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post #31 of 70 Old 06-03-2010, 03:40 PM
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^^^

if i'm the chosen one, they had to get a LOT of rejections before they worked their way all the way down to me on the list...

rinnan... try pulling the speakers about a foot off the wall (18 inches would be even better) and see what they sound like then... before you go running around worrying about source/dac/avr/etc., i think you should start by giving them some room to breathe...

it's free, and i'm gonna guess that they'll sound noticeably different when you give them a little air behind them...

i forget who said it, but a good quote i remember is "speakers need space outside the cabinet as well as in it" (or at least something along those lines)...

that hardwood floor isn't helping matters any... a nice thick carpet with a nice thick pad underneath it would help too...

start with moving the speakers out and tell us what happens then...

- chris

 

my build thread - updated 8-20-12 - new seating installed and projector isolation solution

 

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post #32 of 70 Old 06-03-2010, 03:43 PM
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Your outlaw has tone controls - maybe you'd like it better if you added a little bass, and reduced the treble a little.

Everything I say here is my opinion. It is not my employers opinion, it is not my wife's opinion, it is not my neighbors opinion, it is My Opinion.
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post #33 of 70 Old 06-03-2010, 04:45 PM - Thread Starter
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Hi,

Yeah, I have definitely tried switching around on the different settings (i tried putting treble all down, and bass to max). It changes it slightly, but not drastically.

I do not know if anyone of you have tried these computer settings back in the day when you can put on different filters to the music. Like for instance "bathroom", "concert hall", and so on. I feel like one of those really bad settings is on, taking away all the depth, and that if i hit that magic switch the depth and fullness is going to come back and drag me into the deep music. No such switch exists on the Outlaw unfortunately.

I also tried playing CD's and flac's from my computer yesterday, but it was still really bad to listen to. I will try moving the speakers around tonight, and tomorrow i will try them in different setups, and different rooms (bringing them to a dealer to try to find the issue)...
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post #34 of 70 Old 06-03-2010, 05:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drew Eckhardt View Post

1. Speaker/listener placement.

Specifically:

Speaker placement near the front wall is going to boost lower bass frequencies which can be perceived as lower output at other frequencies.

We don't know where you're sitting, although without anything to suggest audiophile placement there's a good chance that you're sitting relatively far from the speakers (which increase the effect of reflections) and too close to the back wall (with the same effect). This is especially deleterious with your speakers due to their reduced output off-axis in the lower mid-range where vocals pick up warmth and thickness.

Quote:


2. Speakers/room

Speakers with a 6.5" + mid-range, conventional dome tweeter, and high cross-over frequency (including yours) don't work well because the mid-range is becoming acoustically large by the cross-over point while the tweeter is still acoustically small thus resulting a suck-out-out.

The Ultimate AV magazine revewer notes that the dialog sounds "perhaps a tad recessed" as one expects.

This has a bigger effect in rooms with hard surfaces (you have hardwood floors and bare walls) because the reflections are stronger and more identifiable.

You'd do better with speakers that have more uniform off-axis performance. Your small Klipsch computer speakers do better here because they're acoustically small and thus have broader, more uniform dispersion through the frequencies where your larger PSBs have suckouts.

You'd do better with things around you that make the space more acoustically dead and diffusive. Things like area rugs and book shelves help.

An equalizer can compensate but the solution is imperfect because you can't change the on-axis and off-axis sound independently and we don't quite know how they fit together although it's pretty much your brain adding up reflections.

From UltimateAVmag.com

Your off-axis horizontal response looks like this, where red is 45 degrees and blue 60 degrees. Farther out that dip in the midrange will be worse.



Your vertical response looks like this. Higher angles such as those causing your first reflection off the ceiling will be worse. Red is +15 degrees and blue -15 degrees.



You're looking for something like this produced by Siegfried Linkwitz's Pluto. They sound very natural as the measurements suggest and I rather like the pair in my bedroom system.

http://www.linkwitzlab.com/Pluto/specs.htm

The high frequency roll-off is a measurement artifact.





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post #35 of 70 Old 06-03-2010, 05:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

rinnan... try pulling the speakers about a foot off the wall (18 inches would be even better) and see what they sound like then... before you go running around worrying about source/dac/avr/etc., i think you should start by giving them some room to breathe...

And three or five feet would be better still.
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post #36 of 70 Old 06-03-2010, 05:25 PM
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rinnan:

Did you actually switch the cables around at the back of one speaker as was suggested earlier or just do a visual? If you haven't try ot tonite. Might save you a trip to the dealer tomorrow. Also, have you tried an actual cd to see what it sounds like? Lastly, if you get the same result at the dealers you might try a call to PSB and ask them for help. Might be a bad speaker.
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post #37 of 70 Old 06-03-2010, 05:25 PM
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I'm surprised you haven't tried a sub yet. Switching amps is not likely to do anything noticeable unless it was not configured correctly.

The Klispch computer speakers, I'm guessing like most computer sets overproduce the frequencies at around 100Hz which will gives a warm, thick sound. I did listen to them in a store before, and it's funny--I found them excessively bright and forward sounding too. Not neutral sounding at all. Didn't like them, but they did pump the bass loud enough for games to shake things.

Minijack output off a computer without a good soundcard will produce noticeably poor quality sound compared to one with a decent card. It does not matter if you play compressed or uncompressed music. It's very apparent with my desktop computer's onboard sound compared to the ASUS Xonar D2 I have hooked up; there's a large drop in midbass which gives the sound a lack of warmth--exactly what you are describing.

iPod isn't that bad, but still not that great.

My notebook's sound output is just terrible all around.

My second sound system is permanently hooked to my computer, so I've done quite a bit of experimentation to refine it as much as I could. Currently have a Peachtree Nova hooked up as the DAC, pulling the signal off a coaxial digital output, and working as integrated amp to my speakers and sub.
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post #38 of 70 Old 06-03-2010, 06:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drew Eckhardt View Post

And three or five feet would be better still.

true dat... but i didn't want to get greedy... if we can get him to at least try them 18 inches off the wall, that will be a start... unfortunately, waf might come into play... not all of us are lucky enough to be able to get our speakers 4 feet off the wall...

i'm guessing that your observation about probable seating position is correct as well...

all the other stuff about dac's/sources/etc. are meaningless at this point, regardless of what some might "know"... until he gets his speakers in a location they "like" (or gets speakers that will be happy crammed up against the wall), buying new hardware is throwing away money...

ymmv, as always...

edit: drew, thanks for chiming in... i can never put into words and pictures what is in my brain...

- chris

 

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post #39 of 70 Old 06-03-2010, 06:35 PM - Thread Starter
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Hi guys,

Thanks a lot for sharing ideas! I have physically tried to switch the red and black at the back of one speaker, but it sounded the same.

Here are more pictures of my living room, where the speakers are located:

http://img339.imageshack.us/g/p1000769l.jpg/

The couch is where i normally sit, but the bad sound is at any location.

I will try to move the speakers out in the room right now.

Is there any way for me to measure the sound, so we can look at the graphs from my speakers together?


M
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post #40 of 70 Old 06-03-2010, 06:54 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rinnan@online.no View Post

Hi guys,

I will try to move the speakers out in the room right now.

M

This is ridiculous. Sorry, i won't let my emotions take control, but the system sounds like utter garbage. And no form of positioning of me, or the speakers, changes that (i just tried multiple different positions). This system kills my music. It is flat, bright, and extremely unfilling.

Sorry to blabber on like this, but it really irritates me when i hear the sound. I know how good the songs are and it simply destroys it.

Will be interesting to see tomorrow i guess.
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post #41 of 70 Old 06-03-2010, 07:30 PM
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I never came close to saying that the ipod's dac was substandard. The level of compression to fit a full library on one is the killer.

I can live with the sound of mp3 while jogging but that is about it. Then again I may find some on this forum that will argue that it all "sounds the same". If it does to you then I am sorry.

rinnan,

I know what you are hearing. I once thought the ipod was my holy grail but it wasn't to be so. Compressed music shows its limitations very quickly through good speakers and related equipment.
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post #42 of 70 Old 06-03-2010, 08:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rinnan@online.no View Post

This is ridiculous. Sorry, i won't let my emotions take control, but the system sounds like utter garbage. And no form of positioning of me, or the speakers, changes that (i just tried multiple different positions). This system kills my music. It is flat, bright, and extremely unfilling.

Sorry to blabber on like this, but it really irritates me when i hear the sound. I know how good the songs are and it simply destroys it.

Will be interesting to see tomorrow i guess.

Maybe one or both of the speakers have some defect, either in the drivers or crossover. You would think they would have been tested before leaving the factory, but you never know. I bought a speaker once that never sounded quite right (too much mid-bass, sucked out upper midrange) no matter how I played around with positioning, so I sent it back. Turned out the manufacturer admitted to me later that the crossover was wired incorrectly!
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post #43 of 70 Old 06-03-2010, 09:38 PM
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It seriously does not make much sense, but if nothing seems to work, send it all back and find a local shop to hear what sounds right.
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post #44 of 70 Old 06-04-2010, 05:06 AM
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First thing, if you were to clap your hands vigorously, do you hear any echo like after effects? Does it change when you do it in different parts of the room?

Second thing, and I don't know how it sits with you, is the room just has so many hard surfaces. The thing is, it presents a bit of a dilemma. On the one hand, having the room like you have it - very nice wood floors that beg to be shown off, minimal stuff on the walls that give the room a clean look, etc. - has a certain aesthetic appeal and makes the room appear much larger than it is especially with that vaulted ceiling in the middle. Because of the size of the room, you really don't have the ability to move the speakers out because it creates congestion making the room appear more like an obstacle course.

So, what to do? Well, without spending money, you can experiment with your present speakers and see if a 'live end - dead end' approach works for you. The dumbed down explanation of that is that one end of the room is deadened (the area behind the speakers) while the other end is live (hard surfaces). If you've got some heavy blankets, comforters, whatever, and you can find a way to place them behind the speakers and TV, you can see if that helps. Still might have to move the speakers around some (side to side, out a bit, angled a bit) but you'll either get an improvement or you won't. If it's positive, what happens when you toss some blankets on the floor to simulate carpeting (doesn't have to be wall to wall...like an area rug).

The third thing is maybe after all the above, these aren't the type of speakers for you. Maybe you can return them and see about finding some MTM true D'Appolito speakers. Properly done, these sorts of speakers severely constrain the vertical dispersion of the sound which minimizes floor and ceiling interactions.

The fourth thing is spring for a really, really good set of headphones and say screw the room. See if you can find some nice electrostatics, 'course it won't cost you a hundred dollars either.

"I've found that when you want to know the truth about someone that someone is probably the last person you should ask." - Gregory House
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post #45 of 70 Old 06-04-2010, 06:29 AM - Thread Starter
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No echo effect in the room. I am no expert, but i highly doubt this is a room/positioning issue. I tried placing the speakers in the middle of the room, with the front into the wall, with the back into the wall, two feet from the wall, five feet from the wall, angled outwards, angled inwards, etc. etc.

Small differences are audible, but it does not change the key issue, that the sound coming out of the speakers are not very good.

In a couple of hours I will have the chance to try it with other gear, in a new room, and compare it with other speakers, at a local nyc dealer. Will be interesting to see, and i will definitely report back here.

M
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post #46 of 70 Old 06-04-2010, 06:33 AM
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Sure, it could very well be that the speakers are messed up.

"I've found that when you want to know the truth about someone that someone is probably the last person you should ask." - Gregory House
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post #47 of 70 Old 06-04-2010, 08:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rinnan@online.no View Post

Thanks a lot for sharing ideas! I have physically tried to switch the red and black at the back of one speaker, but it sounded the same.

Does you receiver have MONO switch. It is possible that it is engaged. Also check your signal cable. If it shorts left and right channels together, then result is similar to what you described. When you connected receiver to computer, did you use the same cable that you use for iPod?

Try to find a record with large separation of channels and compare what you get out of left and right speakers.

Also try to use another input in your receiver, to see if there is any difference.
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post #48 of 70 Old 06-04-2010, 11:27 AM - Thread Starter
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I just got back from Park Avenue Audio, where I got to test various setups with my PSB T65.

Tested:
1. My current setup in their room (iPhone 3.5mm_RCA --> Outlaw RR2150 --> T65)
2. T65s with the Integrated Rotel RA-05 SE
3. T65s with the Integrated Rotel that is twice the price of the one above (don't remember model)
4. T65s with the Rotel as a preamp, connected to a Rotel power amp.
5. T65s with the Integrated Peachtree Nova
6. T65s with a high quality CD player as the source, and all of these other settings
7. T65s with the Wadia dock sending digital output from the iPhone 3G to the peachtree.

The normal source was the iphone with simple 3.5mm_RCA to the receiver.

Results:
The first thing I can say is that luckily the speakers are not broken. The receiver is another question. It should be said that my rr2150 sounded better in the dealer's room than in my living room, but the low and mid ranges was still pretty flat, and overall sound not engaging and deep. I believe these issues were magnified by the poor listening space in my apartment. We then tried the Rotel RA-05 SE, which actually sounded a lot better than my current receiver. I now heard a lot more of the depth and the fullness that I had been looking for. Switching to the Wadia dock did not make a major difference, though it was slightly audible. I actually preferred the RA-05 over the more expensive, and more powerful, big brother (don't remember model name). I also did not think that the Peachtree, or using a separate power amp, was a very large improvement. The biggest gap was from the rr2150 to the Rotel. I also want to mention that using a CD player as the source created fantastic sound. I might buy the Emotiva CD player, but I don’t own a single CD, so this might be a waste. Perhaps it is just as good to buy CD’s, rip them, and play it from my PC through a good quality USB to the DAC.

I would actually like to try the NAD C372 at some point, to compare to the Rotel, but that will have to be when I find a store where I can return it for full refund.

It should be said that I have not yet tried the system in my own apt., so I am curious about how it will sound.
I ended up buying the Musical Fidelity V-DAC, and the Rotel RA-05 SE.

I will report back as soon as I get home, and can try the setup.

Thank you all very much for all the insightful posts, I have definitely learned a lot.

M
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post #49 of 70 Old 06-04-2010, 11:48 AM
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Rinnan, you probably mentioned it, but how are you obtaining the stuff stored on your iPod and in what format is it?

"I've found that when you want to know the truth about someone that someone is probably the last person you should ask." - Gregory House
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post #50 of 70 Old 06-04-2010, 11:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rinnan@online.no View Post

I just got back from Park Avenue Audio, where I got to test various setups with my PSB T65.

Tested:
1. My current setup in their room (iPhone 3.5mm_RCA --> Outlaw RR2150 --> T65)
2. T65s with the Integrated Rotel RA-05 SE
3. T65s with the Integrated Rotel that is twice the price of the one above (don't remember model)
4. T65s with the Rotel as a preamp, connected to a Rotel power amp.
5. T65s with the Integrated Peachtree Nova
6. T65s with a high quality CD player as the source, and all of these other settings
7. T65s with the Wadia dock sending digital output from the iPhone 3G to the peachtree.

The normal source was the iphone with simple 3.5mm_RCA to the receiver.

Results:
The first thing I can say is that luckily the speakers are not broken. The receiver is another question. It should be said that my rr2150 sounded better in the dealer's room than in my living room, but the low and mid ranges was still pretty flat, and overall sound not engaging and deep. I believe these issues were magnified by the poor listening space in my apartment. We then tried the Rotel RA-05 SE, which actually sounded a lot better than my current receiver. I now heard a lot more of the depth and the fullness that I had been looking for. Switching to the Wadia dock did not make a major difference, though it was slightly audible. I actually preferred the RA-05 over the more expensive, and more powerful, big brother (don't remember model name). I also did not think that the Peachtree, or using a separate power amp, was a very large improvement. The biggest gap was from the rr2150 to the Rotel. I also want to mention that using a CD player as the source created fantastic sound. I might buy the Emotiva CD player, but I don’t own a single CD, so this might be a waste. Perhaps it is just as good to buy CD’s, rip them, and play it from my PC through a good quality USB to the DAC.

I would actually like to try the NAD C372 at some point, to compare to the Rotel, but that will have to be when I find a store where I can return it for full refund.

It should be said that I have not yet tried the system in my own apt., so I am curious about how it will sound.
I ended up buying the Musical Fidelity V-DAC, and the Rotel RA-05 SE.

I will report back as soon as I get home, and can try the setup.

Thank you all very much for all the insightful posts, I have definitely learned a lot.

M

You should get measurements of your PC speakers vs your new setup.

From your two threads and all your opinions I really think you might be used to "bass boost" and not really use to better accuracy. This is very common, most people like their bass +5dB or greater. Your PC speakers could have easily had "hot" bass (I Know mine do).

You need to compare the measurements of the two but that might be impossible for you to do. I wonder what the impedance curve on those Speakers looks like, it sounds like there isnt enough power to drive the lower frequencies. Other then that if you didnt level match during your listening test then you might be just wasting money thinking they are better....I dislike so called listening tests at local hifi stores for this reason.

Also, you should not be spending more on electronics. You should never spend even 1/2 the cost of your speakers on electronics ( like a 3 or 4 to 1 ratio). Speakers and room is 99% of the SQ audio game. Spending money anywhere else is very wasteful. Heck, buy a sub before you waste $$$ on overpriced Nad or Rotel products.

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post #51 of 70 Old 06-04-2010, 12:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

Rinnan, you probably mentioned it, but how are you obtaining the stuff stored on your iPod and in what format is it?

I tried both mp3 and flac and CD played from PC.
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post #52 of 70 Old 06-04-2010, 12:11 PM - Thread Starter
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Penngray:
The Klipsch system might have such a bass boost feature? They do have a sub at least (http://www.klipsch.com/na-en/product...-2-1-overview/), but i still think the tower speakers should have a strong and deep sound w/o a sub.

How do I go about measuring the sound? I wanted to do that actually, so I could have some hard evidence on what i am hearing.

I am almost within your electronics range... The MSRP on the T65 is approx $1,000, and the rotel amp was $600. The DAC was $300.


M
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post #53 of 70 Old 06-04-2010, 12:36 PM
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It costs < $200 to get the right equipment with the assumption you have PC or notebook available.

You just need a accurate measurement mic. Best choice found here.

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...number=390-801

You need a good sound card with phantom power, this one is popular

http://www.amazon.com/M-Audio-Mobile.../dp/B0000TP57E

Free software

REW
http://www.hometheatershack.com/roomeq/

ARTA
http://www.fesb.hr/~mateljan/arta/

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post #54 of 70 Old 06-04-2010, 12:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rinnan@online.no View Post

Penngray:
The Klipsch system might have such a bass boost feature? They do have a sub at least (http://www.klipsch.com/na-en/product...-2-1-overview/), but i still think the tower speakers should have a strong and deep sound w/o a sub.

A a power sub woofer (even a small one) can perform better then BIG tower speakers. Size of the box has little do with performance its all about the drivers. If the xmax is far better on the small sub woofer and the amp handles the subwoofer better then you will have better bass.

Your outlaw amp could have issues with lower impedances. I have not seen the measurements so I have no idea. It would be interesting to have a separate amp drive them in your house vs that outlaw choice. I would even try a low cost Behringer A-500 to test out if its the amp.

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post #55 of 70 Old 06-04-2010, 12:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rinnan@online.no View Post

Penngray:
The Klipsch system might have such a bass boost feature? They do have a sub at least (http://www.klipsch.com/na-en/product...-2-1-overview/), but i still think the tower speakers should have a strong and deep sound w/o a sub.

How do I go about measuring the sound? I wanted to do that actually, so I could have some hard evidence on what i am hearing.

I am almost within your electronics range... The MSRP on the T65 is approx $1,000, and the rotel amp was $600. The DAC was $300.


M

You do not need to justify your purchase to anyone but yourself. Go with what you can afford and sounds best to you. As you probably realize already the not so good results obtained from the gear you have and the advise in your thread not adding up. Enjoy the music!

TRUST in your EARS!
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post #56 of 70 Old 06-04-2010, 12:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Amherst View Post

You do not need to justify your purchase to anyone but yourself. Go with what you can afford and sounds best to you. As you probably realize already the not so good results obtained from the gear you have and the advise in your thread not adding up. Enjoy the music!

Greate advice! Go spend more money and not actually learn a bit of science.

My posts help him gain knowledge so he will save money and have a better system then those wasting $$$.

Very "audiophile" of you to "help" him out like this

It is not "open-minded" to reject knowledge - Bob Lee
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post #57 of 70 Old 06-04-2010, 01:09 PM
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Originally Posted by rinnan@online.no View Post

I tried both mp3 and flac and CD played from PC.

Yes, but at what resolution?

Kal Rubinson

"Music in the Round"
Senior Contributing Editor, Stereophile
http://www.stereophile.com/category/music-round

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post #58 of 70 Old 06-04-2010, 01:10 PM
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Originally Posted by penngray View Post

Greate advice! Go spend more money and not actually learn a bit of science.

My posts help him gain knowledge so he will save money and have a better system then those wasting $$$.

Very "audiophile" of you to "help" him out like this

Why are you personally calling my post out? Rolleyes...REALLY...how immature and disrespectful.

I posted nothing personal toward you. Let it go.

OP seems intelligent enough to figure things out himself.

TRUST in your EARS!
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post #59 of 70 Old 06-04-2010, 01:16 PM
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Yeah, Penn. Very "audiophile' of you!

"I've found that when you want to know the truth about someone that someone is probably the last person you should ask." - Gregory House
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post #60 of 70 Old 06-04-2010, 01:23 PM
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Amherst, Im sorry you feel disrepected. Im calling out your post and nothing to do with you. I have no clue who you are, nor do I care one bit.

Disagreements happen, no need to get so defensive (that is immature to me).

Im willing to teach him how to really know differences in audio (He has very limited education on this). You just want to post telling him "go spend more money" (ask yourself what is your goal here!).

It is not "open-minded" to reject knowledge - Bob Lee
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