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post #1 of 1121 Old 12-21-2010, 02:06 AM - Thread Starter
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Hi Guys,

I have these "external" DACs:

Musical Fidelity V-Dac | Chip: Not Sure
Emotiva XDA-1 | Chip: Analog Devices AD1955 DAC

And these "internal" DACs:

Emotiva ERC-1 Reference CD-Player | Chip: Analog Devices 1955 DAC
Oppo BDP-95 | Chip: SABRE32 Reference ES9018 from ESS Technology

I don't own the Oppo yet, but will as soon as it comes out.

Question is:
Do I use one of my external DACs for all my digital sources, or do I instead stick to for instance the internal SABRE32 in the case of the BDP. Maybe this chip is better than the chip in the external DACs.

Moreover, how does the above compare to the Benchmark DACs?

I wish these things were better documented / discussed.

What do you guys think? Which of the above DACs would you use?


Best regards,

Magnus
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post #2 of 1121 Old 12-21-2010, 08:09 AM
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I would not worry about the relative quality of those DACs. They are all much better than your ears. The Benchmark may well be the best of the bunch on paper, but that doesn't mean you'd be able to tell it apart from any of the others in a fair test.

Use whichever DAC(s) make sense from a convenience/flexibility standpoint.

If you can't explain how it works, you can't say it doesn't.—The High-End Creed

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post #3 of 1121 Old 12-21-2010, 08:19 AM
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If you can tell the difference between one DAC and another, then one is broken. Use whatever is easier.

J Dunlavy:.. if you stop to think about it, no loudspeaker can sound more accurate than it measures ...
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post #4 of 1121 Old 12-21-2010, 08:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by htcritic View Post

If you can tell the difference between one DAC and another, then one is broken. Use whatever is easier.

Your opinion.
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post #5 of 1121 Old 12-21-2010, 08:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rinnan@online.no View Post

Hi Guys,

I have these "external" DACs:

Musical Fidelity V-Dac | Chip: Not Sure
Emotiva XDA-1 | Chip: Analog Devices AD1955 DAC

And these "internal" DACs:

Emotiva ERC-1 Reference CD-Player | Chip: Analog Devices 1955 DAC
Oppo BDP-95 | Chip: SABRE32 Reference ES9018 from ESS Technology

I don't own the Oppo yet, but will as soon as it comes out.

Question is:
Do I use one of my external DACs for all my digital sources, or do I instead stick to for instance the internal SABRE32 in the case of the BDP. Maybe this chip is better than the chip in the external DACs.

Moreover, how does the above compare to the Benchmark DACs?

I wish these things were better documented / discussed.

What do you guys think? Which of the above DACs would you use?


Best regards,

Magnus

Magnus, have you been able to discern differences in the sound of these dacs on any noticeable basis in your present system?
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post #6 of 1121 Old 12-21-2010, 12:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by par4 View Post

Your opinion.

It's fact. Prove otherwise and offer statistical data to support your position. And I won't go arouing this maypole anymore. To the OP read par4's posts and you will see what his contributions are to these types of posts.

J Dunlavy:.. if you stop to think about it, no loudspeaker can sound more accurate than it measures ...
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post #7 of 1121 Old 12-21-2010, 02:33 PM
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Originally Posted by htcritic View Post

It's fact. Prove otherwise and offer statistical data to support your position. And I won't go arouing this maypole anymore. To the OP read par4's posts and you will see what his contributions are to these types of posts.

In your opinion, it's fact.
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post #8 of 1121 Old 12-21-2010, 02:38 PM
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Are there any double blinded randomized studies comparing various DACs in DAC "shoot outs"?
Obviously level matched with high quality gear and comparing various sources.
I've never seen a link to this type of information.
I have seen some non-blinded shootouts that are interesting (eg, Emotiva forum on XDA-1).

Mike
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post #9 of 1121 Old 12-21-2010, 02:46 PM
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I've never seen a link to this type of information.

So where have you been?

Here are a few articles published over the years:

Masters, Ian G. and Clark, D. L., "Do All CD Players Sound the Same?", Stereo Review, pp.50-57 (January 1986)

Pohlmann, Ken C., "6 Top CD Players: Can You Hear the Difference?", Stereo Review, pp.76-84 (December 1988)

Pohlmann, Ken C., "The New CD Players, Can You Hear the Difference?", Stereo Review, pp.60-67 (October 1990)

CD Player Comparison, The Sensible Sound, # 75, Jun/Jul 1999.

CD Player Comparison, The Sensible Sound, # 74, Apr/May 1999.

Here's a group in Spain that's done numerous DBTs of CD players and DACs. You'll have to slog through the bablefish translation, unless you read Spanish.

And here's a leading college textbook in psychoacoustics and what it has to say about DAC sound:

Moore, BCJ. An Introduction to the Psychology of Hearing, Fourth Edition. San Diego: Academic Press, 1997.

Quote:
CD and DAT players generally have a specification which is far better than that of other components in a hi-fi system, especially cassette decks and loudspeakers. Essentially, the output signal which they provide is indistinguishable from that which would be obtained from the master tape produced by the recording studio (studio recordings are now usually digital recordings). Thus, provided a CD or DAT player is working according to specification, it will produce no noticeable degradation in sound quality. It follows from this that most CD players and DAT players sound the same.


If you can't explain how it works, you can't say it doesn't.—The High-End Creed

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post #10 of 1121 Old 12-21-2010, 02:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcnarus View Post

So where have you been?

Here are a few articles published over the years:

Masters, Ian G. and Clark, D. L., "Do All CD Players Sound the Same?", Stereo Review, pp.50-57 (January 1986)

Pohlmann, Ken C., "6 Top CD Players: Can You Hear the Difference?", Stereo Review, pp.76-84 (December 1988)

Pohlmann, Ken C., "The New CD Players, Can You Hear the Difference?", Stereo Review, pp.60-67 (October 1990)

CD Player Comparison, The Sensible Sound, # 75, Jun/Jul 1999.

CD Player Comparison, The Sensible Sound, # 74, Apr/May 1999.

Here's a group in Spain that's done numerous DBTs of CD players and DACs. You'll have to slog through the bablefish translation, unless you read Spanish.

And here's a leading college textbook in psychoacoustics and what it has to say about DAC sound:

Moore, BCJ. An Introduction to the Psychology of Hearing, Fourth Edition. San Diego: Academic Press, 1997.

Thanks.

Mike
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post #11 of 1121 Old 12-21-2010, 03:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcnarus View Post

So where have you been?

Here are a few articles published over the years:

Masters, Ian G. and Clark, D. L., "Do All CD Players Sound the Same?", Stereo Review, pp.50-57 (January 1986)

Pohlmann, Ken C., "6 Top CD Players: Can You Hear the Difference?", Stereo Review, pp.76-84 (December 1988)

Pohlmann, Ken C., "The New CD Players, Can You Hear the Difference?", Stereo Review, pp.60-67 (October 1990)

CD Player Comparison, The Sensible Sound, # 75, Jun/Jul 1999.

CD Player Comparison, The Sensible Sound, # 74, Apr/May 1999.

Here's a group in Spain that's done numerous DBTs of CD players and DACs. You'll have to slog through the bablefish translation, unless you read Spanish.

And here's a leading college textbook in psychoacoustics and what it has to say about DAC sound:

Moore, BCJ. An Introduction to the Psychology of Hearing, Fourth Edition. San Diego: Academic Press, 1997.

And all of that is predicated on work done many years earlier with respect to being able to hear differences in different frequency regions as for example the work of Florian (just noticeable differences). That doesn't mean DAC's can't sound different even after level matching but if they do, there's usually a very good and rational reason why that's the case.

"I've found that when you want to know the truth about someone that someone is probably the last person you should ask." - Gregory House
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post #12 of 1121 Old 12-21-2010, 08:14 PM
 
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You have to do a controlled listening test yourself, and determine whether you can hear differences, and if you do, what you prefer.

It is beyond doubt that there is clearly apparent audible difference in my system between my Denon 5308ci receiver and my Musical Fidelity A3.5 CDP. I have done a bevy of tests, and it is unequivocal. That being said, DAC differences when present are not very significant.

But to test properly you have to be blinded, and volume must be controlled for, otherwise your listening experience is not valid.
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post #13 of 1121 Old 12-22-2010, 12:01 AM - Thread Starter
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There has to be significant differences between one of the external DACs vs using just the internal DAC in the CD-Player / BR-Player, as Emotiva for instance recommended me to without doubt connect the ERC-1 to the XDA-1, over using just the ERC-1's DAC. I think the tech.rep. said something like "you want to take advantage of the analog output stage in the XDA-1" etc. Don't remember exactly. This was after I had purchased both, so it was not in their interest to recommend me to use it, unless it improves the ERC-1.

In other words, I think there can be definite advantages in using an external DAC, to using just the CD-Player/BR-Player itself. But as a science grad, I like to understand the scientific reasons for improved SQ.

Can anyone with a certain level of electro/audio engineering understanding, explain why one of these external DACs might be better than an internal one. What is the analog output stage?

Take for instance the extreme case, for the purpose of the explanation:

ERC-1 --> Benchmark DAC1 --> Analog Pre-Amp (using digital out)
vs.
ERC-1 --> Analog Pre-Amp (using XLR Balanced cables)


Thanks a a lot.


Best,

M
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post #14 of 1121 Old 12-22-2010, 06:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rinnan@online.no View Post

There has to be significant differences between one of the external DACs vs using just the internal DAC in the CD-Player / BR-Player, as Emotiva for instance recommended me to without doubt connect the ERC-1 to the XDA-1, over using just the ERC-1's DAC. I think the tech.rep. said something like "you want to take advantage of the analog output stage in the XDA-1" etc. Don't remember exactly. This was after I had purchased both, so it was not in their interest to recommend me to use it, unless it improves the ERC-1.

Right, it's never in the best interest of a manufacturer to tell you that buying more pieces is better. Are you for real?
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post #15 of 1121 Old 12-22-2010, 07:41 AM
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Also, to appreciate a significant difference, the downstream parts of the chain (speakers, amplification, interconnects) have to be of sufficient quality to allow you to hear it.

To rephrase: how good does your stereo need to be to detect a difference using the erc1 's analogue outs vs the XDA1, given that they use the same DAC and only the op amps are difference? How good do your ears need to be? I doubt that using the XDA1 will add much; if you are using it for other digital inputs as well, it will be useful, but otherwise I'm not sure if I would keep it.
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post #16 of 1121 Old 12-22-2010, 07:52 AM
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...That doesn't mean DAC's can't sound different even after level matching but if they do, there's usually a very good and rational reason why that's the case.

Yeah. It means one's broken or poorly engineered.

J Dunlavy:.. if you stop to think about it, no loudspeaker can sound more accurate than it measures ...
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post #17 of 1121 Old 12-22-2010, 08:01 AM
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Right, it's never in the best interest of a manufacturer to tell you that buying more pieces is better. Are you for real?

As he quite clearly stated, he already OWNS both of the units, so the question of whether or not he was going to purchase the components is moot.
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post #18 of 1121 Old 12-22-2010, 08:02 AM
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Yeah. It means one's broken or poorly engineered.

In your opinion.
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post #19 of 1121 Old 12-22-2010, 08:23 AM
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How good do your ears need to be?

Better than anyone else's, by a huge margin.

If you can't explain how it works, you can't say it doesn't.—The High-End Creed

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post #20 of 1121 Old 12-22-2010, 01:53 PM
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So I'm reading the latest issue of Stereophile and come across two DAC reviews that run totally contrary to the statements concerning DAC 'sound' made here.

Some excerpts:
(the DCS Debussy by Michael Fremer p.91) "There certainly are big audible differences among various DACs...I heard minimal differences (between the $10,999 USD DCS). Given the darTZeel's price of $29,500, that's what you should expect...The Debussy's digital sound mirrors my general preferences for analog playback: fast, taut, extended and dynamic..."

From the Esoteric D-07 article by John Atkinson p. 101: "It presents a significantly cleaner, more sophisticated sound than the entry-level DACs...While the D-07 doesn't quite scale the heights of the best D/A processors, it does get close for significantly less money..."

Are these guys just doing marketing for these companies to hawk their gear and sell their magazine? What I've read here flies directly in the face of the logic at Stereophile.
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post #21 of 1121 Old 12-22-2010, 02:16 PM
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Are these guys just doing marketing for these companies to hawk their gear and sell their magazine? What I've read here flies directly in the face of the logic at Stereophile.

I think you've pretty much answered your own question here. Not only are they selling magazines, but more importantly for the writers, they are selling advertising space for their magazines. It's job security in a dying business model. A negative review from a high-end product manufacturer might not sit too well with that manufacturer when it comes time to renew their ad. It's a very safe bet that bias might play just a teeny tiny role in those reviews of high-end gear.
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post #22 of 1121 Old 12-22-2010, 02:19 PM
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Are these guys just doing marketing for these companies to hawk their gear and sell their magazine?

Nailed it on your first try!

Quote:


What I've read here flies directly in the face of the logic at Stereophile.

Here's the real logic of Stereophile: Stereophile makes money by selling advertising. Advertisers want to reach consumers likely to spend significant amounts of money on audio. So Stereophile produces editorial content likely to attract that kind of consumer—the kind of person who's willing to believe that 1) there are audible differences between DACs, and 2) spending more on a DAC can get you audibly better performance. As long as Stereophile can keep finding enough of those consumers, it stays in business, whether or not a word of what it prints is true.

And as long as the human mind is susceptible to things like expectation bias, there will be plenty of those consumers.

If you can't explain how it works, you can't say it doesn't.—The High-End Creed

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post #23 of 1121 Old 12-22-2010, 02:21 PM
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As he quite clearly stated, he already OWNS both of the units, so the question of whether or not he was going to purchase the components is moot.

Even with Emotiva's 30 day return policy? I don't think so.
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post #24 of 1121 Old 12-22-2010, 02:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by d_m1010 View Post

Some excerpts:
(the DCS Debussy by Michael Fremer p.91)....

Isn't Micheal Fremer the guy that agreed to take James Randi's million dollar challenge to differentiate magic cables, and then backed out? Not real credible.
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post #25 of 1121 Old 12-22-2010, 02:39 PM
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Isn't Micheal Fremer the guy that agreed to take James Randi's million dollar challenge to differentiate magic cables, and then backed out? Not real credible.

Really? Hadn't heard that. That definitely changes my perspective on the guy.
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post #26 of 1121 Old 12-22-2010, 03:32 PM
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Really? Hadn't heard that. That definitely changes my perspective on the guy.

Well, the cable challenge was kind of a mess on both sides, though I would agree that Fremer was a bit of a weenie about the whole thing.

If you really want to lose respect for the guy (and you should!), try this on: He once reviewed a $175,000 amp (that's for one channel, BTW) and declared it the closest thing to live music he'd ever heard. S-pile editor John Atkinson then measured the amp, and it clipped at 2 watts. That is not a misprint.

Kinda makes ya wonder what sorts of concerts he goes to.

If you can't explain how it works, you can't say it doesn't.—The High-End Creed

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post #27 of 1121 Old 12-22-2010, 03:33 PM
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^^^

google "michael fremer james randi pear"... you'll find the whole story there... including fremer's crybaby "waa waa waa" editorial piece in stereophile, which the entire stereophile organization should be ashamed of...

- chris

 

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post #28 of 1121 Old 12-22-2010, 04:11 PM
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$175,000 amp and it clipped at 2 watts. That is not a misprint.

All I can say is Wow. This site has definitely revealed the true Oz behind the curtain for me. The 'audiophile mystique' is quickly dying within. I'll be chucking my $1K Cardas speaker wire (I was once the gullible 'believer' before this site).
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post #29 of 1121 Old 12-22-2010, 04:24 PM
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All I can say is Wow. This site has definitely revealed the true Oz behind the curtain for me. The 'audiophile mystique' is quickly dying within. I'll be chucking my $1K Cardas speaker wire (I was once the gullible 'believer' before this site).

Don't throw that Cardas stuff away, I need some speaker cables.

Just because there is a knob doesn't mean you should turn it.
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post #30 of 1121 Old 12-22-2010, 04:28 PM
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Don't throw that Cardas stuff away, I need some speaker cables.

lol, I have the ridiculous matching Cardas ICs you can have as well. They sound just as good as my Emotiva and BJ ICs.
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