2-Channel Analog Interconnects/Speaker Cables - Page 37 - AVS Forum
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Old 06-12-2010, 08:29 PM
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But then you move the cable and that alters the spacing and where it all touches and then it has to break in again.

Correct, and I haven't moved mine since I installed them for this reason. The damn speaker interfaces took 6 weeks to break in, I didn't care for them at all, at first.

Have some more boutique cable "pap".

http://www.mitcables.com/articles/in...ur-cables.html

"Arrange cables into final position before burn-in process."

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Old 06-12-2010, 08:51 PM
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Have you ever had an EKG or EEG? If so you should have noticed that cables on the gear are usually several weeks old, have been on the floor, stepped on, cleaned with disinfectant, surrounded by other cables of different purposes etc. Yet you trust your life to these cables. Why is that? They are transmitting data in the form of millivolts and in the case of EEGs, microvolts at extremely low current.

That low voltage/current combination is used to accurately measure your body's performance, diagnose life threatening illnesses and conditions and as an indicator of the necessary drugs to prescribe. In some cases, depending on what those wires pick up and accurately transmit, you may be headed for surgery.

Do you ascribe to the same stringent wire analysis in the ER as you do for a stereo? If not, why not?

What about the wiring in your computer? extremely high current at low voltages, uber high frequency circuitry right alongside DC fans, audio and video drivers, clock generators etc. Yet all this is connected with unshielded flat ribbon cable unless upgraded to bundled cable and the reason for bundling is to reduce airflow blockage for more efficient cooling.

Misinformation or noise is not an option here either yet somehow computers seem to work just fine as far as wiring goes.

How is that possible?
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Old 06-12-2010, 09:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

As opposed to being difficult to hear because of the short audible memory of a trained listener? But hearing is a lossy process Joe that depends upon the rejection of audible information that is affected by a host of variable such as mood, health, hunger, disposition, and auditory focus.

Must be a university up there in the land of 'wide right' with a EE professor you can collaborate with. Of all the cable mongers, I like you the best Joe.



In my world, hearing is a learned process which can be honed. Yes it is affected by human emotions, so what man. We are what we are. However, in time the law of averages plays out, so unless you are a very depressed or angry SOB for a very long time, in which case I would suggest talking to someone with a degree suited to your problem, you would know the difference between a good day and a bad day.

After 25 years of critical listening, I know when I'm not being an 'accurate' listener- I walk away. I would do the same when emotions affect my judgement, say during a bar fight, or when my wife pisses me off; I've learned to do this in order to save my ass. I don't need an instrument to tell me I'm in no mood to determine a logical conclusion.

For example, did you know that we humans can become 'accustomed' to the sound of a room? We can actually filter room anomalies over time, relatively quickly in fact for basic listening and testing.

I don't know the differences on an individual basis, maybe others who have understood this can ante up. In my case it takes about a month of regular listening to fully acclimate to a new listening room setting, of which I've had four different rooms long-term (now building a 5th). And by fully, I mean with all my favorite recordings and associated peculiarities I've grown accustomed to over time in the past rooms. I should note that I change system components infrequently and tend to keep gear, so have compared the same system components in different rooms in multiple combinations. My kids use my old gear in their rooms so you could add this to the equation as well.

Bottom line, never underestimate the power of the human mind.

Be the sage.
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Old 06-13-2010, 12:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Gizmologist View Post

Have you ever had an EKG or EEG? If so you should have noticed that cables on the gear are usually several weeks old, have been on the floor, stepped on, cleaned with disinfectant, surrounded by other cables of different purposes etc. Yet you trust your life to these cables. Why is that? They are transmitting data in the form of millivolts and in the case of EEGs, microvolts at extremely low current.

That low voltage/current combination is used to accurately measure your body's performance, diagnose life threatening illnesses and conditions and as an indicator of the necessary drugs to prescribe. In some cases, depending on what those wires pick up and accurately transmit, you may be headed for surgery.

Do you ascribe to the same stringent wire analysis in the ER as you do for a stereo? If not, why not?

What about the wiring in your computer? extremely high current at low voltages, uber high frequency circuitry right alongside DC fans, audio and video drivers, clock generators etc. Yet all this is connected with unshielded flat ribbon cable unless upgraded to bundled cable and the reason for bundling is to reduce airflow blockage for more efficient cooling.

Misinformation or noise is not an option here either yet somehow computers seem to work just fine as far as wiring goes.

How is that possible?

It would be interesting to have before and after measurements, then we could make an assessment of differences.

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Old 06-13-2010, 02:40 AM
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Joe, if our hearing is so great, why do we need SPL meters to set levels accurately? That's pretty basic compared to something like soundstage, microdynamics, etc. don't you think?

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Old 06-13-2010, 04:09 AM
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Listen to your system at 8:00 am and play the same music at 8:00pm and it will most definitely sound drastically different to you.

The human body is the ONLY part of the system that is not static or uniform in operation and therefore is the weakest link in the audio chain.
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Old 06-13-2010, 04:46 AM
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Old 06-13-2010, 06:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

Joe, if our hearing is so great, why do we need SPL meters to set levels accurately? That's pretty basic compared to something like soundstage, microdynamics, etc. don't you think?

It seems one of the reasons why people need a meter is that is what they've learned to depend on- they never practiced without. I've worked with an SPL meter plenty of times, and also set levels by ear, both come within about a db of each other. Try it...

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Old 06-13-2010, 07:10 AM
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Perhaps one day someone will run into you at a show where you're exhibiting - perhaps me even - and you'll get a chance to demonstrate this. Sound good?

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Old 06-13-2010, 07:39 AM
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Would love to meet you, anytime.

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Old 06-13-2010, 12:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Joe Skubinski View Post

Bottom line, never underestimate the power of the human mind.

we don't.

why do you think we ask for at least a tiny bit of control when comparing components?

gee, dunno, it's hard to think of some crazy example, gee, like someone making sure their cables are in place before burn in and then never moving them again.

I know that is hard to swallow, but I am sure that it has happened, well then again maybe it IS just some stupid absolutely crazy example that would only ever be seen in a nuthouse.

I mean, someone that crazy presumably has an exclusion zone around it? You know, that brown snaky area going from the speaker to the equipment rack where NO vacuum cleaner nor cleaning agent can approach.

But that would put them in a quandry would it not? I dare not clean it lest I disturb it (cable burn in is extremely delicate dontchya know, it is a molecular phenomenon of the dialectric, and everything affects the sound of a system so we can not disturb the carpet below it for example)...but then again the collection of dust over time ALSO now affects the sound....so presumably it is in a constant state of burn in as the dust accumulates?....

It's a tough life for an audiophile.

Luckily that was just a crazy stupid idiotic example.
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Old 06-13-2010, 04:23 PM
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Might make somebody a good wife someday.

Just kidding!

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Old 06-13-2010, 05:41 PM
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From our buddy at JPS:

"I've worked with an SPL meter plenty of times, and also set levels by ear, both come within about a db of each other. Try it..."

So you claim to be able to equal an SPL meter within 1 db.

Would that be in any room?
SQ ft/ ceiling height any concern for you?
Carpeting or reflective surfaces make no difference?
Any time of day?
No matter what the source material?
At any elevation?
At any temperature/humidity?
Any type of system 2.1 -9.1?
With/without subs?
With any acoustic treatments?
At what distance from the speaker(s) are you claiming this accuracy?
With or without people in the room?
Weighting?

Really Joe, your claims are getting more humorous with each post.

On the positive side, they are fun to read over a cup of coffee. Sort of like the comic page on a Sunday morning.
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Old 06-13-2010, 07:56 PM
 
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well, I will admit that was not the response I expected..oh I knew you would not change it nor the 'scorn' you hold for science, but I rather expected it to be along the lines of 'no replacement for ears to tell you what you like' or sumthin.

No scorn for science. Scorn for semi-scientists that are satisfied with an answer for a problem that isn't really paid too much attention to by real science, and accepting the debate as over. Science is awesome; but like religion, the problem tends to lie with human agenda.

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Tho it is a bit hard to actually get what you are saying. So, an apple when dropped can 'choose' to fly upwards? Is that where you are going? I mean, yes, I spose one day that could happen, there are some scientific trains of thought that allow for that possibility. Just like it IS possible for all the air molecules to end up on one side of the room only. Luckily for us that is a rare event eh?!

lol, no, don't mean any of those things obviously. Funny tho

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Not sales brochures, flim flam pseudo marketing speak (clean those quantums), but actual evidence of true audibility of cables. As you correctly hint in your answer, it must be science based and evidence based, in other words it seems we agree on the need to ignore anecdotal sighted evidence from any old JAIB on the net.

If you currently have nothing other than your own personal experiences to recount, I know (per your sig and answer) that you will agree with me that it accounts to not even a hill of beans, so what is your time frame to sit down with others and do a rigorous test and present us with the findings?

I am now glad that you stick by your sig, looking forward to your test.

I admit that my evidence is based on my personal testing, using processes to defeat what I perceive as my own personal bias. I have done this with others that have their heads firmly screwed on straight, and have been satisfied, surprised, and shocked at many of the results. As these tests were for our edification, professional education, and entertainment, regrettably I didn't retain notes over the years to satisfy the need to win an internet pissing match. That said, I have no desire admittedly to revisit testing that I am already satisfied with. Clearly, I believe in the results, otherwise my admittedly terse language would not be necessary.

It's just very tough when people with probably questionable social skills and presentation would propose to question your intelligence, experience, and knowledge of yourself and your close friends and colleagues - painting them as idiots, charlatans, and ignoramuses. Many of these people are respected in their fields, and their clients and colleagues respect their professionalism and honesty. These are all things that would deserve and earn a world-class beatdown in the world, so on the one hand it deserves a chuckle; on the other hand, making people crazy with words is the internet equivalent of a monkey slapping. Equally satisfying without spending the night in the bin.
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Old 06-13-2010, 08:28 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Joe Skubinski View Post

A cable's capacitance should be looked upon not as a lump sum but rather an incremental. It's basically one long capacitor made up of many small capacitors in parallel. If you have ever experienced the break-in of a capacitor in any fashion in electronic, cable break-in is similar.
In my experience I have attributed the break-in characteristics of a cable to a few variables.

Break-in of a cable as it pertains to audio reproduction can be defined as any gradual change in it's sonic character over time. Typically rated in hours or days, break-in is measured from the time of first installation to the time where no appreciable change in sound is heard. This assumes the cable is left in place and not moved or disturbed. With most cables the first few hours show a much more rapid change as compared to the days following, making the process difficult to hear primarily due to the short audible memory of an untrained listener.

The cause of break-in seems to be the effect of the electrostatic field on the polarization of the dielectric material. Without a voltage applied over time, audible changes are nearly imperceivable, primarily otherwise caused by the contact resistance of the terminations or connectors.

Factors in order of importance that point toward polarization effects in which we've been able to repeatably and consistently vary the break-in characteristics include:

1. the type of dielectric used.
2. the spacing of the surface of the dielectric relative to the surface of the conductor,
3. the method of applying the dielectric to the conductor,
4. the construction of the conductor,
5. the composition of the microscopic surface layer of the conductor.


Where the conductor is in intimate contact with the dielectric, such as in a pressure extrusion process, the break-in characteristic 'swings' tend to be much greater. Since the insulation fills even microscopic voids in the surface of the conductor, this process produces the greatest, most intimate surface contact.

Tubular extrusions on the other hand can be adjusted to create a gap between the conductor and dielectric, therefore reducing surface contact to a consistent yet variable amount. Minimizing intimate contact between the conductor and dielectric tends to help minimize the break-in characteristics.

There much much more but would require a book to cover, so please take the above as a very condensed version.

Most of these concepts are keys to the AudioQuest approach with the DBS system. Constant small voltages applied at all times; broken in out of the box.
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Old 06-13-2010, 09:20 PM
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What are these processes that you use to defeat what you perceive as your biases, jabber?

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Old 06-13-2010, 10:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Joe Skubinski View Post

In my world, hearing is a learned process which can be honed. Yes it is affected by human emotions, so what man. We are what we are. However, in time the law of averages plays out, so unless you are a very depressed or angry SOB for a very long time, in which case I would suggest talking to someone with a degree suited to your problem, you would know the difference between a good day and a bad day.

After 25 years of critical listening, I know when I'm not being an 'accurate' listener- I walk away. I would do the same when emotions affect my judgement, say during a bar fight, or when my wife pisses me off; I've learned to do this in order to save my ass. I don't need an instrument to tell me I'm in no mood to determine a logical conclusion.

For example, did you know that we humans can become 'accustomed' to the sound of a room? We can actually filter room anomalies over time, relatively quickly in fact for basic listening and testing.

I don't know the differences on an individual basis, maybe others who have understood this can ante up. In my case it takes about a month of regular listening to fully acclimate to a new listening room setting, of which I've had four different rooms long-term (now building a 5th). And by fully, I mean with all my favorite recordings and associated peculiarities I've grown accustomed to over time in the past rooms. I should note that I change system components infrequently and tend to keep gear, so have compared the same system components in different rooms in multiple combinations. My kids use my old gear in their rooms so you could add this to the equation as well.

Bottom line, never underestimate the power of the human mind.

Cable business is doing well aye?

Just teasin!
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Old 06-14-2010, 11:05 AM
 
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What are these processes that you use to defeat what you perceive as your biases, jabber?

-Use a high resolution fast switcher to prevent audible memory from expiring

-Let someone unbiased perform the switching, unseen while doing so to eliminate body language tip-offs

-Let someone else select the listening material

Basically, detach myself from the process, other than listening and evaluating. Simple really. And yes, I have been really, really wrong on occasion. Other times, nearly dead-on. This can happen, but so often, the expected results are the ones that manifest. I personally think that the (cables) that "should" win do not often enough to validate the process. Of course, this happens with all types of gear, but usually the good guy wins, as one would expect.
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Old 06-14-2010, 11:09 AM
 
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I think you were asked before what evidence has been ignored, but as usual had no answer. Your dishonesty continues to grow.

Still mad that I thought your crotch rocket was a Yamaha receiver?
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Old 06-14-2010, 11:30 AM
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Originally Posted by jpjibberjabber View Post

Still mad that I thought your crotch rocket was a Yamaha receiver?

Never was. The Kawasaki isn't a crotch rocket either, but I imagine you're used to being wrong all the time by now.

Still unable to answer the question?
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Old 06-14-2010, 01:21 PM
 
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Never was. The Kawasaki isn't a crotch rocket either, but I imagine you're used to being wrong all the time by now.

Crotch rocket, SkiDoo, some other penis compensation device; it's all the same I suppose.
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Old 06-14-2010, 01:22 PM
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Crotch rocket, SkiDoo, some other penis compensation device; it's all the same I suppose.

Feel free to man up and post what you own at any time. Again, I doubt you have much, just another fitting post from someone that is all talk, zero substance.

otherwise,can you stick to the topic or just stop posting?

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Old 06-14-2010, 01:46 PM
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Crotch rocket, SkiDoo, some other penis compensation device; it's all the same I suppose.

Still can't answer the question. What a shocker.
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Old 06-14-2010, 04:36 PM
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Originally Posted by jpjibberjabber View Post

-Use a high resolution fast switcher to prevent audible memory from expiring

-Let someone unbiased perform the switching, unseen while doing so to eliminate body language tip-offs

-Let someone else select the listening material

Basically, detach myself from the process, other than listening and evaluating. Simple really. And yes, I have been really, really wrong on occasion. Other times, nearly dead-on. This can happen, but so often, the expected results are the ones that manifest. I personally think that the (cables) that "should" win do not often enough to validate the process. Of course, this happens with all types of gear, but usually the good guy wins, as one would expect.

Thanks for answering. I guess you used that for speaker wires and maybe interconnects. What device did you use to do this? Also, if you could get discuss the procedure after the wires were connected it would be of interest as well as the number of trials and 'successes' (depends on the procedure I guess). Thanks once again.

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Old 06-15-2010, 10:46 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

Thanks for answering. I guess you used that for speaker wires and maybe interconnects. What device did you use to do this? Also, if you could get discuss the procedure after the wires were connected it would be of interest as well as the number of trials and 'successes' (depends on the procedure I guess). Thanks once again.

Thank you for actually asking pointed and reasonable questions. Others should take a clue.

As I recall, the switcher was an Audio Authority device, but I do not recall the piece. Realize this was maybe 6-7 years ago or so, might have been more.

Since I didn't do the switching, I'm not sure of the actual procedure. I do know of course that the point was to "fool" the listeners, so that we would have no clue what was playing.

In terms of trials and successes, I would say that success was maybe at about 33% (1 out of 3 trials succeeded). Overall, I believe the amount of testing was in the neighborhood of 5-6 per week over year's time; it became this fun thing we would do.

Realize I don't expect that level of success with everyone. Harman's guys will tell you that it helps to have a degree of training in terms of listening, and of course having heard better (and far worse) equipment over time from that we were comparing made things a little easier. Frame of reference (this elusive "experience" thing I keep mentioning that so many here feel is unimportant) means a ton.
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Old 06-15-2010, 11:06 AM
 
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Still can't answer the question. What a shocker.

Sorry, what was you irrelevant and combative question again?
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Old 06-15-2010, 11:12 AM
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Originally Posted by jpjibberjabber View Post

Thank you for actually asking pointed and reasonable questions. Others should take a clue.

As I recall, the switcher was an Audio Authority device, but I do not recall the piece. Realize this was maybe 6-7 years ago or so, might have been more.

Since I didn't do the switching, I'm not sure of the actual procedure. I do know of course that the point was to "fool" the listeners, so that we would have no clue what was playing.

In terms of trials and successes, I would say that success was maybe at about 33% (1 out of 3 trials succeeded). Overall, I believe the amount of testing was in the neighborhood of 5-6 per week over year's time; it became this fun thing we would do.

Realize I don't expect that level of success with everyone. Harman's guys will tell you that it helps to have a degree of training in terms of listening, and of course having heard better (and far worse) equipment over time from that we were comparing made things a little easier. Frame of reference (this elusive "experience" thing I keep mentioning that so many here feel is unimportant) means a ton.

I don't understand what you mean by trials here and how you define success. For example, was this an ABX type of test where you were first presented with A, then B, and then had to determine what X was? If so, how many times were you correct out of how many times tried?
OTOH, was it a preference test of some sort? If so, can you describe it as well as the number of 'successes' out of how many trials?

I disagree that the switcher is trying to fool you. If it's really being done randomly, and that would imply that that a random series was generated beforehand by some device (spreadsheet, coin flip, etc.) and not that the tester was deciding by himself what to do), it's nothing more than a test.

Before I forget, I also take it that you were always dealing with the same outputs on the amp. That would imply that both sets of wires were connected to the same binding posts. They were then connected to two separate terminals on the box. If so, how was the connection then made from the box to the speaker?

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Old 06-15-2010, 12:33 PM
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My system is totally autonomous and there is no indication when the transfer from A>B is made as the time varies automatically. Also the system momentarily uses BOTH cables under test in full parallel, then one or the other is dropped away. This eliminates any possibility of detecting changeover transients.
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Old 06-15-2010, 12:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jpjibberjabber View Post

Thank you for actually asking pointed and reasonable questions. Others should take a clue.

Huh?? have you read 90% of your posts? You generally want to incite OT back and forth crap.

We keep asking you to stick to the topic and insult less but you can not. Kind of sad really.

If you are now ready to stay on topic then by all means enlighten us with your years of knowledge.

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Old 06-18-2010, 10:04 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

I don't understand what you mean by trials here and how you define success. For example, was this an ABX type of test where you were first presented with A, then B, and then had to determine what X was? If so, how many times were you correct out of how many times tried?
OTOH, was it a preference test of some sort? If so, can you describe it as well as the number of 'successes' out of how many trials?

I disagree that the switcher is trying to fool you. If it's really being done randomly, and that would imply that that a random series was generated beforehand by some device (spreadsheet, coin flip, etc.) and not that the tester was deciding by himself what to do), it's nothing more than a test.

Before I forget, I also take it that you were always dealing with the same outputs on the amp. That would imply that both sets of wires were connected to the same binding posts. They were then connected to two separate terminals on the box. If so, how was the connection then made from the box to the speaker?

I don't remember those specifics honestly, only that the panel was satisfied that results were valid, mainly because many sets of results countered our preconceptions about which pieces would be "superior" under sighted conditions. And yes, this was (given that we were using only our ears) a subjective series of tests. We felt then that bias was not in play and if it was, it was diluted heavily by our methods.

Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

Huh?? have you read 90% of your posts? You generally want to incite OT back and forth crap.

We keep asking you to stick to the topic and insult less but you can not. Kind of sad really.

If you are now ready to stay on topic then by all means enlighten us with your years of knowledge.

I usually respond to insulting and condescending comments from certain members of the crowd. At least Chu (in this instance) asked reasonable questions without apparent agenda, and he got a reasonable set of answers.
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