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post #211 of 230 Old 01-22-2010, 09:28 AM
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No no no. The soundwave will travel from behind to front of me and it will affect the room and all the things in the room in that order too. Please understand that I'm not talking about hearing stereo direction, but how the soundwave travels and affect the room, things and you.

Sound and video is not magic, it is pure physics. Physics that can be magical
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post #212 of 230 Old 01-22-2010, 09:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twitch54 View Post

again....check out the following link..........



http://www.stereophile.com/subwoofers/604velodyne/#

given your small room no more than two 12-15" servo controlled subs would be required. At what point (and cooresponding slope) do you cross over your present subs ???

lol, stereophile isnt what I call audio science

Go do some research on Harman white papers and read about bass systems.

btw, Velodyne is okay but it NIN74 is correct, it is low end!!

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post #213 of 230 Old 01-22-2010, 09:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TurboFC3S View Post

Hey NIN, you'd be smart to listen to Duke ... he may only have 20 posts, but that's a trick. He's an authority in the industry, although he's to modest to say so.
.

Duke builds some INCREDIBLE speakers!!!!

I didnt know he was a member here....cool!

He needs to come over to the DIY speaker forum and read up on all the Waveguide and tapped horn excitement! I would love his input on those topics and maybe he would post some secrets on his speakers (Im going to be building similar looking ones).

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post #214 of 230 Old 01-22-2010, 12:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

lol, stereophile isnt what I call audio science

I never said it was.....'science' , merely pointing to an article, sorry it got yours and NIN's pantys in a ruffle !

Quote:


Go do some research on Harman white papers and read about bass systems.

Go get your ears cleaned and listen to some music !

Quote:


btw, Velodyne is okay but it NIN74 is correct, it is low end!!

Again, I never said it was 'top of the food chain', but to say the 'DD' series is "crap and low end" merely indicates you still need to have your ears cleaned !
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post #215 of 230 Old 01-22-2010, 01:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twitch54 View Post

Go get your ears cleaned and listen to some music !

Or rather than making cheap ad hominem attacks, you could actually read up on research done on this subject by very qualified and respected engineers with a lot of experience in the field.

“You are not special. You are not a beautiful and unique snowflake.” Chuck Palahniuk
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post #216 of 230 Old 01-22-2010, 02:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

Duke builds some INCREDIBLE speakers!!!!

I didnt know he was a member here....cool!

He needs to come over to the DIY speaker forum and read up on all the Waveguide and tapped horn excitement! I would love his input on those topics and maybe he would post some secrets on his speakers (Im going to be building similar looking ones).

Hey, I'm not too shabby either

I don't go in the DIY section here much because all I see is sub threads. But I took a waveguided/open baffle speaker to the 2007 RMAF that got rave reviews ... Danny Richie said it was one of the top 5 he heard at the entire show, regardless of cost. I'll poke into that thread you mention.

And NIN, it sounds like you're talking yourself into believing something that isn't true, just because of casual experience. I don't doubt that something was off in the systems you've mentioned, but your blame is in the wrong place.

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post #217 of 230 Old 01-23-2010, 04:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twitch54 View Post

Again, I never said it was 'top of the food chain', but to say the 'DD' series is "crap and low end" merely indicates you still need to have your ears cleaned !


Or that one have much higher standard? The DD serie is still build like most others, too small box, too much mass, massive power = distortion, compression and inarticulate sound. It is not for me but if you think it sound fine for you, good. The world is big enough for both ours preferences.

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post #218 of 230 Old 01-23-2010, 04:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TurboFC3S View Post

And NIN, it sounds like you're talking yourself into believing something that isn't true, just because of casual experience. I don't doubt that something was off in the systems you've mentioned, but your blame is in the wrong place.


No, not correct. But I don't think we can go any futher with this, we have both difference preferences. Nothing wrong with that

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post #219 of 230 Old 01-23-2010, 04:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TurboFC3S View Post

Hey, I'm not too shabby either

I don't go in the DIY section here much because all I see is sub threads. But I took a waveguided/open baffle speaker to the 2007 RMAF that got rave reviews ... Danny Richie said it was one of the top 5 he heard at the entire show, regardless of cost. I'll poke into that thread you mention.
.

Very cool and congrats, I remember some discussion about you building speakers (I think). Do you have build threads on other forums?

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post #220 of 230 Old 01-23-2010, 04:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twitch54 View Post

I never said it was.....'science' , merely pointing to an article, sorry it got yours and NIN's pantys in a ruffle !



Go get your ears cleaned and listen to some music !

You used a reference to try and say x subs is too much for a smaller room, Im posting saying some experts would disagree with you.

Anyone posting on this site should have audio science as a consideration and if you are going to debate audio science, then learn the science. If its about listening to music then stop posting and just go listen, you do not need this forum to enjoy music.

Im posting because my hobby is audio science (building speakers, building a better setup) and how to maximize my compromises by using the known science and by using tools available. I do not read or post on this site because the topic is music (there are sites for that if someone thinks they need to discuss it somewhere). Music is subjective and all about personal taste so there is zero reason to post about it.

Quote:


Again, I never said it was 'top of the food chain', but to say the 'DD' series is "crap and low end" merely indicates you still need to have your ears cleaned !

Its just a point of view from a specific reference point and "crap" is just subjective so it shouldn't matter to you if NIN is very, very particular in his speaker/sub choices and thinks everything else sucks.

btw, I do not think they are crap but they I do know they are not high end.

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post #221 of 230 Old 01-23-2010, 05:41 AM
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Well, crap is maybe too much to say, there are worse subs out there. But all the DD I have heard are rather far away from what I want from a sub. But that cost space.
If I compare my basmodules to the same size driver in the DD serie, DD-12, the difference is huge.

DD-12: 14.5" x 14" x 15.5"
Profundus Y: 19,7" x 26" x 20,5"

DD-12: 1250 watt active sub
Profundus Y: passive basmodule with high sensitivity and high impedance, so only 2x180 (continuously) is needed. And with just one amplifier one can drive 8 basmodules, 2,5 ohm nominellt, 1,75 ohm minimum (3,33 ohm nominellt, 2,33 minimum for 6 basmodules).

So even when the DD-12 have a amp and crossoverfilter inside the box, it is still a lot smaller than the profundus Y, over 3,5 times the size of my basmodules that have no amp or crossoverfilter inside. The DD-12 need a lot of power to deliver SPL which will give problem with distortion and compression.

So they are build way different for different result.

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post #222 of 230 Old 01-23-2010, 05:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

You used a reference to try and say x subs is too much for a smaller room, Im posting saying some experts would disagree with you.

No problem.......but I for one wouldd't take too much advice from your 'so-called' experts who feel the need for 8 subs in a 200 sq ft room !

Oh and BTW.....I know this is a 'science' forum....... but only as it relates to...MUSIC !
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post #223 of 230 Old 01-23-2010, 05:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twitch54 View Post

No problem.......but I for one wouldd't take too much advice from your 'so-called' experts who feel the need for 8 subs in a 200 sq ft room !


You maybe should read a little more.

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post #224 of 230 Old 01-23-2010, 05:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NIN74 View Post

So they are build way different for different result.

NIN74, where do you cross your subs over and at what slope ?
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post #225 of 230 Old 01-23-2010, 06:30 AM
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80 hz @ 30dB/octave.

Sound and video is not magic, it is pure physics. Physics that can be magical
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post #226 of 230 Old 01-25-2010, 12:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chicagorep View Post

Depends on what you listen to. When I listen to music (CD, LP,) I listen only in 2.0, no sub. My mains go down to 45hz.

I listen to all kinds of music (except rap), and so I need good solid bass. I have Mirage M3-si speakers, which go to 30Hz, with usable response at 24Hz (-10) in an anechoic chamber according to the specs. They are bi-amped with 2 pair of B&K monos (200wpc), and I've not felt a need for a sub. If anything, I'd wonder if a bigger amp would give me a bit more tightness, though.

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post #227 of 230 Old 04-15-2010, 02:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Rrolack View Post

Simple question (I think): how low does a speaker's extension need to be (as measured by the -3 db point) before you'd consider them "full range" and would forgo a sub?

depends on what you like, the purpose, and what you listen to.

Trouble is, you can only really find out what works for you by listening to the various options in your room!

That makes it very hard indeed for a prescription answer, as no doubt you have noticed.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisWiggles View Post

I do not agree with this entirely, and it's an absolutist generalization that may not necessarily be true. You do not NEED to separate the bass drivers from the mains. But acoustically it USUALLY provides benefits, and MOST "full range" speakers are anything but and the location is not ideal for bass performance.

You do not NEED a subwoofer to have exceptional bass. It just makes things much easier, generally.

My point is merely that taking a very strongly supported and very useful and correct general principle (that additional dedicated subwoofers, properly designed and freely placed properly often away from wherever the mains location is will achieve more accurate and better bass for the listening position) and claiming it as a universality is not productive, and not true.

I must say, listen to the voice of reason rather than dogma. (kudos for the restrained nature of your posts)

^^

Quote:
Originally Posted by hd_newbie View Post

Another problem with going full-range that has not been yet discussed is low efficiency of full-range speakers. Correct me if I am wrong, but I am pretty sure I read in one of Mark Seaton's posts that there is a negative correlation between efficiency and a speaker's bass response. Thus, by going full range, you would probably be compromising dynamics, which is a significant compromise IMO.

But why do you assume all full range speakers are low efficiency??

I have tried the geddes distributed sub approach. four* two 10 inch drivers at various crossover points (all 48 db/octave), measured and eq'd.

if it matters, peerless xls. I doubt the last word in excellence, but hopefully good enough to give reliable 'trends'.

In a nutshell, I ended up taking them out. No matter what I did, or how much effort I put into the setup I simply felt the 'coherence' (for lack of a better word) deteriorated.

I do have a well treated room, and use eq on the bass, so that side is sorted. I must admit that (IMHO only of course) the bass I do have is rather good. But I could not make it better by the use of multiple subs.

Most would not be in the same position (read have subs 'just laying around' with appropriate amps etc etc) to be able to decide for themselves by audition in their own room.

So ( to my ears at least) the cookie cutter approach is not always workable.

(haha, just noticed an old thread warning, "bumping it may not serve a purpose"! haha)

In my current setup I have flat to 35 hz. With the subs I had flat to thirteen. Note my experience only applies to music, have no interest in HT and can well imagine going that low would be needed for full Ht realisation.

For sure, the first few times being 'shaken in the chair' was fun and new, but frankly after a half a dozen tracks it was irritating. (music only remember)

Then we have the situation of anomalous (I think) subsonic noises on the recording. (VAST if it matters). Quite a few times you would find yourself 'on an amusement park ride' with no musical cues. ie being shaken for no reason. True that would be a minority of recordings, but very odd!

I hazard a guess that maybe this forum is very HT oriented (?), but for me at least on 2ch I prefer my system without subs. Back to narrowing down the scope of the question.

And we all prefer different things......

As always on the net, beware of what you read (often just regurgitated datums from...somewhere) and find out what works for you.
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post #228 of 230 Old 04-15-2010, 09:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by terry j View Post

But why do you assume all full range speakers are low efficiency??

I don't anymore. I was corrected on this by others later in the thread. It seems efficiency is a function of cabinet size as well as low frequency extension. I was thinking it was only the second.
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post #229 of 230 Old 04-16-2010, 11:14 AM
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I've experimented with my system alot and finally decided that the sub is for HT only. When it comes to serious 2 channel audio I only want to hear what my Energy 22's put out. I've found that adding anything else muddies up their unique and fabulous sound. They provide enough bass for me.

For 2 channel music listening I run the 22's with a good ol Nikko 230 power amp and a NAD 705 is being used as the preamp. The Panasonic digital HT receiver I have makes a serious mess of 2 channel music. When using HT I switch the 22's into the surround receiver and use the Nikko as the sub amp to my unpowered sub.

The specs of the Energy 22 Pro is 28Hz - 20Khz +/-2db 30 degrees off axis and 28Hz - 45Khz +/-3db on axis. These are rear ported system with a 7" woofer and the amazing Dual Hyperdome tweeter.
For those days when excessive sound pressure is required I listen to my Sound Dynamics 15s pair. 15" woofers and a spl rating of 102db/1m/1W. My ears dont like that anymore
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post #230 of 230 Old 04-16-2010, 08:16 PM
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To go without a subwoofer, I would need the speakers to be capable of 16hz at 105 dB with minimal distortion at 3 meters for the music I listen to (assuming all other parameters are also optimal).


However, given normal sized rooms in a home, it is simply not practical to go without a subwoofer since the location of the speakers where they image the best is rarely, if ever, an appropriate location of the speaker for bass reproduction (in terms of minimally energizing room modes). Thus, subwoofers (multiple preferred) need to be implemented properly within a room in order to get satisfactory full-range reproduction.
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