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post #301 of 1197 Old 04-20-2011, 12:21 AM
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The problem some of us "non-believers" have is that nobody so far, not even someone with the best hearing AND the best, most "highly resolving" equipment, has ever been able to distinguish between one cable and another without knowing which is which ahead of time, and then, being able to do so a number of times with high enough accuracy to reasonably dispel the element of chance luck. All with the usual caveats here, of course.. i.e., assuming a competently made cable (doesn't take much to get there), non-extreme usage issues, etc.

And furthermore, there exists no measurements which would lend support to the notion of audible difference here. At least measured differences that would surpass well-studied and established known thresholds of even the most resolving human ear.

On the other hand, we have enough knowledge of both subtle and not so subtle psychological and physiological states that can readily account for these perceived audible differences.

Since I'm an Occam's razor guy, I gotta go with the latter as the most likely explanation here. And I won't hold my breath for some shocking new discovery to come along that will explain it all, turning known science on its head. And don't kid yourself. This is what would need to happen for any of this cables-sound-different stuff to turn out to be true.

But you've probably heard this all before, and still, you remain unswayed in your views. So carry on...


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post #302 of 1197 Old 04-20-2011, 04:29 PM
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The problem I see is the same in speaker forums if the cable connecting the amp to the speakers is better by some means not measurable would it not be defeated do to the fact
that the internal wiring of the amp and headphones usually go back to being generic wire.
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post #303 of 1197 Old 04-21-2011, 02:46 AM
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Well my Senn's arrived and it took me a while, but I finally got a chance to sit down and give them a good listen. I gave them a few hours of loud rock n roll without even putting them on to begin to break them in, then I slipped them on and played an assortment of music. Even just playing through the Denon 3311ci headphone jack I was very impressed, although I have no baseline to compare to other than a pair of bose on ear phones I use with an ipod when i cut the grass. I'll be giving them some more dedicated break in time and look forward to more sessions with them myself.

I'm still undecided about the headphone amp. Nuforce icon HDP is still the leading candidate, with the Woo a close second. Although I'm researching other brands.
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post #304 of 1197 Old 04-21-2011, 09:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CruelInventions View Post
The problem some of us "non-believers" have is that nobody so far, not even someone with the best hearing AND the best, most "highly resolving" equipment, has ever been able to distinguish between one cable and another without knowing which is which ahead of time, and then, being able to do so a number of times with high enough accuracy to reasonably dispel the element of chance luck. All with the usual caveats here, of course.. i.e., assuming a competently made cable (doesn't take much to get there), non-extreme usage issues, etc.

And furthermore, there exists no measurements which would lend support to the notion of audible difference here. At least measured differences that would surpass well-studied and established known thresholds of even the most resolving human ear.

On the other hand, we have enough knowledge of both subtle and not so subtle psychological and physiological states that can readily account for these perceived audible differences.

Since I'm an Occam's razor guy, I gotta go with the latter as the most likely explanation here. And I won't hold my breath for some shocking new discovery to come along that will explain it all, turning known science on its head. And don't kid yourself. This is what would need to happen for any of this cables-sound-different stuff to turn out to be true.

But you've probably heard this all before, and still, you remain unswayed in your views. So carry on...

In one of my other hobbies (optics) I can prove if the optics are poor, middle of the road or very good with nothing more than a steady night and a razor blade in a 35MM film can. (This is a null test for an optical system). The test takes no prisoners, and has bashed my own ego.

It appears that Audio is more subjective. I can deal with that. As I said earlier I'm well aware that there ARE some differences in cables FOR DIFFERENT APPLICATIONS. For example, I wouldn't run 18 gauge wire to carry 50 amps of 220 volts AC. Nor would I use 6 guage wire to carry a video signal from a security camera. I got that concept. I also "grok" sillysally's comment about the quality of critical components that make up a specific headphone SET. Garbage in, Garbage out. But when you try to tell me brand x cable is better than brand y because somebody silk screened a company name on a cable...sorry, I ain't buying that.

No offense to anybody, but 4 generations of Engineers after a few generations of Sailing Ship Captains...what can I tell you? It's in the blood.
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post #305 of 1197 Old 04-21-2011, 11:37 PM
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what do you mean a steady night?
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post #306 of 1197 Old 04-22-2011, 04:45 AM
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I have been into high end headphones for some time

My latest favorite is the Sennheiser HD800: I plug them into a Marantz NA7004 DAC or a Denon AVR-A100 or a Cute Beyond Headphone amp

The HD800's are excellent for me: they are open design and you can hear them throughout the room

Sennheiser also makes a neat Headphone Holder http://www.headphone.com/accessories...one-holder.php

above is my opinion only

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post #307 of 1197 Old 04-22-2011, 10:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CruelInventions View Post

The problem some of us "non-believers" have is that nobody so far, not even someone with the best hearing AND the best, most "highly resolving" equipment, has ever been able to distinguish between one cable and another without knowing which is which ahead of time, and then, being able to do so a number of times with high enough accuracy to reasonably dispel the element of chance luck. All with the usual caveats here, of course.. i.e., assuming a competently made cable (doesn't take much to get there), non-extreme usage issues, etc.

And furthermore, there exists no measurements which would lend support to the notion of audible difference here. At least measured differences that would surpass well-studied and established known thresholds of even the most resolving human ear.

On the other hand, we have enough knowledge of both subtle and not so subtle psychological and physiological states that can readily account for these perceived audible differences.


Since I'm an Occam's razor guy, I gotta go with the latter as the most likely explanation here. And I won't hold my breath for some shocking new discovery to come along that will explain it all, turning known science on its head. And don't kid yourself. This is what would need to happen for any of this cables-sound-different stuff to turn out to be true.

But you've probably heard this all before, and still, you remain unswayed in your views. So carry on...


If true, maybe I'm different. I convinced myself that the expensive 150 Cardas cable would improve my 650's sound. I really didn't hear a difference from stock.. Then, I had my SA5000 re cabled with the stock 650 cable not expecting to hear a difference & I did.. It was negative.. This makes me believe that regardless of cost, cables can influence the sound..

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post #308 of 1197 Old 04-22-2011, 11:39 AM
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Yours is a common rationale and understandable, based on such experiences. But these types of evaluation experiences have too many uncontrolled variables to be able to draw even modestly reasonable conclusions from them.

For one aspect, expectation bias doesn't require one to always be expected to hear differences when you want them to be there or expect that they should be there nor does it expect you to always positively favor the more expensive of the two things being compared. It's both more subtle and complicated than that, especially when you layer in other mitigating factors such as mood, listening material, listening volume, changes in listening focus, daily subtle physical changes upon the ear from both internal and external factors; fatigue, atmospheric pressure changes, fluid build-up, et all.

But as the human mind is wired to look for cause and effect, in everything, we have a tendency to draw false conclusions based upon what we encounter in our experiences. But without being cognizant of all the potential interfering factors and then controlling for them, the anecdotal experiences of both ourselves and those of others cannot be looked upon as anything other than that: anecdotes, not evidence. When it comes to things such as cables which have measurable differences that are exceedingly small, it is all these other issues that take center stage and are much more plausible to consider when it comes to assessing the collective pool of differing audible experiences when using different cables.

Anyway, enough about cables.. back to cans!

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post #309 of 1197 Old 04-22-2011, 08:40 PM - Thread Starter
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Well... I made a minor audio diversion today. I picked up an iPad 2 for school. I was going to grab the camera connection kit to output to my uDac and then to headphones, but instead... I decided on the Airport Express. I put together a Mini-Din to RCA cable and wired that up to the airport express out to my headphone amp. Then synced everything to my PC's iTunes library. I kind of like using the iPad to browse my library and then send the audio over to my headphones. It's pretty neat!

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post #310 of 1197 Old 04-22-2011, 09:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by b_scott View Post

what do you mean a steady night?

a night with a laminar air flow, so the Atmosphere has little effect on the light coming from a point source, such as a Star. If you go outside and see the Stars "twinkling", that is a sign of Atmosphere affecting the light.

I don't know of an analogy in Audio, but in the old days of TV antennae, snow would be the "twinkling" in the TV signal between the station and your house.
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post #311 of 1197 Old 04-22-2011, 09:35 PM
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"Sennheiser also makes a neat Headphone Holder http://www.headphone.com/accessories...one-holder.php"

I can vouch for that. They came with my 595's and help to keep the WAF high as the Headphone can safely stored, ready for use, with the cord neatly rolled up if not plugged in.

I would LOVE to compare the 595s to the 650s and 800s. Someday I will.
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post #312 of 1197 Old 04-22-2011, 10:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markrubin View Post

I have been into high end headphones for some time

My latest favorite is the Sennheiser HD800: I plug them into a Marantz NA7004 DAC or a Denon AVR-A100 or a Cute Beyond Headphone amp

The HD800's are excellent for me: they are open design and you can hear them throughout the room

Sennheiser also makes a neat Headphone Holder http://www.headphone.com/accessories...one-holder.php

above is my opinion only

Yes the HD-800's are very nice headphones now all you need is a Oppo BD-95 as your source player that is if you are still playing with your Old Pioneer BD player.

You also may want to take a look at the new head-direct HE-6 orthos, that is if you can power them. My HD-800's are now my back-up headphones and the HE-6 is my go to headphones.

Your Cute Beyond Headphone amp is a nice starter amp and a good suggestion for folks that are looking to get into headphones. Do you agree?

Nice to see you here on this thread.

"above is my opinion only"

ss
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post #313 of 1197 Old 04-23-2011, 08:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markrubin View Post

I have been into high end headphones for some time

My latest favorite is the Sennheiser HD800: I plug them into a Marantz NA7004 DAC or a Denon AVR-A100 or a Cute Beyond Headphone amp

The HD800's are excellent for me: they are open design and you can hear them throughout the room

Sennheiser also makes a neat Headphone Holder http://www.headphone.com/accessories...one-holder.php

above is my opinion only


Quote:
Originally Posted by tomandbeth View Post

"Sennheiser also makes a neat Headphone Holder http://www.headphone.com/accessories...one-holder.php"

I can vouch for that. They came with my 595's and help to keep the WAF high as the Headphone can safely stored, ready for use, with the cord neatly rolled up if not plugged in.

I would LOVE to compare the 595s to the 650s and 800s. Someday I will.

I have both the Sennheiser 595 and 650.

My so far very limited use of the 650 is that it is hands down better than 595.

Anyhow your post got me to get them (650) out and try plugging into my PC's mobo 2 channel output. To my surprise it works and gives superior sound with the cheap mobo amp, to that of the cheaper 595 which afaik is more targeted on working with cheap amps. Count me as pleasantly surprised!

The 650 is maybe an ounce or two heavier than the 595, but so far they seem to be equal on comfort.

Cheers

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post #314 of 1197 Old 04-23-2011, 08:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CruelInventions View Post

...

Anyway, enough about cables.. back to cans!

Anyone is suspect that uses a tag of: "anyways" is not a word. ever.

Cheers

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post #315 of 1197 Old 04-23-2011, 08:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sillysally View Post

Yes the HD-800's are very nice headphones now all you need is a Oppo BD-95 as your source player that is if you are still playing with your Old Pioneer BD player.

Nice to see you here on this thread.



Thanks

in addition to the Marantz DAC, I have the OPPO BD-95, Sony BDP-CX1000, Denon DBP-4010 and Olive 4HD and a Mac Mini

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post #316 of 1197 Old 04-23-2011, 11:32 PM - Thread Starter
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Ok, so what's my next logical step? I love the sound of the K702. I'm a Jazz kind of guy. I don't have much in regards to equipment. I have my Aiwa DVD-Transport, uDac, LD I+ amp and K702. I just added the iPad as an iTunes controller and Airport Express (analog out at the moment). I like the idea of streaming audio through the airport (and it can output digital 16bit). I'm wondering if I should invest in HD600, a good DAC, or an Amp as my next audio upgrade. What are your thoughts?

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post #317 of 1197 Old 04-24-2011, 03:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SID3W8Z View Post

I'm wondering if I should invest in HD600, a good DAC, or an Amp as my next audio upgrade. What are your thoughts?

Given that you put the Sennheiser HD600 headphones on the list, I'd think that the HD650's are the way to go. I mean they only cost something like an extra $40 over the HD600's. And if you need a headphone amp, amazon had a combo of HD650/HP4 for an extra $100 and that combo gets 1 interesting top review on amazon, although only 1 of 6 people voted for it, but I have to wonder what other decent $100 headphone amp options are out there.

Just a thought coz every time the subject of what to improve, responses are it's either room treatment or better speakers.

For headphones there's no need to worry about room treatment.

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post #318 of 1197 Old 04-24-2011, 07:20 PM - Thread Starter
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Given that you put the Sennheiser HD600 headphones on the list, I'd think that the HD650's are the way to go. I mean they only cost something like an extra $40 over the HD600's.

I've tried, and liked the HD600 (not as much as I liked the K702 when I auditioned them at the time), but now I think it's time to add that to the stable. I've heard the HD600 sounded better than the 650. I've also heard really good things about the Beyerdynamic DT880/600 as well. It's either of those two, or I'll finally grab a pair of the Denon AHD2000.

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post #319 of 1197 Old 04-25-2011, 01:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SID3W8Z View Post

I've tried, and liked the HD600 (not as much as I liked the K702 when I auditioned them at the time), but now I think it's time to add that to the stable. I've heard the HD600 sounded better than the 650. I've also heard really good things about the Beyerdynamic DT880/600 as well. It's either of those two, or I'll finally grab a pair of the Denon AHD2000.

I got to demo both at a friends house using a DAC1 and Oppo BDP-83 for source
and my impressions were the 580 and 600 are close enough I would not know
the difference if blindfolded however the 650's had noticeably more bass.
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post #320 of 1197 Old 04-26-2011, 08:18 AM
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I just received a pair of Denon AH-D2000 HPs yesterday and they sound very good. My use will be mostly late night listening which is the reason for chosing the D2000s (closed design). I first tried the HP output of my Parasound 2100 and it is not very good as it is totally lacking in power. I then tried the HP output with my Onkyo 886 and it has plenty of power but I want to try a dedicated HP amp. I received some very good advice here from a very knowledgable member on several HP amps.

I am kind of hung up on the PS Audio GCHA that is $499.00 new from Music Direct. The Cute Beyond is also very interesting at less than half the price of the GCHA. The other amp that interested me was the Maverick D1. The source will be a Oppo 83SE with a possibility of upgrading to the 95.

So are there any suggestions for any other HP amps other than those listed? Has anyone listened to both the GCHA and the Cute Beyond? Any thoughts and advice would be appreciated.

Bill

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post #321 of 1197 Old 04-26-2011, 08:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post

I just received a pair of Denon AH-D2000 HPs yesterday and they sound very good. My use will be mostly late night listening which is the reason for chosing the D2000s (closed design). I first tried the HP output of my Parasound 2100 and it is not very good as it is totally lacking in power. I then tried the HP output with my Onkyo 886 and it has plenty of power but I want to try a dedicated HP amp. I received some very good advice here from a very knowledgable member on several HP amps.

I am kind of hung up on the PS Audio GCHA that is $499.00 new from Music Direct. The Cute Beyond is also very interesting at less than half the price of the GCHA. The other amp that interested me was the Maverick D1. The source will be a Oppo 83SE with a possibility of upgrading to the 95.

So are there any suggestions for any other HP amps other than those listed? Has anyone listened to both the GCHA and the Cute Beyond? Any thoughts and advice would be appreciated.

Bill

I've got the same cans paired up with the Little Dot MkIII tube amp. Love the combo.


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post #322 of 1197 Old 04-26-2011, 08:42 AM
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I've got the same cans paired up with the Little Dot MkIII tube amp. Love the combo.

putox1051,

Thanks for the suggestion. I will definitely take a look at the Little Dot MkIII as tubes are an option I have thought of.

I have several more questions that maybe some here can comment on. I am looking to get a set of JMoney's ear cup pad replacements. Has anyone tried these and are they a worthwhile upgrade? It seems on comfort and the additional distance the JMoney pads provide from the D2000s drivers to be well worth it.

My other question is using the 83SE's volume control for occasional volume changes as most if not all HP amps do not have remote volume options. Any thoughts on this idea and is it a good or bad idea?

Bill

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post #323 of 1197 Old 04-26-2011, 11:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post

So are there any suggestions for any other HP amps other than those listed? Has anyone listened to both the GCHA and the Cute Beyond? Any thoughts and advice would be appreciated.

I have the Little Dot I+ which is *okay* but it looks like you've got a bigger budget. A few months ago I listened to my D2000s through a friend's Avenson Audio headphone amp and that was phenomenal, much better through my Denon's than through the Beyers and AKGs we had on hand: http://avensonaudio.com/headphoneamp.php
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post #324 of 1197 Old 04-27-2011, 10:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post

My other question is using the 83SE's volume control for occasional volume changes as most if not all HP amps do not have remote volume options. Any thoughts on this idea and is it a good or bad idea?

AFAIK, if the 83SE player's volume control is digital (which AFAIK it is), then it is at least a minor bad idea.

In general, digital volume controls should be used at 100% (on a PC, and/or on a disc player), and use the last volume control in the chain (on external pre-amp/AVR(analog)) for doing any serious volume adjustment.

Odds are you've run across this "idea" on the 83SE sound thread in the BD forum, so maybe I'm missing something here?

If you're asking for 1st hand experience with a 83SE then I can't help.
FWIW I just bought my 1st BD player (Panasonic 85) for the simple reason that I can rent BD discs from Redbox at $1.50/night). So far count me as disappointed, but that's based on my one 1st purchase (the Brosnan "The Thomas Crown Affair" but as I write this I have 2 rentals to view today).

Cheers

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post #325 of 1197 Old 04-27-2011, 10:32 AM
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I use AKG Hearo 999 Audiosphere II with a variety of sources streamed through the Apple TV 2.
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post #326 of 1197 Old 04-27-2011, 10:34 AM
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I just received a pair of Denon AH-D2000 HPs yesterday and they sound very good. My use will be mostly late night listening which is the reason for chosing the D2000s (closed design). I first tried the HP output of my Parasound 2100 and it is not very good as it is totally lacking in power. I then tried the HP output with my Onkyo 886 and it has plenty of power but I want to try a dedicated HP amp. I received some very good advice here from a very knowledgable member on several HP amps.

How do you like the Denon AH-D2000 HPs (HeadPhones) so far?

I looked them up on amazon and at 12.3 oz they strike me as heavy. I mean my ~$400 Sennheiser HD650 are 9.1 oz, and my $95 (refurb) Sennheiser HD595 are 9.6 oz (surprise, they are heavier than HD650!). But maybe closed phones are in general heavier than open phones?

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I am kind of hung up on the PS Audio GCHA that is $499.00 new from Music Direct. The Cute Beyond is also very interesting at less than half the price of the GCHA. The other amp that interested me was the Maverick D1. The source will be a Oppo 83SE with a possibility of upgrading to the 95.

So are there any suggestions for any other HP amps other than those listed? Has anyone listened to both the GCHA and the Cute Beyond? Any thoughts and advice would be appreciated.

Personally I've decided to get a Benchmark DAC1 HDR (see: http://www.benchmarkmedia.com/dac/dac1-comparison-chart ) as it covers several of the bases that I want to touch in the next few months.

Meaning a top quality DAC (that I can compare to my Bel Canto DAC3), top quality stereo pre, and likely (?) top quality HP amp.

As well as a convenient remote to adjust volume.

Cheers and Best Wishes

The best is the enemy of the good. Voltaire (1694-1778)

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post #327 of 1197 Old 04-27-2011, 10:44 AM
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$1900 DAC for $300 cans? Confused....
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post #328 of 1197 Old 04-27-2011, 11:39 AM
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$1900 DAC for $300 cans? Confused....

Benchmark DAC1 HDR DAC is multi-purpose with remote, so don't get too confused because it's more than just a "$1900 DAC".

"$300 cans" is also inaccurate: it's $400 for the Sennheiser HD650 cans!

Cheers

The best is the enemy of the good. Voltaire (1694-1778)

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post #329 of 1197 Old 04-27-2011, 11:45 AM
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Benchmark DAC1 HDR DAC is multi-purpose with remote, so don't get too confused because it's more than just a "$1900 DAC".

"$300 cans" is also inaccurate: it's $400 for the Sennheiser HD650 cans!

Cheers

Gotcha! I see you are going to use it for much more then just your cans. The $300 I referring to was actually the Denon's not the Sennheiser.
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post #330 of 1197 Old 04-27-2011, 12:50 PM
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[quote=OtherSongs;20363872]
Quote:


AFAIK, if the 83SE player's volume control is digital (which AFAIK it is), then it is at least a minor bad idea.
In general, digital volume controls should be used at 100% (on a PC, and/or on a disc player), and use the last volume control in the chain (on external pre-amp/AVR(analog)) for doing any serious volume adjustment.

I'm sure it is not the best idea but I thought I would give it a try.

Quote:


Odds are you've run across this "idea" on the 83SE sound thread in the BD forum, so maybe I'm missing something here?

No I thought of this one on my own. I tried it last night and it did not seem to have an ill effect on SQ. But that was through the HP output of my Onkyo 886 which I'm sure an external HP amp would be better. So maybe with a better HP amp issues with the volume control on the 83SE at any other setting than 100% could be an issue.


Quote:


How do you like the Denon AH-D2000 HPs (HeadPhones) so far?

So far I am happy with them but I will wait to see how they are with a dedicated amp.

Quote:


I looked them up on amazon and at 12.3 oz they strike me as heavy. I mean my ~$400 Sennheiser HD650 are 9.1 oz, and my $95 (refurb) Sennheiser HD595 are 9.6 oz (surprise, they are heavier than HD650!). But maybe closed phones are in general heavier than open phones?

I didn't feel they were heavy but to others they might be. I'm sure the added weight is due to them being a closed design. I went with the closed design as I get home late at night and my family is all in bed. So an open HP would not be a good idea.

Quote:


Personally I've decided to get a Benchmark DAC1 HDR (see: http://www.benchmarkmedia.com/dac/dac1-comparison-chart ) as it covers several of the bases that I want to touch in the next few months.
Meaning a top quality DAC (that I can compare to my Bel Canto DAC3), top quality stereo pre, and likely (?) top quality HP amp. As well as a convenient remote to adjust volume.

The Benchmark is about the best out there from what I have read. I just don't want to spend that much as HP listening will not be my primary form of listening to my system. Plus the DACs in my 83SE are of very good quality. I doubt I would hear much of a difference if using the analog outputs to a HP amp.

I think I have decided on the Maverick TubeMagic DAC D1. Certainly not on a par with the Benchmark or other audiophile grade HP amps. But the D1 is very flexible and is only $219.00 plus shipping. I think it will be a good HP starter amp.

http://www.mav-audio.com/store/index...ks7f62uc4t5507

Bill

My SACD collection, watch it grow and my wallet shrink ;-).

 

Denon 4311 (in preamp mode), Parasound 2100, Boston Acoustics A7200 amp, Oppo BDP-103, Consonance CD120, Panasonic TC-P60GT50 plasma, Panamax 5100EX, Salk Song Towers, Song Center, ADS 300C (surrounds) and two Rythmik F12SEs.
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