2-Channel Analog Interconnects/Speaker Cables - Page 26 - AVS Forum
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post #751 of 1116 Old 05-13-2010, 04:46 PM
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Hostile strangers and skeptics generate a very bad aura and this affects the energy of very sensitive people making it difficult to focus and muddying the quantum, synaptic impulses so necessary for discerning audible differences. Simply moving the person's cables introduces stresses and capacitive dislocations which alter the harmonic structure, pace and timing not to mention disturbing the feng shui arrangement which will take at least 400 hours to restabilize. I cannot blame a person for having strong objections.

"I've found that when you want to know the truth about someone that someone is probably the last person you should ask." - Gregory House
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post #752 of 1116 Old 05-13-2010, 04:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by G-Rex View Post

How does a forecast for an unenjoyable weekend become twisted into feeling threatened? You guys need to chill out, and yes that 10k offer is unrealistic, ridiculous and a manly display of peacock tail feathers.

Then, maybe an invite of Tom Nousaine to do the DBT? No charge for losing but perhaps for expenses and a right to publish results?

After all, there was another poster a while back who had a super system, $100sK - maybe a mil.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=941184

He didn't feel threatened. Oh, his setup with pictures may still be posted over at AA. Now he has a super place. Oh, he gave up mid test, impossible tell differences. Perhaps he has hearing issues?
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post #753 of 1116 Old 05-13-2010, 04:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Lhasa-lover View Post

Neutral location. You invite anybody you want. Your cables and any gear you want. I'll simply bring my cables and abx. Next objection? We will MUTUALLY agree on all specifics.

Oh, but then that neutral place doesn't have his high res system in it, including his certified room. Hard to relocate the prime aspect of a system
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post #754 of 1116 Old 05-13-2010, 07:52 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by G-Rex View Post

So I know nothing about audio...You guys can't seem to control your urges to attack.
More accurate and controlled (due to a superior signal) bass would have the appearance of increased speed because of better articulation. I love the bass detail that M&K produce and with 4 of them there is plenty of impact.

G-Rex; I started this thread and have been really enjoying the 'Piss and Vinegar' that these know it all, everything can and MUST be measured to be true folks, accuse those of us with ears that can actually HEAR things of being the ones who are the first to criticize their 'measurments', when as you can see they are just as stubborn and always ready to attack when something actually cannot be 'measured' by their sense of the word, they obviously are so 'busy with their measurments' that even the thought of some sort of subjectivity is a complete illusion to them, so just accept the actual 'fact' that they can NEVER be incorrect, and to them the world is still flat, and then smile and turn on your system, listen, enjoy your music, continue to tweak your system and just understand that the Joy of why we
even own the level of gear that we do, because its NOT about the 'measurments' or the scientific knowledge they believe is the ONLY way to judge a systems performance, that in the end has NOTHING to do with 'WHY' people own upper end audio products. After all Stereophile, the Absolute Sound or even Home Theater magazine (Oh, and their 'measurments must also be 100% incorrect') is just 'hyperbole'. Cause in the end, it really doesn't matter, they will never know the real reason or find the same level of enjoyment you and I and thousands of others do in music inspite of their 'facts' and you know that's REALLY SAD...
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post #755 of 1116 Old 05-13-2010, 08:01 PM
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Interesting response as usual. zero facts, zero proof, just the same sad "their ears just can't be as good as ours. One thing my ears pick up rather well is the sound of corporate BS. I also have a very nice system. adequate room treatments, a nice library and money in the bank.

I buy hundreds of thousands of feet of the cable used in the studios with nary a whimper about quality. They KNOW this is well made cable.

AGAIN, I ask one of you cable afficianados to explain WHY the studios that record the music YOU listen use the stock cables and not the mega buck cables.

If you want to sell the BS brands to the gullible and they fall for the BS hook, line, and sinker, fine. HOWEVER don't try making technical claims about performance because the professionals who actually know the physics can and will prove you wrong 100% of the time and with great ease.
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post #756 of 1116 Old 05-13-2010, 08:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by azsoundman View Post

G-Rex; I started this thread and have been really enjoying the 'Piss and Vinegar' that these know it all, everything can and MUST be measured to be true folks, accuse those of us with ears that can actually HEAR things of being the ones who are the first to criticize their 'measurments', when as you can see they are just as stubborn and always ready to attack when something actually cannot be 'measured' by their sense of the word, they obviously are so 'busy with their measurments' that even the thought of some sort of subjectivity is a complete illusion to them, so just accept the actual 'fact' that they can NEVER be incorrect, and to them the world is still flat, and then smile and turn on your system, listen, enjoy your music, continue to tweak your system and just understand that the Joy of why we
even own the level of gear that we do, because its NOT about the 'measurments' or the scientific knowledge they believe is the ONLY way to judge a systems performance, that in the end has NOTHING to do with 'WHY' people own upper end audio products. After all Stereophile, the Absolute Sound or even Home Theater magazine (Oh, and their 'measurments must also be 100% incorrect') is just 'hyperbole'. Cause in the end, it really doesn't matter, they will never know the real reason or find the same level of enjoyment you and I and thousands of others do in music inspite of their 'facts' and you know that's REALLY SAD...

I love posts like this because it just again proves that my current knowlege about audio allows me to have a better setup without wasting all these dollar chasing ghosts. I have never seen a posted meaurement either...In the past 1 hour I have ripped a part a speaker I bought on ebay, I have measured it and built active XOs for it....hmmm. Some of us are doing all the work while guys like you just babble on without substance. You want to make a difference. Get the meaurements done!!


Lets just assume that we all enjoy music a great deal. Some of us don't not take that passion and convert it into facts on a audio science forum.

Posting on any forum has little do with enjoying music. Its really strange that people try and make it out to be that way. People post on forums to learn and educate others about real science and real product.......

zero to do with enjoying music. We all can do that with the computer off.

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post #757 of 1116 Old 05-13-2010, 08:19 PM
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Measurements aside, I still don't understand the objections to a controlled comparison, unless it's because they're afraid that they're going to be saying "Oh Oh".
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post #758 of 1116 Old 05-13-2010, 08:35 PM
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All I am offering is a test based on what you hear! We won't measure anything. Your place, my place, neutral place, your gear, my gear, for pete's sake I'll let you set the rules with 2 exceptions, all gear driven in spec, and we use an ABX. Your whining stands by itself.
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post #759 of 1116 Old 05-13-2010, 09:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lhasa-lover View Post

All I am offering is a test based on what you hear! We won't measure anything. Your place, my place, neutral place, your gear, my gear, for pete's sake I'll let you set the rules with 2 exceptions, all gear driven in spec, and we use an ABX. Your whining stands by itself.

I don't believe G-Rex is interested in your money- if you wish to give it to charity you do not need any of us as an excuse to do so.

Some like to measure, some like to listen, and some like do a mix of both- it's all cool- there is no perfect method. So what is really the big deal here?

I heard about a Harman engineer who spent time listening to differences in contact materials- DBT. In under an hour he could reliably pick out what material he was listening to out of 4 possibilities. Afterward, he said the only problem he has is trying to explain this to the other engineers. I took the same test, and named the material I was listening to, in under 30 seconds. Given enough experience, anyone can do this.

Anyone can claim anything they please, bottom line is the limitations of our individual experiences and how we use them. It's really not a function of superior hearing or thinking; more like focus and fact building. Whether it takes one day, or 20 years, we're all capable of it!

Be the sage.
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post #760 of 1116 Old 05-14-2010, 12:56 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by penngray View Post

I love posts like this because it just again proves that my current knowlege about audio allows me to have a better setup without wasting all these dollar chasing ghosts. I have never seen a posted meaurement either...In the past 1 hour I have ripped a part a speaker I bought on ebay, I have measured it and built active XOs for it....hmmm. Some of us are doing all the work while guys like you just babble on without substance. You want to make a difference. Get the meaurements done!!


Lets just assume that we all enjoy music a great deal. Some of us don't not take that passion and convert it into facts on a audio science forum.

Posting on any forum has little do with enjoying music. Its really strange that people try and make it out to be that way. People post on forums to learn and educate others about real science and real product.......

zero to do with enjoying music. We all can do that with the computer off.

Your Funny, It just proves my point, if the ONLY thing you can talk about is 'measurements' I'm not sure what meaurements is... When presented with any other thought or idea or God forbid common sense, YOU take it as a personal attack, HMMMMMMM Last time I checked this is NOT just your forum but is open to ANYONE who wishes to express an opinion. So its nice to know you have been busy in your garage, I don't give a damn if you have been standing on your head, it means absolutely NOTHING. Your definition of 'what' an 'Audio Science Forum' is or is not means what it means to YOU and No One else. So unless it is delivered on a pair of stone tablets under a burning bush, No one really cares either way. So If you want to run your own forum, Fine. Go right ahead, just understand your Not the moderator here, so if someone wants to agrue about the existence of "Santa Claus" they have the right to do so. If you don't want to read what someone says, they have an ignore feature that I suggest you take advantage of. As far as I can tell, the ONLY thing you have measured here is the complete lack of RESPECT you have for other forum members. Again its the 'Piss & Vinegar' that you spout that really tells me what kind of person you are, I'm really SORRY that you have such a disregard for others. BTW.. Have a Nice Day! It's always good to hear from you!
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post #761 of 1116 Old 05-14-2010, 01:59 AM - Thread Starter
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Posting on any forum has little do with enjoying music. Its really strange that people try and make it out to be that way. People post on forums to learn and educate others about real science and real product.......

zero to do with enjoying music. We all can do that with the computer off.[/quote]

OH Please...
Not sure 'WHY' your here, but I think most of the people that are AVS Forum
members are here BECAUSE the MUSIC DOES MATTER! I guess we all buy our components to listen to 'test tones' and build crossovers for speakers we buy off E-Bay, and so on again into ad nauseum. Boy when I built my first Dynaco
Pat-4 and Stereo 120, I could not wait to hear some test tones thru it, Man Oh Man, WOW did those sound GREAT! Who would want to listen to Music when you could crank up the old signal generator and spend hours watching
an oscilloscope, God I miss those days... You know thats why my next system
was a HK Citation 11 Pre-Amp and a Marantz 250 power amplifier, Who would EVER go to a CONCERT and waste time listening to 'LIVE Music' when you could spend countless hours doing 'measurements' in your garage? Silly Me,
and I thought it was all about the MUSIC. OH YEAH, its also called 'Pandora'
and its music ON your computer, but I guess you can't listen if you don't
have a computer, I should be heading back to my garage to rip apart old speakers I bought off E-Bay...
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post #762 of 1116 Old 05-14-2010, 05:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by azsoundman View Post

OH Please...
Not sure 'WHY' your here, but I think most of the people that are AVS Forum
members are here BECAUSE the MUSIC DOES MATTER! I guess we all buy our components to listen to 'test tones' and build crossovers for speakers we buy off E-Bay, and so on again into ad nauseum. Boy when I built my first Dynaco
Pat-4 and Stereo 120, I could not wait to hear some test tones thru it, Man Oh Man, WOW did those sound GREAT! Who would want to listen to Music when you could crank up the old signal generator and spend hours watching
an oscilloscope, God I miss those days... You know thats why my next system
was a HK Citation 11 Pre-Amp and a Marantz 250 power amplifier, Who would EVER go to a CONCERT and waste time listening to 'LIVE Music' when you could spend countless hours doing 'measurements' in your garage? Silly Me,
and I thought it was all about the MUSIC. OH YEAH, its also called 'Pandora'
and its music ON your computer, but I guess you can't listen if you don't
have a computer, I should be heading back to my garage to rip apart old speakers I bought off E-Bay...

As I said we can all turn the computer off to listen to music. Well you can shutdown your browser and still listen.

No one is posting on AVS so that they can listen to music.

This is a AV science site. Product information, Product setup. Audio theories is what makes AVS very popular.

LIstening to music is a real world thing, online posting is not listening to music.

You obviously didnt clue into my point about doing the measurements...my point about the XO is becease I do it for OTHERS. I buy product test, listening, measure for others to gain from it. You rant on here for your own delusions, you dont not care a bit about strangers (I do). You are not here to help anyone because if you truely were you would spend the time and $$$ to get the RIGHT data to back up your inaccurate subjective opinion. The difference is that I will work for AVS members on my dime and my money while you just like listening to yourself babble on.

One of us is helping and the other isnt!

It is not "open-minded" to reject knowledge - Bob Lee
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post #763 of 1116 Old 05-14-2010, 05:49 AM
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Originally Posted by azsoundman View Post

Your Funny, It just proves my point, if the ONLY thing you can talk about is 'measurements' I'm not sure what meaurements is... When presented with any other thought or idea or God forbid common sense, YOU take it as a personal attack, HMMMMMMM Last time I checked this is NOT just your forum but is open to ANYONE who wishes to express an opinion. So its nice to know you have been busy in your garage, I don't give a damn if you have been standing on your head, it means absolutely NOTHING. Your definition of 'what' an 'Audio Science Forum' is or is not means what it means to YOU and No One else. So unless it is delivered on a pair of stone tablets under a burning bush, No one really cares either way. So If you want to run your own forum, Fine. Go right ahead, just understand your Not the moderator here, so if someone wants to agrue about the existence of "Santa Claus" they have the right to do so. If you don't want to read what someone says, they have an ignore feature that I suggest you take advantage of. As far as I can tell, the ONLY thing you have measured here is the complete lack of RESPECT you have for other forum members. Again its the 'Piss & Vinegar' that you spout that really tells me what kind of person you are, I'm really SORRY that you have such a disregard for others. BTW.. Have a Nice Day! It's always good to hear from you!

Oh no I love reading your posts because I use them as a great reference to audio ignorance

Im not one of those guys who needs to ignore anyone. I think that is a silly appoarch of those who can not easily bypass posts that they can not control their emotionals over. Everyone has a right to post on any topic. Others have the right to correct any opinion.

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post #764 of 1116 Old 05-14-2010, 06:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Skubinski View Post

I heard about a Harman engineer who spent time listening to differences in contact materials- DBT. In under an hour he could reliably pick out what material he was listening to out of 4 possibilities. Afterward, he said the only problem he has is trying to explain this to the other engineers. I took the same test, and named the material I was listening to, in under 30 seconds. Given enough experience, anyone can do this.

Yes, anyone can claim to do this. They just never seem to provide any proof that it really happened. Odd.
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post #765 of 1116 Old 05-14-2010, 06:56 AM
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At say a 95% confidence level, Joe, how many tests would be needed to reliably establish that from the null hypothesis - 50%?

"I've found that when you want to know the truth about someone that someone is probably the last person you should ask." - Gregory House
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post #766 of 1116 Old 05-14-2010, 09:00 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

You obviously didnt clue into my point about doing the measurements...my point about the XO is becease I do it for OTHERS. I buy product test, listening, measure for others to gain from it. You rant on here for your own delusions, you dont not care a bit about strangers (I do). You are not here to help anyone because if you truely were you would spend the time and $$$ to get the RIGHT data to back up your inaccurate subjective opinion. The difference is that I will work for AVS members on my dime and my money while you just like listening to yourself babble on.

One of us is helping and the other isnt!

Someone mentioned that he is a "fancy" audio cable dealer. If that's true, we have all the explanations we need on why he posts what he posts.
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post #767 of 1116 Old 05-14-2010, 09:03 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by penngray View Post

Oh no I love reading your posts because I use them as a great reference to audio ignorance

Im not one of those guys who needs to ignore anyone. I think that is a silly appoarch of those who can not easily bypass posts that they can not control their emotionals over. Everyone has a right to post on any topic. Others have the right to correct any opinion.

LMAO.. You just did EXACTlY what I'm talking about.
Ever look into a mirror? Read your first statement
You can dish it out, but can't take it.. SO Easy.. again if you take away the BS
it really says nothing! Thanks for being SO predictable.
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post #768 of 1116 Old 05-14-2010, 09:18 AM
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Originally Posted by azsoundman View Post

LMAO.. You just did EXACTlY what I'm talking about.
Ever look into a mirror? Read your first statement
You can dish it out, but can't take it.. SO Easy.. again if you take away the BS
it really says nothing! Thanks for being SO predictable.

Yeah, Im constanly showing ignorance about audio

Oh snap....you killed me on that one

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post #769 of 1116 Old 05-14-2010, 09:24 AM
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Originally Posted by diomania View Post

Someone mentioned that he is a "fancy" audio cable dealer. If that's true, we have all the explanations we need on why he posts what he posts.

yes, he is...

every now and then he starts one of these threads... never bothers to identify himself as a cable charlatan... always the same pattern, "look at how great this is"... nothing worse than a shill hiding behind the anonymity of a screen name...

vs. someone like kurt from bluejeans, who not only identifies himself, but never tries to bs anyone...

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post #770 of 1116 Old 05-14-2010, 09:31 AM
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vs. someone like kurt from bluejeans, who not only identifies himself, but never tries to bs anyone...

That is why we all would buy from Kurt because he does not hide a thing....I would never buy form a guy with a first name of Azz anyways

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post #771 of 1116 Old 05-14-2010, 09:38 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by diomania View Post

Someone mentioned that he is a "fancy" audio cable dealer. If that's true, we have all the explanations we need on why he posts what he posts.

So, then if you were a professional Escort doing whatever they do,
then acording to you, their would be NO WAY they could have a successful
relationship at home... Believe or not believe what you want, it really makes NO difference to me. It's just about the FACT that anyone who disagrees with You or whomever, their is absolutely NO tolerence for. When I played sports in HS and College, their was a lot of 'measuring' going on in the locker room. In the end it really did not have anything to do with performance. Nuff said.
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post #772 of 1116 Old 05-14-2010, 09:42 AM
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Originally Posted by azsoundman View Post

So, then if you were a professional Escort doing whatever they do,
then acording to you, their would be NO WAY they could have a successful
relationship at home... Believe or not believe what you want, it really makes NO difference to me. It's just about the FACT that anyone who disagrees with You or whomever, their is absolutely NO tolerence for. When I played sports in HS and College, their was a lot of 'measuring' going on in the locker room. In the end it really did not have anything to do with performance. Nuff said.

I also played sports while doing a double major (Mathematics, Computer Science) (hockey, basketball, football) and the real performance measuring was done on the court, field, rink.

In audio we have subjective banter and we have real hard core testing. You have choosen the side you want to be on (locker room measurements), I have choosen the side I want to be on (real performance measurements).

You have no idea if you think we have no tolerance. We do and we simply ask for more from you. How many ways can you post that your ears are good enough before its a pointless?


Gotta love that someone used an Escort reference to try and prove a point about audio...failed miserably but still funny

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post #773 of 1116 Old 05-14-2010, 10:05 AM
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"So, then if you were a professional Escort doing whatever they do,
then according to you, their would be NO WAY they could have a successful
relationship at home... Believe or not believe what you want, it really makes NO difference to me. It's just about the FACT that anyone who disagrees with You or whomever, their is absolutely NO tolerence for. When I played sports in HS and College, their was a lot of 'measuring' going on in the locker room. In the end it really did not have anything to do with performance. Nuff said."

Reminds me of the Monty Ptython gag line, "Wink wink, nudge, nudge, know what I mean?"

Never in a single post have you ever provided anything concrete about the hyperbole cables. Not once. You guys CLAIM to have a superior knowledge of cable dynamics, audio enhancement, etc. I will give you one thing though, you all have a spectacular command of a massive lexicon of adverbs and adjectives ascribed to totally nonsensical attributes of a piece of wire.

I wonder where you achieved this 10th level of enlightenment.

BTW in order to contract with a cable manufacturer, they must have all the minute specifications in order to fabricate said cable.

Every legitimate manufacturer uses lab grade equipment to test and monitor product specifications and manufacturing consistency. How do you guys do that if no test equipment can quantify the performance? How can you KNOW that the performance is not in the NEGATIVE range in comparison to a legit cable?

I seriously doubt even YOU guys would buy any piece of electronic equipment with only the same type of useless flowery descriptions you provide for your cables, but if YOU are expecting the gullible to be suckered into YOUR web, then anyone building amps, CD players or speakers should expect the same.

The simple fact that not one of you guys has the cajones to ABX your cables is irrefutable proof of the scam.

If the cable scams fail to generate enough income for y'all used cars are definitely a possibility.
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post #774 of 1116 Old 05-14-2010, 12:06 PM
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But Penn, I've heard that you can get a good musical hummer from an escort service.

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post #775 of 1116 Old 05-14-2010, 12:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ronesp View Post

Measurements aside, I still don't understand the objections to a controlled comparison, unless it's because they're afraid that they're going to be saying "Oh Oh".

Word.

I am not saying there is zero difference, but its unlikely there is a large difference. If there was, people would have passed DBT's in the past with flying colors.

No matter what side you're on (maybe its both), if you're going to try to convince someone that your side is correct you'd better supply proof. If you say cables make no difference, prove it. If you say you clearly hear a difference, prove it. Plain and simple. Why is that so hard to comprehend?

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post #776 of 1116 Old 05-14-2010, 12:17 PM
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Originally Posted by azsoundman View Post

So, then if you were a professional Escort doing whatever they do,
then acording to you, their would be NO WAY they could have a successful
relationship at home...

ironically, you are making the point of those who disagree with you when you attempt to draw this analogy... because here is what you are saying...

"at work, i sell a fantasy" (i.e. what an "escort" does)...
"at home, i deal with what is real" (i.e. what a spouse does)...

you should have thought that one through a little bit better... miserable fail there...

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post #777 of 1116 Old 05-14-2010, 12:45 PM
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The History Channel show Pawn stars just aired a segment with the exact same jukebox. It is worth thousands to a collector, but using the original function style.
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post #778 of 1116 Old 05-14-2010, 02:29 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

ironically, you are making the point of those who disagree with you when you attempt to draw this analogy... because here is what you are saying...

"at work, i sell a fantasy" (i.e. what an "escort" does)...
"at home, i deal with what is real" (i.e. what a spouse does)...

you should have thought that one through a little bit better... miserable fail there...

I understand exactly what your saying, and your right (see unlike others who are so polarized in BOTH camps) I can say and agree with your point. Me Bad.. BTW, We also carry and sell Belkin products; speaker cable, power centers and interconnects so I can keep ANYONE happy regardless of their beliefs or budget.
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post #779 of 1116 Old 05-14-2010, 07:27 PM
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Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

...

vs. someone like kurt from bluejeans, who not only identifies himself, but never tries to bs anyone...

Interestingly, he doesn't make any audibility claims for his cables.
It is all about the science of cables.
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post #780 of 1116 Old 05-14-2010, 07:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

But Penn, I've heard that you can get a good musical hummer from an escort service.

Is that 1st hand or 2nd hand?
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