The 'NEW' YAQIN MS-20L Integrated Vacuum Tube Amp Thread - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 838 Old 01-25-2011, 09:25 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by tubedoctor1971 View Post

The only thing I have now that is tube is my Bellari Vp130 phono pre but I think I just might order the Yaqin MS-12B tomorrow to replace it.First tube amp of my "own" but I grew up with my parents BIG Fisher Regent Console,
which if I remember right it had like 37 or 38 tubes in it.

That Bellari is a cool looking phono pre, very retro looking.

And that big fisher had a lot of tubes to replace, I am glad the Yaqins don't have that many, I would roll myelf into poverty! ( ;

Good luck with your decision. The Yaqins are a bargain for the money.
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post #92 of 838 Old 01-25-2011, 10:07 PM
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Yeah, it could be that you are use to high quality SS amps. Me on the other hand have only had Onkyos, but it seems the source is about 50% the sound.

Uh no... More something along the line of: Speakers: 91% Amp: 6% source 3%

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I did realize one thing....in my opinion, from what I have understood in my research one would have to spend 3-4 times this amount for SS to achieve a similar sound as tubes. There again subjective!!!

I don't understand this statement... It's the opposite. To get an amp which will measure remotely as good as a SS, you need to spend 5-10 as much on the tube amp... Amps are pretty much all about low distortion. The lower the distortion, the more accurately they amplify the signal (hence amplifier!) and the cleaner the sound of your system.

For a couple of hundred dollars, you'll easily find an SS amp which will have like <0.03% THD. http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/A500.aspx for example, 300 clean watts... for less than 300$. Now take a Conrad Johnson tube amp or whatever, you can pay 2500$ and not get anywhere near those specs... Not only will you have 10-100 times as much distortion, with the budget tube amps you'll likely get an amp with issues in the frequency response, which will be exponentially worst than SS...

Don't believe me? Head to stereophile and check out the amp reviews, and compare the figures of tube vs SS... Or here: http://www.soundstageav.com/amplifiermeasurements.html

Besides, to go back to earlier, I said something like 5% for amps, and even that... Thing is you have to get an amp which doesn't clip, if you have that, flat FR, low distortion (which most SS have), then you're in business and won't likely be able to detect differences in amps:

http://www.hometheaterfocus.com/rece...d-quality.aspx
http://translate.google.ca/translate...hl=en&ie=UTF-8 (click "pruebas cigas" for blind tests)

But, if it's distorting tubes, then I guess that's another matter But there's a definite reason transistors replaced tubes...

I'd looooove to see some blind tests done with a decent SS and something like Izotope Ozone (http://www.winamp.com/plugin/izotope-ozone/79374) vs tubes... My guess is that people wouldn't be able to tell the real tube amp vs the signal processing + SS...

For the sources, 50%, it's ridiculously overblown... Blind tests have demonstrated that people can't even tell the difference between cheapo 100$ DVD players and multi thousand esoteric sources... So even with my 3% I was extremely generous. For a more practical figure, what you pretty much hear is the room and speakers. If your amp is decent and doesn't distort/clip, it's pretty much 'inivisible', as well as the source and cables...

If you have tubes though, then you can have all kinds of distortion, sounds, or effects we could even call them... And then it can become more of a crapshoot...
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post #93 of 838 Old 01-26-2011, 11:58 AM
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Rob,
I logged about 26 hours on the GE's and they sound great. Very nice tubes!!! The Russian 6P3S-E's should be here today or tomorrow. I'll keep you posted.

Grandarf,
I was a fan of pro amps a few years ago. I had 2 Crown XLS 602D's in my main system driving Polk Audio SDA SRS 1.2TL's and thought they sounded good. Keep in mind I had nothing to compare the Crown’s to and to me they sounded good. Pro amps are very powerful, no doubt. Relatively inexpensive, too. I bought 2 of them because my speakers are rated at 50 to 1000 watts per channel and I thought they needed 1000 watts of power to sound good. A friend of mine also has Polk Audio SRS 1.2 TL’s but his are driven by a Carver TFM 35 rated at 250 wpc. His speakers sounded so much better than mine in every way. More midrange, bass, highs, everything. Well after hearing how much better his system sounded, I bought a Carver and sold the proamps. Got rid of the fan noise too.

It didn’t matter what the specs of the amps were, I was listening to the amps connected to the speakers, I wasn’t listening to the specs. The Carver TFM 35 sounded better in every way so I got rid of the proamps. Don’t ask me why the Carver sounded better than the Crown but it did without a doubt.

Last year I took a $315.00 “chance” and bought a Yaqin MC-10L integrated tube amp just to hear what all this tube fuss was about. For that kind of money why not. My intention was to pair it with a pair of Polk’s SDA 1C’s. They are a much smaller speaker compared to the Polk SDA SRS 1.2 TL’s, but a very good sounding speaker nonetheless. I had a Carver TFM 25 (225 wpc) running the 1C’s so I swapped out the Carver with the Yaqin and talk about a revelation. More bass, midrange clarity, highs. The speakers sounded better than I ever heard before. Sold the Carver TFM 25.

Could the Yaqin possibly sound good on the big boy 1.2 TL’s. Well the 1.2TL’s power ratings go from 50 to 1000 watts per channel so what the heck, let’s see how the Yaqin sounds on the 1.2TL’s. WOW. Great!!! Bass so deep and powerful, sweet midrange, highs perfect. Ok let’s turn up the volume….house shaking, chest thumping bass without any distortion. The Yaqin never ran out of steam at 116 db and that is plenty loud for me.

Enter the Yaqin MS-20L…sounds great just like the MC-10L, plus it has a remote.

So how can a 50 wpc integrated tube amp sound better than the SS gear I had in my system? I don’t have the answer, but what I do know is that it does, and that’s all that matters to me.

Note: Preamps used were a Sunfire Theater Grand II paired with Carver TFM 35's and B&K Reference 5 S2 paired with the Carver TFM 25.
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post #94 of 838 Old 01-26-2011, 01:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by ProampFan View Post

Rob,
I logged about 26 hours on the GE's and they sound great. Very nice tubes!!! The Russian 6P3S-E's should be here today or tomorrow. I'll keep you posted.

Grandarf,
I was a fan of pro amps a few years ago. I had 2 Crown XLS 602D's in my main system driving Polk Audio SDA SRS 1.2TL's and thought they sounded good. Keep in mind I had nothing to compare the Crown's to and to me they sounded good. Pro amps are very powerful, no doubt. Relatively inexpensive, too. I bought 2 of them because my speakers are rated at 50 to 1000 watts per channel and I thought they needed 1000 watts of power to sound good. A friend of mine also has Polk Audio SRS 1.2 TL's but his are driven by a Carver TFM 35 rated at 250 wpc. His speakers sounded so much better than mine in every way. More midrange, bass, highs, everything. Well after hearing how much better his system sounded, I bought a Carver and sold the proamps. Got rid of the fan noise too.

It didn't matter what the specs of the amps were, I was listening to the amps connected to the speakers, I wasn't listening to the specs. The Carver TFM 35 sounded better in every way so I got rid of the proamps. Don't ask me why the Carver sounded better than the Crown but it did without a doubt.

Last year I took a $315.00 chance and bought a Yaqin MC-10L integrated tube amp just to hear what all this tube fuss was about. For that kind of money why not. My intention was to pair it with a pair of Polk's SDA 1C's. They are a much smaller speaker compared to the Polk SDA SRS 1.2 TL's, but a very good sounding speaker nonetheless. I had a Carver TFM 25 (225 wpc) running the 1C's so I swapped out the Carver with the Yaqin and talk about a revelation. More bass, midrange clarity, highs. The speakers sounded better than I ever heard before. Sold the Carver TFM 25.

Could the Yaqin possibly sound good on the big boy 1.2 TL's. Well the 1.2TL's power ratings go from 50 to 1000 watts per channel so what the heck, let's see how the Yaqin sounds on the 1.2TL's. WOW. Great!!! Bass so deep and powerful, sweet midrange, highs perfect. Ok let's turn up the volume.house shaking, chest thumping bass without any distortion. The Yaqin never ran out of steam at 116 db and that is plenty loud for me.

Enter the Yaqin MS-20Lsounds great just like the MC-10L, plus it has a remote.

So how can a 50 wpc integrated tube amp sound better than the SS gear I had in my system? I don't have the answer, but what I do know is that it does, and that's all that matters to me.

Note: Preamps used were a Sunfire Theater Grand II paired with Carver TFM 35's and B&K Reference 5 S2 paired with the Carver TFM 25.

Great review and I am glad you are satisfied with the 5654Ws. They make a difference. There are some who would say tubes are tubes, there is no difference. I have read that as well.

I can testify differently now, and let's see you can as well, you own 3 Yaqins

Anxious to hear those Russians, but, everything I have read, they are awful at start-up, takes time. But, you are no novice with tubes!

Haven't told my wifey, but when I get the new speaks in the theater driven by the Onk and the Emotiva XPA-5, I am going to add a tube for 2 channel. Can't wait.

You have a PM.

Rob
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post #95 of 838 Old 01-26-2011, 01:33 PM
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Originally Posted by woodsart View Post

Great review and I am glad you are satisfied with the 5654Ws. They make a difference. There are some who would say tubes are tubes, there is no difference. I have read that as well.

I can testify differently now, and let's see you can as well, you own 3 Yaqins

Anxious to hear those Russians, but, everything I have read, they are awful at start-up, takes time. But, you are no novice with tubes!

Haven't told my wifey, but when I get the new speaks in the theater driven by the Onk and the Emotiva XPA-5, I am going to add a tube for 2 channel. Can't wait.

You have a PM.

Rob

Rob,
I'm really happy with the GE's, they sound great! I can't see rolling them any time soon.

The older version MC-10L that I own has Russian 6P3C-E's in it and now I'll have another quad of these to do a direct comparison between the Shuguang's EL 34B's and the Russians in the MS-20L.

PM sent.
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post #96 of 838 Old 01-26-2011, 01:39 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by ProampFan View Post

Rob,
I'm really happy with the GE's, they sound great! I can't see rolling them any time soon.

The older version MC-10L that I own has Russian 6P3C-E's in it and now I'll have another quad of these to do a direct comparison between the Shuguang's EL 34B's and the Russians in the MS-20L.

PM sent.

Oh man, you are becoming to be an excellent resource. I am sure a lot of guys here would like to hear that results.

I'll bet the GEs with the Russians will make good mates!!!!

Keep us all posted!
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post #97 of 838 Old 01-26-2011, 02:26 PM - Thread Starter
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New pic of the CAOW1s speakers!!! Hiquphon OW2 Tweeter/5.5 Seas C15RLY treated paper woofer

Playing now with the Yaqin MS-20L amp.

Size 16.5" H X 10.5" D X 8" W!
LL
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post #98 of 838 Old 01-26-2011, 02:37 PM
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Originally Posted by woodsart View Post

New pic of the CAOW1s speakers!!!

Playing now with the Yaqin MS-20L amp.

Nice!!!
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post #99 of 838 Old 01-26-2011, 02:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks, Buddy!
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post #100 of 838 Old 01-26-2011, 04:17 PM
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Originally Posted by ProampFan View Post

Grandarf,
I was a fan of pro amps a few years ago. I had 2 Crown XLS 602D's in my main system driving Polk Audio SDA SRS 1.2TL's and thought they sounded good. Keep in mind I had nothing to compare the Crown's to and to me they sounded good. Pro amps are very powerful, no doubt. Relatively inexpensive, too. I bought 2 of them because my speakers are rated at 50 to 1000 watts per channel and I thought they needed 1000 watts of power to sound good. A friend of mine also has Polk Audio SRS 1.2 TL's but his are driven by a Carver TFM 35 rated at 250 wpc. His speakers sounded so much better than mine in every way. More midrange, bass, highs, everything. Well after hearing how much better his system sounded, I bought a Carver and sold the proamps. Got rid of the fan noise too.

Would have been interesting to see measurements of those two amps to see what was wrong with the Crowns...

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Originally Posted by ProampFan View Post

It didn't matter what the specs of the amps were, I was listening to the amps connected to the speakers, I wasn't listening to the specs.

You know I haven't heard anybody yet who actually listen to an amp's specs instead of the amp connected to the speakers... But again, an amplifier simply amplifies a signal... No magic here! I guess there's two camps, those who shun science and physics, those people are sometimes known as creationists, audiophiles, astrologists, fortune tellers, etc., and then you have people who actually accept that they live in a world where most things are quantifiable, measurable and that the same 'science' which brought us teh internets, cars, planes, ipods, viagra, etc. really does work!

Quote:


The Carver TFM 35 sounded better in every way so I got rid of the proamps. Don't ask me why the Carver sounded better than the Crown but it did without a doubt.

It's absolutely possible that the Carver and the Crown sound different, but to do so, one has to do quite a botchy job for it to be audible... You're certainly not hearing a difference of 0.01% THD nor a 0.1dB deviation in the FR... It would be really interesting to measure both and see why one sounds poorly compared to the other... Amps don't do anything special, they're not supposed to act like an EQ, or add/remove anything, they should only amplify the signal...


Quote:


I swapped out the Carver with the Yaqin and talk about a revelation. More bass, midrange clarity, highs. The speakers sounded better than I ever heard before. Sold the Carver TFM 25.

So it added bass? Like if you took an EQ and added 5dB <200hz? :\\ That's not really the job of an amp... Again, to me tube amps are more an effect than an actual amplifier... Like if you stuck a distortion pedal between a guitar and an amp. Sure, the pedal will change the sound, but that's just that, it just changed the sound...

wiki on sound of ss vs tube:
Quote:


Audible differences

The sound of a tube amplifier is partly a function of the circuit topologies typically used with tubes versus the topologies typically used with transistors, as much as the gain devices themselves. Beyond circuit design, there are other differences such as the electronic characteristics of a triode and MOSFET, or a tetrode and a bipolar transistor.

Some sonic qualities are easy to explain objectively based on an analysis of the distortion characteristics of the gain device and/or the circuit topology.[citation needed] For example, the triode SE gain stage produces a stereotypical monotonically decaying harmonic distortion spectrum that is dominated by significant second-order harmonics making the sound seem "rich" or even "fat", while each higher order harmonic is smaller than the nearest lower order harmonic.[5] Some audio professionals[who?] regard the effects of the use of tubes as distortion - which can be used creatively in certain scenarios.

In tube amplifiers high frequencies have been somewhat rolled off. Historically this was often the case due to limitations in capacitor performance.[citation needed] Modern audiophile-grade tube amplifiers however, using modern and high quality capacitors can have frequency response that are essentially flat to octaves beyond the audio range: −3 dB above 85 kHz is quite common (though of arguable utility).[citation needed]

The low frequency roll-off can be explained by many tube amplifiers having high output impedance compared to transistor designs, due to the combination of both higher device impedance itself and typically reduced feedback margins (more feedback results in a lower output impedance).

A hypothetical amplifier design in two otherwise equal variants with just different amounts of feedback, might result in the higher feedback version having a "drier" mid-range (due to reduced second-order harmonics due to greater reduction of distortion) but a "tighter" bass due to lower output impedance might result.[citation needed] The speaker impedance divided by the Z out is sometimes referred to as the "damping factor"the amplifier's ability to control the mechanical movement of the speaker.

In general terms, the sound from a tube amplifier will typically have a softer attack[citation needed] and the bass frequencies will be more prominent, giving a warmer and less "harsh" sound.[citation needed] Instruments such as pianos and vocals sound softer and fatter when compared against transistor amplifiers. The reasons for these effects are not simply related to the gain device type; today an amplifier designer using either technology may make synergistic design compromise choices. Sonic differences are less stereotyped than they used to be as a result.

Again, thing is a SS amp will have much less distortion than tubes... for 300$ you get 300 watts of power, and as advertised THD should be below 0.05%, that's a tenth of half a percent of distortion... tube amps costing significantly more will still have significantly less power (50 watts?) and so will distort a lot faster than SS, and will distort a lot more; a tube using its 50 watts will have like 1% distortion or even more, while a 300 watt using 50 watts won't break a sweat and will have much less than 0.1% distortion...

So the question is, does the tube amp which distorts significantly more than SS really has better 'clarity', or is it more like the distortion is perceived as such? Again, if it's the tube distortion, could be reproduced somewhere else in the chain, like I said using DSP or something, not really necessary to have it permanently in your amplifier... Well, anyway, that's my take.


Quote:


Could the Yaqin possibly sound good on the big boy 1.2 TL's. Well the 1.2TL's power ratings go from 50 to 1000 watts per channel so what the heck, let's see how the Yaqin sounds on the 1.2TL's. WOW. Great!!! Bass so deep and powerful, sweet midrange, highs perfect. Ok let's turn up the volume.house shaking, chest thumping bass without any distortion. The Yaqin never ran out of steam at 116 db and that is plenty loud for me.

Wow that's pretty cool, no distortion! And I can do armless pushups!

Quote:


Enter the Yaqin MS-20Lsounds great just like the MC-10L, plus it has a remote.

So how can a 50 wpc integrated tube amp sound better than the SS gear I had in my system? I don't have the answer, but what I do know is that it does, and that's all that matters to me.

Well I'm quite interested in the why and so far my best explanation is that for the better or worse, people enjoy distortion!

That's why I said it would be an amazing test to compare a tube amp vs SS with a tube emulator, and see if people can really tell it apart or if they really just like the added distortion added by tube amps...

Anyhow, sorry of sidetrack. I like tube amps too, cool effect, almost purchased a couple of <1000$ tubes on a couple of occasions and really liked the sound of Conrad Johnson amps I've heard, just for practicality and all so far haven't made the jump.. Might happen one day who knows! And then I could do the test of the SS + tube emulation vs real tube amp lmao
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post #101 of 838 Old 01-26-2011, 04:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Try the 20L, so reasonably priced and with great quality and you can do the comparison!

That is why I got this particular one. It was a good price and helped me to decide whether I like tubes.

Tube amps are like speakers, one has to place in their room in their own home to really listen.

Then you can come back and tell us what you think.

Lots of happy customers with Song at Canadian HiFi....100% rating and a great guy to deal with IMHO!

Funny, though, I don't hear distortion with the 20L!

Rob
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post #102 of 838 Old 01-26-2011, 05:20 PM
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http://canadianhifi.com/ sells them? Haven't seen them on their webpage...

600$ isn't too bad but it's not peanuts... I'd prefer to see the result of the blind test SS+emu vs tube amp before I do any kind of purchasing... Besides, you have to keep replacing tubes no? They seem pretty expensive... http://canadianhifi.com/products/audio-valves?page=2 Might as well factor that into the price too... Yearly cost?

Quote:


Funny, though, I don't hear distortion!

Yeah that is funny lol

But take a look, this is a 1300$ tube amp, Cayin, well regarded brand:

http://www.stereophile.com/content/c...r-measurements

Compare to a 900$ SS NAD:

http://www.stereophile.com/content/n...r-measurements

NAD's clipping (1%) is at 190W vs the tube's 35W lol and comparing the distortion at say 20W, the tubes have significantly more... It's just fact that tube amps distort a lot more than SS, there's the way it clips which is less harsh, but thing is at same wattage, amp cost for cost, the SS isn't clipping at all and is usually quite far from clipping, which makes the SS distortion type a bit moot (since you're not supposed to clip!)
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post #103 of 838 Old 01-26-2011, 05:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grandarf View Post

http://canadianhifi.com/ sells them? Haven't seen them on their webpage...

600$ isn't too bad but it's not peanuts... I'd prefer to see the result of the blind test SS+emu vs tube amp before I do any kind of purchasing... Besides, you have to keep replacing tubes no? They seem pretty expensive... http://canadianhifi.com/products/audio-valves?page=2 Might as well factor that into the price too... Yearly cost?


Yeah that is funny lol

But take a look, this is a 1300$ tube amp, Cayin, well regarded brand:

http://www.stereophile.com/content/c...r-measurements

Compare to a 900$ SS NAD:

http://www.stereophile.com/content/n...r-measurements

NAD's clipping (1%) is at 190W vs the tube's 35W lol and comparing the distortion at say 20W, the tubes have significantly more... It's just fact that tube amps distort a lot more than SS, there's the way it clips which is less harsh, but thing is at same wattage, amp cost for cost, the SS isn't clipping at all and is usually quite far from clipping, which makes the SS distortion type a bit moot (since you're not supposed to clip!)

Gandarf, I have never been their website before. Seems to be different altogether than the Ebay store that I was talking about.

The web address offers a more elite line of amps/tubes.

And speaking of tubes. I read where there were several people who have had the 10L for 3 years with no tube issues.

I am getting some replacements for the EL34B and guarantee is no less than 5000 hours (just for fun). This is tube rolling where one can change the sound without buying a new SS amp. LOL

Tubes range from 1.00 to 1000.00 or more. Depends what you are looking for and the manufacture and whether they are new or New Old Stock (NOS). There is a huge variety of tubes and prices out there.

It is a very interesting hobby and if not careful can cost a big load of money.

Interesting results comparison with the two amps, however, this is detailed information of which I am not educated with. I have stated that I am a newby in all areas, so your knowledge supersedes mine in every respect.

I am trying to understand the tech stuff, but it is all too much to take in.

Reviews with detailed synopsis of tubes have led me to the Yaqins, therefore, I can only share those details. I did not try to enter into the higher level of amplification as it was above my budget.

I didn't have the knowledge and as you know it is a zoo, with so much to pick from and so many opinions, so I chose the one that attracted me money wise, style and performance and couldn't be happier.

Rob
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post #104 of 838 Old 01-26-2011, 06:07 PM
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I chose the one that attracted me money wise, style and performance and couldn't be happier.

That's what's important and FWIW I'd have gone with something similar had I decided to go tube path, maybe that exactly... Someone described tube sound as 'rounder', I think that's a good description from what I remember hearing in some instances, crazy how the ears/brain perceives sound... Typing the other post I noticed that Izoptope has Ozone v4, I'll definitely try it see how close it gets me to tube sound, without tubes... For now...


So ccotenj, what's the verdict for the fullrange driver speakers and tube amp?
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post #105 of 838 Old 01-26-2011, 06:38 PM
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[ 600$ isn't too bad but it's not peanuts... I'd prefer to see the result of the blind test SS+emu vs tube amp before I do any kind of purchasing... Besides, you have to keep replacing tubes no? They seem pretty expensive... http://canadianhifi.com/products/audio-valves?page=2 Might as well factor that into the price too... Yearly cost?

But take a look, this is a 1300$ tube amp, Cayin, well regarded brand:

http://www.stereophile.com/content/c...r-measurements

Compare to a 900$ SS NAD:

http://www.stereophile.com/content/n...r-measurements

NAD's clipping (1%) is at 190W vs the tube's 35W lol and comparing the distortion at say 20W, the tubes have significantly more... It's just fact that tube amps distort a lot more than SS, there's the way it clips which is less harsh, but thing is at same wattage, amp cost for cost, the SS isn't clipping at all and is usually quite far from clipping, which makes the SS distortion type a bit moot (since you're not supposed to clip!)

Again, my conclusion is that the Yaqin sounded better than the Carver, which sounded better than the Crown.

The stock preamp tubes on the Yaqin sound good, the GE preamp tubes (33 bucks for 8 tubes including shipping) and last for decades, sound better. We'll see if the Russian output tubes (35 bucks for a quad, tube life no less than 5000 hours) sound better than the stock Shuguang's. If the Russians crap out sooner, let's say after 4000hours, so what, buy another quad at 35 bucks. If the Russians don't sound good enough in the first place? so what, sell them and get your money back. Throw the original Shuguangs back in there which are a damn good sounding tube already.

Or don't spend another penny besides the original purchase price of the amp and just run the stock tubes. If folks don't like tinkering, experimenting with different tubes, etc. that's cool too. The Yaqin amp is plug and play... or play the tube rolling game if you are so inclined.

Everything matters in this hobby, and to me the room you are listening in is just as important as all the gear. Have fun and enjoy the music.

Disclaimer: Not affiliated with Canadian HiFi or any reasonable facsimile thereof.
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post #106 of 838 Old 01-26-2011, 06:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Grandarf View Post

I like tube amps too, cool effect, almost purchased a couple of <1000$ tubes on a couple of occasions and really liked the sound of Conrad Johnson amps I've heard, just for practicality and all so far haven't made the jump.. Might happen one day who knows! And then I could do the test of the SS + tube emulation vs real tube amp lmao

So after that long litany, you do like tube amps...well I'll be darned.
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DITTO!
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post #108 of 838 Old 01-26-2011, 07:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ProampFan View Post

So after that long litany, you do like tube amps...well I'll be darned.

Well like I said, Conrad Johnson sounded quite good, and had a quite pleasant effect... Now would I pay 3000$ or 5000$ or whatever it was? Naaah... But if I could buy it for 500$, I'd probably go for it for a 2nd amp.

But I'm sure it sounds quite different from a <1000$ Cayin TA-30, Prima Luna Prologue One, Yaquin, etc... And what's a bit worst with tubes, since they all sound different (different effect), without hearing first it's quite a gamble. I know already that I don't want a bass emphasis, I don't want a warm amp, I definitely do not want bass bloat, I don't want an amp which doesn't have a pretty flat FR, and that somewhat worries me... And since they're sold pretty much on in online stores and are impossible to demo...
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I hear ya... I wouldn't pay 3000 and more for an amp either. Heck I don't even wanna pay 1500 for that matter. That's why for a fairly low price of 325 bucks, I gave the Yaqin MC-10L a try. I figured if i didn't like it I could resell it quite easily and get all my money back. Turns out it sounded better than the SS gear I had so out the door went the SS. The added bonus is that I actually have less money invested in tube amplification now than I did with the SS. Wherebouts do you live? If you are fairly close to St. Louis, you're more than welcome to come over and have a listen.
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post #110 of 838 Old 01-27-2011, 10:17 AM - Thread Starter
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Proampfan, Grandarf....

Something came to me last night late and I wanted to throw this out.

I could be completely wrong, but in "my reading" and observation and of course listening.

In a broad perspective, I think coming from a uneducated electronic person, it seems to me the difference in SS and Tubes could be.....and this is just my personal thoughts in reading and listening.....

Is that SS may be a similar to a recording studio sound, cleaner and in a more controlled environment and Tube amps produce a more live performance sound in comparison.

If this is the case then one will have to decide which is more important to them............................... Studio/Stage!!!!

I hear a lot of talk in the tube arena about "live" sound.

I could be wrong altogether, but it does make some sense to me.

After all, there is a got to be lot of distortion and reverberation in a concert with all that body absorption/acoustical nightmares that could have a great effect on acoustics and create something similar.

Forgive my poor choice of words!

Just a thought, any comments?

R
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post #111 of 838 Old 01-27-2011, 05:23 PM
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Is that SS may be a similar to a recording studio sound, cleaner and in a more controlled environment and Tube amps produce a more live performance sound in comparison.

If this is the case then one will have to decide which is more important to them............................... Studio/Stage!!!!

[...]

After all, there is a got to be lot of distortion and reverberation in a concert with all that body absorption/acoustical nightmares that could have a great effect on acoustics and create something similar.

de kesser? Translation: What???

lol

I don't think what you've actually said makes sense, but I understand what you're trying to say... It's got to do with that 'roundness' that tubes add... Extremely complex I believe, pretty much psychoacoustics, which is pretty much the way your ears/brain perceive sound...

When I use DSP to simulate tubes, the first things which pops out is a deeper 3D stage seems to take place, and when going back to non-tube, the sounds in comparison is like it's flat... and your brain takes couple of seconds to re-adjust. My take on that, be it distortion, frequency response changes, etc. gives this 'illusion'. Even if it's less accurate, it might seem more realistic. And then you could argue that since it seems more realistic, it is! But... My honest take is that even if the sound sounds flatter without it, it's actually more accurate... You just hear more of the record without it, when you add the tubes, you color the sound, you change it, and listen to the altered version...

But the thing is, since it's an effect, it can be turned off at will, my amp is all cases SS. But you can't turn off the tube section of a tube amp... And given that say an artist could run the same process so that the 'tube' sound is present in the recording, what happens when you put a 'tube' sound through another layer of tubes?

I don't know, I just don't see amplifiers as EQs or signal altering effects... But I get tubes too, it's a cool effect, and can definitely add 'something' to the music... And if it feels and sounds more like live music to you, then whatever's the cause, it feels and sounds more like live music to you and that's what's important
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Quote: [But I get tubes too, it's a cool effect, and can definitely add 'something' to the music... And if it feels and sounds more like live music to you, then whatever's the cause, it feels and sounds more like live music to you and that's what's important]End quote.

And....I double that too!! ^

Yes, I got tubes and it's a cool effect and definitely add something to the music that is pleasing to my ears. That is what this thread is all about and the 20L does deliver just that!!

Have a great weekend.

Rob
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post #113 of 838 Old 01-29-2011, 09:37 AM
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Well it arrived today, in just 4 short days.All I can say is WOW.

I'm really shocked of just how good it is.

The remote is very nice also.I was thinking it was going to be a cheap plastic thing not
a 3 lb. piece of steel.

I'm really glad I went ahead and ordered the Yaqin ms-12b as well,because if it's
half as good it will smoke my bellari vp130.

Now I just need to put it in it's proper place and wipe the packing dust off.

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post #114 of 838 Old 01-29-2011, 09:39 AM
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Doc, that looks sweet!

Quote:
Originally Posted by woodsart View Post

And....I double that too!! ^

Yes, I got tubes and it's a cool effect and definitely add something to the music that is pleasing to my ears. That is what this thread is all about and the 20L does deliver just that!!

Have a great weekend.

Rob

And at an affordable price too I think tubes are great toys, I might buy one one day, but even if 500-1000$ is within easy budget I just don't feel the urge, as of yet...

And yeah if tubes get 4000 hours then damn that's pretty good, and the fact that they're not all 50$ a pop is also good... Could see me fall down the slippery slope (precipice?) of tubes and sound tweaking... But my more practical side just tells me I should order the Ozone 4 plugin for 50$ or whatever it is and play around with that lol

Ouch.. $249.99 USD for Izotope...
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tubedoctor1971:

Wow that pic looks real familiar!!!

Excellent delivery time, beats coming from China.

Yeah, the remote is solid as a rock!

And, wait and see the improvement when you get a few hours on it....can't remember, but I think it is 40+? Don't have the manual handy.

Get it broken in and then try some GE 5456Ws for an improved open sound!!!

Happy listening! I am happy listening as I type!!!

Please keep us updated!!

Thanks!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by woodsart View Post

tubedoctor1971:

Wow that pic looks real familiar!!!

Excellent delivery time, beats coming from China.

Yeah, the remote is solid as a rock!

And, wait and see the improvement when you get a few hours on it....can't remember, but I think it is 40+? Don't have the manual handy.

Get it broken in and then try some GE 5456Ws for an improved open sound!!!

Happy listening! I am happy listening as I type!!!


Yeah I went ahead put in the GE 5456Ws why waste time on the stock ones

Someone had said something about the smell, I can tell you what it is without a question,being a car nut I know the smell all to well.
It's high heat paint mixed with the power coat that is on the transformers.

P.S. Sorry about my typing I'm on my Ipad.
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Originally Posted by tubedoctor1971 View Post

Yeah I went ahead put in the GE 5456Ws why waste time on the stock ones

Someone had said something about the smell, I can tell you what it is without a question,being a car nut I know the smell all to well.
It's high heat paint mixed with the power coat that is on the transformers.

P.S. Sorry about my typing I'm on my Ipad.

Great, I had forgotten you did say that you had ordered the GEs, well, give 'em a little time and you will be happy.

The smell on mine went away quickly and it was not offensive to me.

I don't know if you read in the thread, that I was experiencing some difficulty with wiring. At that point thought it was the tubes, so I switched out the Ge and put back in the stock ones.

And the difference, wow, so flat sounding. So, I put the GEs back in and I definitely could tell a big difference. As I said earlier, it was the wiring not the 20L and I was quite relieved. Song was great in guiding me through the process.

Now when i get the Russians for the back 4, I will report on those, well ProampFan and I will as we will be comparing our results.

Rob
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Doc, that looks sweet!



And at an affordable price too I think tubes are great toys, I might buy one one day, but even if 500-1000$ is within easy budget I just don't feel the urge, as of yet...

And yeah if tubes get 4000 hours then damn that's pretty good, and the fact that they're not all 50$ a pop is also good... Could see me fall down the slippery slope (precipice?) of tubes and sound tweaking... But my more practical side just tells me I should order the Ozone 4 plugin for 50$ or whatever it is and play around with that lol

Ouch.. $249.99 USD for Izotope...
You're getting closer to the edge..........LOL.........The stock Shuguang EL-34B's that are stock to this amp are really quite good. Unless the Russian 6P3C-E's are markedly better, I'll stay with the Shuguangs. I would defiinitely swap in the GE 5654's without a doubt.
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Originally Posted by tubedoctor1971 View Post
Well it arrived today, in just 4 short days.All I can say is WOW.

I'm really shocked of just how good it is.

The remote is very nice also.I was thinking it was going to be a cheap plastic thing not
a 3 lb. piece of steel.

I'm really glad I went ahead and ordered the Yaqin ms-12b as well,because if it's
half as good it will smoke my bellari vp130.

Now I just need to put it in it's proper place and wipe the packing dust off.

Congrats. Glad to hear you are happy with the amp!!!

I recognized those GE tubes right away!!! Good on you for going with them. Thanks again to Rob (woodsart) for suggesting them!!!!

Thanks for the info on the source of the smell...I had a feeling it had something to do with the paint. BTW, the smell is completely gone since last week.

Enjoy!
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post #120 of 838 Old 01-29-2011, 12:33 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks, ProampFan, just did a lot of reading and also Song implied with the tube suggestions in the specs that it would not be a bad idea and that he seemed to know the 6J1s weren't that great to begin with.

Guys, have a great weekend!

And, of course happy listening!!!

Rob
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