dave

FOR SALE: Chang Lightspeed Cinema 6.0 w/Hyperdrive power conditioner - was $2,000, now $790. Please PM me, if interested.
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post #2089 of 2187 Old 04-02-2010, 08:58 AM
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Originally Posted by BWG707 View Post

I was referring to DS changing the tone levels to change the sound of the modded units, I believe you understood this to begin with and your just yanking my chain. And can you explain why in every small claims court case I've ever listened to concerning buying used cars the judge always states that everyone should have their mechanic check the car out? Mechanics check the cars using measurements and data. Judges always say thay's it's the fool who only looks, listens , and drives to make their decision. And to answer your last question about product A and B, I would pass on both and continue researching. But if I saw tin foil and blue goop smeared all over the interior I would definitely be asking questions and it would put me on alert. In the end I would more than likely pass on the smeared up unit just because of the unprofessional, shotty workmanship. If someone can not take more pride in their work than that I would rather not buy from them, and I don't think I'm in the minority about this.

Hi BWG707,

* No, I did not understand it they way you meant it, but now that you have clarified it (along with your accusation), I can comment on it. If any product, stock or modified, differs from another product, simply because tone levels have been changed, then my personal evaluation of it will show me whether it's something I like or not. Again, it doesn't matter to me if it's only different because the product and/or the mods add some sort of tone control. The proof (for me) is in the listening, and if I like it better, then that is what I will want to buy.

* I agree with what you mentioned about the car/mechanic. The way I try to verify these things is by researching what owners are saying about the product. We can predict and test all that we want, but the proof is in the actual use.

* Why would you continue researching? Are you looking for a product that measures and sounds good? OK, you found it. Now you compare it with the product that didn't measure as well, and it still sounds better than the product you found that measured well and sounds good. What do you do now?

* I understand your final comment, and I know this is important for many folks. For me, if it performs and if it lasts, then why should I worry about what it looks like? That's why I research the longevity issue, in addition to the performance.

Dave

FOR SALE: Chang Lightspeed Cinema 6.0 w/Hyperdrive power conditioner - was $2,000, now $790. Please PM me, if interested.
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post #2090 of 2187 Old 04-02-2010, 08:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shake and bake View Post

We are not even talking about the same thing. You must be completely misunderstanding what I am (and many, many others) trying to get at.



Please just watch some of the video I linked. It certainly won't hurt you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYTlN6wjcvQ


Other than that, I can only come to the conclusion that you are answering the question you wish you were asked, not the ones that were actually asked. I also can't help but think you are having fun messing with people. If not you are missing the point big time.

Hi shake and bake,

What is the point that I am missing?

Dave

FOR SALE: Chang Lightspeed Cinema 6.0 w/Hyperdrive power conditioner - was $2,000, now $790. Please PM me, if interested.
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post #2091 of 2187 Old 04-02-2010, 09:17 AM
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Originally Posted by ronesp View Post

Dave,

Changing topics here momentarily, to one who doesn't think measurements are important, why did you have your display calibrated? I'm sure that when you were shopping you compared several different brands and then bought the one you liked. You probably said to yourself "well this one has the best picture so I'll buy it". But then you had it calibrated. Why not just play with the settings to get the picture more to your liking? The calibration involved taking measurements and having adjustments made to it to get it as close to the standard as possible. So why feel differently about your audio gear? That's all we (make that I) want to see with DS's measurements. I want to see what changed, what improved, what measured worse or does everything measure the same to provide the apparent increase in performance.

Not sure if I'm making my point. It's been a long day running around with a 2 year old.

Hi ronesp,

Great post! I totally understand, as I have a 4 month old and a 4 year old.

You are exactly right. When we bought our Pioneer Elite Pro-710HD TV, my wife and I thought that the picture looked the best. We had it for 5-6 years, we moved, and had a problem with the TV. We had it repaired - Pioneer covered 1/2 the cost of the repair - and they recommended that we get it calibrated to get it back to its optimal performance. So, we had it all done. For us, it was about the repair and what Pioneer recommended, and not because we wanted to have it calibrated to a standard.

I also use my Avia disk to set audio levels on my home theater processor. With my Arcam AV8, one reviewer recommended some tweaks, via the menu settings, in order to get the best performance. To me, the calibration, the audio levels, the tweaks, are to me about getting the best performance from the product. Of course, I evaluated each tweak and the calibration to see if it was to my liking, and it was.

I like to pick my products by my preference - what appeals most to my senses. In some or all cases, perhaps I might pick the item that measures the best -or- perhaps I may not pick the item that measures the best. I don't know, because my only concern is the performance to my senses.

Dave

FOR SALE: Chang Lightspeed Cinema 6.0 w/Hyperdrive power conditioner - was $2,000, now $790. Please PM me, if interested.
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post #2092 of 2187 Old 04-02-2010, 09:47 AM
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Was doing the random blue flashes, and sometimes maybe even shutdowns? If so, sounds like someone may have had the chronic Pioneer x10 RPTV series, power supply board solder failure.
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post #2093 of 2187 Old 04-02-2010, 09:50 AM
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Was doing the blue flashes, and sometimes shutdowns? If so, sounds like someone may have had the chronic Pioneer x10 RPTV series, power supply board solder failure.

Hi Johnla - you're exactly right. We had the blue flashes.

Dave

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post #2094 of 2187 Old 04-02-2010, 10:11 AM
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His sincere cheerful obstinacy is equal parts fascinating, depressing and perplexing to me,....

Simple confirmation bias, cheerfully delivered.
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post #2095 of 2187 Old 04-02-2010, 10:22 AM
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Originally Posted by thezaks View Post

Hi Kal,

I have a different interpretation. I noticed you added "...and mental state", which was not part of the definition. Here's the definition I found for perception (from www.dictionary.com): "the act or faculty of comprehending by means of the senses or of the mind".

And, here's the definition for imagination: "the faculty of imagining, or of forming mental images or concepts of what is not actually present to the senses".

This is why I say that a person can acknowledge what is present to the senses, or, they can form something in their mind that is not actually present to the senses. In the area of audio/video, I acknowledge what is present to my sense of sight and hearing. I perceive by comprehending by means of the senses.

So, although we are all subject to imagination, we don't always have to imagine.

Dave

Well, you can find a lot of quotes but I selected the one I posted because it is more correct and more critical than most and certainly more than the ones you posted. I selected it based, not on its source, but on my knowledge and understanding of the operation of the nervous system. Despite my signature here, by day, I am a professor of physiology and neuroscience.

Kal Rubinson

"Music in the Round"
Senior Contributing Editor, Stereophile
http://www.stereophile.com/category/music-round

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post #2096 of 2187 Old 04-02-2010, 10:44 AM
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Originally Posted by thezaks View Post

Hi Johnla - you're exactly right. We had the blue flashes.

You were lucky that Pioneer agreed to cover 1/2 the cost. For some people they refused and would not acknowledge that it was a known problem, yet for others like you they did.

But, I hate to tell you this, if the repair tech only replaced the power supply board with one of Pioneers exchange replacement boards. You could still likely have it happen again in the future, even with the replacement board. Pioneer never really fixed the cold solder joint problem, not even with their replacement boards, and not even to this day on the replacement boards they are selling right now. The only sure fix, is to actually resolder about 99% of the solder joints that are on the board you have.


This issue with the x10 and some early x20 series power supply boards is a well known problem, it's very widespread, and it's also well documented.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=402397
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post #2097 of 2187 Old 04-02-2010, 10:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Johnla View Post

You were lucky that Pioneer agreed to cover 1/2 the cost. For some people they refused and would not acknowledge that it was a known problem, yet for others like you they did.

But, I hate to tell you this, if the repair tech only replaced the power supply board with one of Pioneers exchange replacement boards. You could still likely have it happen again in the future, even with the replacement board. Pioneer never really fixed the cold solder joint problem, not even with their replacement boards. The only sure fix, is to actually resolder about 99% of the solder joints that are on the board you have.


This issue with the x10 and some early x20 series power supply boards is a well known problem, it's very widespread, and it's also well documented.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=402397

Well, I'll hope for the best then. Thanks for the info Johnla! So far, it's been 3-4 years since the fix, so I'm hoping it will last a while longer.

Dave

FOR SALE: Chang Lightspeed Cinema 6.0 w/Hyperdrive power conditioner - was $2,000, now $790. Please PM me, if interested.
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post #2098 of 2187 Old 04-02-2010, 11:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

Well, you can find a lot of quotes but I selected the one I posted because it is more correct and more critical than most and certainly more than the ones you posted. I selected it based, not on its source, but on my knowledge and understanding of the operation of the nervous system. Despite my signature here, by day, I am a professor of physiology and neuroscience.

Hi Kal,

Your post kind of sounds like - my definition is better than yours, and it is better, because I'm more qualified. However, you put it very nicely, and I very much appreciate that. I still adhere to my line of thought, and I think your definition (without the added "and mental state") agrees with it as well.

Dave

Dave

FOR SALE: Chang Lightspeed Cinema 6.0 w/Hyperdrive power conditioner - was $2,000, now $790. Please PM me, if interested.
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post #2099 of 2187 Old 04-02-2010, 11:13 AM
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Originally Posted by thezaks View Post

Your post kind of sounds like - my definition is better than yours, and it is better, because I'm more qualified. However, you put it very nicely, and I very much appreciate that.

Well, I hate to sound like an elitist (although I am) but at some point one has to acknowledge that education and experience in any field does qualify a person and make his statements, in that field, more likely to be correct than those of untrained individuals. Opinion is something else.

Kal Rubinson

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post #2100 of 2187 Old 04-02-2010, 02:53 PM
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Bottom line is if someone is making such outrageous claims of improvement in SQ and PQ, at a somewhat minimal cost, (so much so that if true he should be on the front of every audio/video publication in exsistence) and being so secretive about how he does this. I'm definitely going to want some type of measureable data to verify this. And as in this case if that person refuses to supply the data, even after he says he has it, I must assume that he is not telling the truth.
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