speaker cables and jumpers vs bi-wiring - Page 9 - AVS Forum
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post #241 of 261 Old 07-11-2012, 07:17 AM
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Originally Posted by R-Carpenter View Post

yes "up" "down" smile.gif I am in Brooklyn
BTW you know NY DIY is doing Iron Driver competition "blind" this year.

Boy, that should drive Face absolutely bonkers biggrin.gif

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post #242 of 261 Old 07-11-2012, 10:29 AM
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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

...That's the whole point of bi-wiring.
Wrong. If you draw an electric circuit diagram, bi-wiring is identical to using jumpers. Bi-wiring just moves the 'jumper' further away from the speaker so you in fact use more speaker wire than required, thus draining your wallet of otherwise useful money. There is no 'point' of bi-wiring that I am aware of.

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post #243 of 261 Old 07-11-2012, 11:48 AM
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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

And that is what seems to be behind your (generic you, not you personally) typical attempt to expose of the faults of DBTs. Not that DBTs are anything like the perfect solution for every problem.
If you're a lover of magic coils, capacitors, or resistors, cables or biwiring, DBTs provide very little encouragement. Ditto for those who love hours of pontification about jitter or TIM.
I think you'll find he's in agreement with you and not a believer in woo-woo audio. Comment meant that most philes would not like the null result against their pre-existing belief system.
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post #244 of 261 Old 07-11-2012, 12:02 PM
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Originally Posted by A9X-308 View Post

I think you'll find he's in agreement with you and not a believer in woo-woo audio. Comment meant that most philes would not like the null result against their pre-existing belief system.
biggrin.gifbiggrin.gif

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post #245 of 261 Old 07-11-2012, 12:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caper_1 View Post

Wrong. If you draw an electric circuit diagram, bi-wiring is identical to using jumpers.

If that were a completely true statement, you wouldn't have to contradict it as follows:
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Bi-wiring just moves the 'jumper' further away from the speaker

Exactly.

If you write the loop or node equations, biwired and normal wiring yield two different sets of equations that are always different and can't be reduced to the same thing without introducing some approximations or assumptions.
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so you in fact use more speaker wire than required, thus draining your wallet of otherwise useful money.

Agreed.
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There is no 'point' of bi-wiring that I am aware of.

There are slight theoretical differences. If the speaker cable has adequately low series impedance, then the differences are again slight.

If you wire your speakers with something like number 36 wire (as fine as hair), it is possible that biwiring may actually produce a difference in SQ.

It turns out that you get slightly less cable loss if you leave the jumpers in place.
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post #246 of 261 Old 07-11-2012, 05:07 PM
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unfortunately circuit diagrams don't include DISTANCE from point to point, so yeah, my statement IS true. The "short" is still in the same place, with the only difference being the length of wires that connect it (either a jumper plate, or long lengths of wire). They still originate from the SAME electrical point...

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post #247 of 261 Old 07-11-2012, 05:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post


There are slight theoretical differences. If the speaker cable has adequately low series impedance, then the differences are again slight.
If you wire your speakers with something like number 36 wire (as fine as hair), it is possible that biwiring may actually produce a difference in SQ.
It turns out that you get slightly less cable loss if you leave the jumpers in place.
Agreed. 200 feet of small gauge wire would in fact be benefited with bi-wiring. But then again, if proper gauge wire were used, then this would be avoided...

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post #248 of 261 Old 07-11-2012, 06:58 PM
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Bathroom: 2 X Energy Take LCR

caper_1, how much time do you spend in the bathroom? How big is it? How is the soundstage in there.wink.gif
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post #249 of 261 Old 07-11-2012, 08:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jinjuku View Post

Boy, that should drive Face absolutely bonkers biggrin.gif

Mike is a very experienced designer who actually designs, measures and builds systems. Last year he had a first place in NY DIY in the unlimited category. (not last year, sorry, year before that. Last year, Alice took the first place) Why would it drive him bonkers?
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post #250 of 261 Old 07-12-2012, 05:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Jon Middleton View Post

Bathroom: 2 X Energy Take LCR
caper_1, how much time do you spend in the bathroom? How big is it? How is the soundstage in there.wink.gif
LOL @ soundstage biggrin.gif My logic was this: Use a shower radio that gets all static-y because it is never in the right position for FM radio, and listen to crappy FM radio while in the shower and box up my LCR's and store them... OR, do this:
PIC 1
PIC 2
PIC 3
PIC 4
Haven't you tried to crank up the music in the living room and leave the bathroom door open to try and hear it in the shower? It just doesnt work!! Bathroom is small, and the 'throne' is sorta boxed in, above which the speakers are mounted.

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post #251 of 261 Old 07-12-2012, 11:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caper_1 View Post

unfortunately circuit diagrams don't include DISTANCE from point to point, so yeah, my statement IS true. The "short" is still in the same place, with the only difference being the length of wires that connect it (either a jumper plate, or long lengths of wire). They still originate from the SAME electrical point...
That's only true if you consider that the drawn lines represent conductors of zero impedance. Draw in the actual impedances of the conductors on the two diagrams and they are different, even if only very slightly so.
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post #252 of 261 Old 07-12-2012, 12:23 PM
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Originally Posted by caper_1 View Post

LOL @ soundstage biggrin.gif My logic was this: Use a shower radio that gets all static-y because it is never in the right position for FM radio, and listen to crappy FM radio while in the shower and box up my LCR's and store them... OR, do this:
PIC 1
PIC 2
PIC 3
PIC 4
Haven't you tried to crank up the music in the living room and leave the bathroom door open to try and hear it in the shower? It just doesnt work!! Bathroom is small, and the 'throne' is sorta boxed in, above which the speakers are mounted.

This is a variation in the classic soffit mounting of speakers. Predictable effect is a fairly strong increase in bass response, which might actually help if the speakers are thin-sounding to begin with.

Usually you get best results if you bisect the corner with the primary axis of the loudspeaker system. The reflections from the ceiling and wall create 2 more virtual speakers. Try moving the speakers out a little further from the corners which may or may not sound better.

I've done this with NHT Superzeros, and the extra bass helped.

In a different acoustic context with small Infinity monitors, I had to use an equalizer to cut the bass. But you still win, because the speaker is usually cleaner sounding since it has to do less work at low frequencies for the same basic sound.
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post #253 of 261 Old 07-12-2012, 12:32 PM
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Originally Posted by A9X-308 View Post

That's only true if you consider that the drawn lines represent conductors of zero impedance. Draw in the actual impedances of the conductors on the two diagrams and they are different, even if only very slightly so.

And just to complete the story, the heavier and more tightly twisted (within reason) the speaker cables, the lower the series impedance, and the closer the wires are to having zero impedance. Using multiconductor cables with many interleaved wires paralleled into two main conductors minimizes series inductance at the cost of more parallel capacitance. However for reasonable wire gauge speaker cables that are under 20 feet long and with speakers that have reasonable impedance curves, there are few if any sonic benefits for any fancy-schmancy, and good old twin feeder does the job.
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post #254 of 261 Old 07-12-2012, 12:45 PM
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Originally Posted by R-Carpenter View Post

Mike is a very experienced designer who actually designs, measures and builds systems. Last year he had a first place in NY DIY in the unlimited category. (not last year, sorry, year before that. Last year, Alice took the first place) Why would it drive him bonkers?

I don't believe he is a fan of blind testing from his posts. Didn't say he wasn't a competent designer. The hole grin face was a tongue in cheek (they need that as an emoticon)

An audiophile likes to talk about how much they spent and how good it sounds.

A DIY'er likes to talk about how little they spent and how good it sounds.

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post #255 of 261 Old 07-12-2012, 07:38 PM
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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

Try moving the speakers out a little further from the corners which may or may not sound better..
No can do. If you saw the mounting system you would understand. The bracket is flush with the wall. I would have to add a spacer like a 2X4 block or such. I am not going to push it since wifey wasn't too pleased to begin with, and it won't make that much difference with a shower running, etc biggrin.gif Thanks for the ideas though, and you are right, they put out more bass than anticipated in there, for thin sounding speakers.

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post #256 of 261 Old 07-13-2012, 12:24 PM
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Originally Posted by caper_1 View Post

No can do. If you saw the mounting system you would understand. The bracket is flush with the wall. I would have to add a spacer like a 2X4 block or such. I am not going to push it since wifey wasn't too pleased to begin with, and it won't make that much difference with a shower running, etc biggrin.gif Thanks for the ideas though, and you are right, they put out more bass than anticipated in there, for thin sounding speakers.

Makes sense, I was just throwing out ideas. I guess this one didn't stick to the wall! ;-)
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post #257 of 261 Old 11-05-2013, 07:24 AM
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I used to be a big believer simply because having more amplifier overhead per driver would offer more control and lower distortion due to to not working as hard. However, I think I've changed my tune for a few reasons:

  1. I attended a few high end shows and noticed $20,000+ speakers designed with a single pair of binding posts. Thiel CS3.7 is one example.
  2. I've also had some issues configuring pre-amps and AVRs for bi-amping but this was likely user error and not the gear
  3. I'm skeptical about manufacturers including dual sets of terminals is a madison avenue gimmick

Sonically, I may have heard slight differences and I'll continue to experiment but I'm not yet sold on it.
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post #258 of 261 Old 11-05-2013, 03:55 PM
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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

... I guess this one didn't stick to the wall! ;-)
Too much steam wink.gifbiggrin.gif
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post #259 of 261 Old 11-05-2013, 04:15 PM
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I used to be a big believer simply because having more amplifier overhead per driver would offer more control and lower distortion due to to not working as hard.

The thread is about bi-wiring, not bi-amping.

"All men are frauds. The only difference between them is that some admit it. I myself deny it."
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post #260 of 261 Old 11-20-2013, 07:53 PM
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I have just completed another audio system upgrade.  About three years ago I did my last major upgrade, had to order the electronics, and the dealer sent me home with high-end cabling, while I waited for my order to arrive.  I had been using 14 gauge lamp cord and the jumpers delivered with my B&W CM5's and replaced it with Audioquest cables with bi-wire ends and with my old electronics immediately noticed an improvement in the stereo image, the bass response seemed tighter and the highs just a tad smoother.  Before that I wasn't sold on the higher end cabling.  So I'd recommend spending a reasonable amount on it now.

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post #261 of 261 Old 11-21-2013, 06:24 AM
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Originally Posted by ejr1953 View Post

I have just completed another audio system upgrade.  About three years ago I did my last major upgrade, had to order the electronics, and the dealer sent me home with high-end cabling, while I waited for my order to arrive.  I had been using 14 gauge lamp cord and the jumpers delivered with my B&W CM5's and replaced it with Audioquest cables with bi-wire ends and with my old electronics immediately noticed an improvement in the stereo image, the bass response seemed tighter and the highs just a tad smoother.  Before that I wasn't sold on the higher end cabling.  So I'd recommend spending a reasonable amount on it now.

Two words, sighted evaluation.
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