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post #61 of 146 Old 02-03-2011, 03:30 PM
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But don't you think we're all referring to the same thing, when I say they can sound different.

No, you're saying DACs sound different because you've drunk the audiophile Kool-Aid. We're saying that a few DACs sound different because they are mis-designed. See the difference?

You're also telling people that the best way to settle this question is for them to go out an listen to some DACs in a totally uncontrolled, random way. That's wrong, too, but I don't ever expect you to understand why.

If you can't explain how it works, you can't say it doesn't.—The High-End Creed

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post #62 of 146 Old 02-03-2011, 03:30 PM
 
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Ya think?

Just giving the benefit of the doubt. He's still a person ya know... Or at least as far as I know.
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post #63 of 146 Old 02-03-2011, 03:34 PM
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You notice that Penn isn't in these much more. I think I now know why.

Why? I'm sure he'd like to know.
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post #64 of 146 Old 02-03-2011, 03:34 PM
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Just giving the benefit of the doubt. He's still a person ya know... Or at least as far as I know.

Still no amp geek-y. Still no vast experiences of all your ABX testing.

You guys are bigger frauds than those a**holes that sell the audiophile crystals. Why don't you do something? Cut-and-paste kings. Tell me about your kick-a** gear; the pieces that are so good, because you have all the answers on how to get bang-for-the-buck...and figure out which gear to pick, the "right" way.

One guy said he had a QSC. I at least give him credit. The rest of you? What...if you can't cut-and-paste the answer, you can't even say what gear you listen to?

CD

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post #65 of 146 Old 02-03-2011, 03:35 PM
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Why? I'm sure he'd like to know.

He knows.

CD

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post #66 of 146 Old 02-03-2011, 03:36 PM
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Anyone tell me about your experiences with ABX and DBT?

Nope, never done one, have no interest in ever doing one. There are been decades of research into the audibility of various acoustical parameters. I am quite happy to reference those long standing studies when determining audible characteristics or designing audio related electronics.

I've posted this before i'm sure you will ignore it, but here ya go:

Acoustical Society of America
Audio Engineering Society
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post #67 of 146 Old 02-03-2011, 03:36 PM
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He knows.

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You said you thought you knew. Tell us.
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post #68 of 146 Old 02-03-2011, 03:39 PM
 
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What's my problem with reading comprehension geek?

What about the second part? You know, the willful thing. Why did you not respond to it? Could it be that I hit the nail right on the head?
mcnarus, I think we've got something here.
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post #69 of 146 Old 02-03-2011, 03:43 PM
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Originally Posted by xianthax View Post

Nope, never done one, have no interest in ever doing one. There are been decades of research into the audibility of various acoustical parameters. I am quite happy to reference those long standing studies when determining audible characteristics or designing audio related electronics.

I've posted this before i'm sure you will ignore it, but here ya go:

Acoustical Society of America
Audio Engineering Society

Well...out it comes. At least you're honest X. AFAIC, that puts you a notch above your fellow objectivists.

Not to gloat...because again, I know you don't give two rats a**...but I can accept a man who at least comes clean, and says this is what I believe and defends it.

I believe in listening; and at least I'm participating in the thing I believe in. I have no truck for those who cast derision, by simply sitting back and standing on the work of others. To me, I don't see how quoting me someone's study...when you admit to not testing for yourself...is much different than my quoting you someone from a Stereophile review.

It's all just words jack. I've said before; I am starting to suspect...and suspicion getting stronger...that some of you, don't even have a stereo.

CD

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post #70 of 146 Old 02-03-2011, 03:46 PM
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Originally Posted by geekhd View Post

What about the second part? You know, the willful thing. Why did you not respond to it? Could it be that I hit the nail right on the head?
mcnarus, I think we've got something here.

Oh, you're a tag-team, are ya? Confirms another suspicion I had...but I best leave that one alone, as I don't think the mods would take too kindly to it.

So I'm sorry no-amp geek-y; what insightful thing of yours did I dodge? I don't see you asking any questions. I don't really think I should answer yours, until you answer at least one of mine; the simplest one...what amp do you own? But I will anyway.

So what can I do for you my man?

CD

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post #71 of 146 Old 02-03-2011, 03:53 PM
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Originally Posted by CDLehner View Post

You notice that Penn isn't in these much more. I think I now know why.

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Why? I'm sure he'd like to know.

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He knows.CD

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You said you thought you knew. Tell us.

Well?
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post #72 of 146 Old 02-03-2011, 04:00 PM
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Originally Posted by David James View Post

Well?

OK, well...even you quoted me saying "I think I know". My experiences with Penn are that he's passionate, and believes a lot of the same things some of you do; but frankly, he's more measured...and balanced...and probably quite a bit smarter.

Plus...unlike, admittedly...a lot of you (and I suspect more than most of you are even willing to admit)...he actually does test; he doesn't just post studies of others work, and say "see...this is true". So...my thinking is...he tires of your kind's unsubstantiated arguments.

Or he could just be busy...lol; but since you found it so important to press me for an answer, there you go. Proves? After all...no ABX involved.

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post #73 of 146 Old 02-03-2011, 04:03 PM
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Originally Posted by CDLehner View Post

OK, well...even you quoted me saying "I think I know". My experiences with Penn are that he's passionate, and believes a lot of the same things some of you do; but frankly, he's more measured...and balanced...and probably quite a bit smarter.

Plus...unlike, admittedly...a lot of you (and I suspect more than most of you is even willing to admit)...he actually does test; he doesn't just post studies of others work, and say "see...this is true". So...my thinking is...he tires of your kind's unsubstantiated arguments.

Or he could just be busy...lol; but since you found it so important to press me for an answer, there you go. Proves? After all...no ABX involved.

CD

Thanks for finally answering the question. You could have done that in the very first post, but whatever.
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post #74 of 146 Old 02-03-2011, 04:07 PM
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Originally Posted by CDLehner View Post

Well...out it comes. At least you're honest X. AFAIC, that puts you a notch above your fellow objectivists.

Not to gloat...because again, I know you don't give two rats a**...but I can accept a man who at least comes clean, and says this is what I believe and defends it.

I believe in listening; and at least I'm participating in the thing I believe in. I have no truck for those who cast derision, by simply sitting back and standing on the work of others. To me, I don't see how quoting me someone's study...when you admit to not testing for yourself...is much different than my quoting you someone from a Stereophile review.

It's all just words jack. I've said before; I am starting to suspect...and suspicion getting stronger...that some of you, don't even have a stereo.

CD

What I am coming clean about? I've never advocated people waste their time doing DBT on audio products.

Do you even have perspective on what you are saying?

Sorry I'm not egotistical enough to think that my "magic ears" can hear things that many people spent their entire lives researching to determine are inaudible.

Also this is ridiculous, yes stereophile is on the same level as a peer reviewed scientific journal.

If you need me i'll be personally repeating every experiment that was required to produce the computer i'm typing on...see ya in 15 years.
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post #75 of 146 Old 02-03-2011, 04:27 PM
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..., you can't even say what gear you listen to?

CD

How is that relevant to the testable claims you make or what you think you can hear? Don't need a single audio gear to post here, right?
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post #76 of 146 Old 02-03-2011, 04:39 PM
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Thanks for finally answering the question. You could have done that in the very first post, but whatever.

Uh, well...I just assumed it was meant rhetorically. I don't really know what Penn is up to.

CD

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post #77 of 146 Old 02-03-2011, 04:46 PM
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Originally Posted by CDLehner View Post

OK, well...even you quoted me saying "I think I know". My experiences with Penn are that he's passionate, and believes a lot of the same things some of you do; but frankly, he's more measured...and balanced...and probably quite a bit smarter.

Plus...unlike, admittedly...a lot of you (and I suspect more than most of you is even willing to admit)...he actually does test; he doesn't just post studies of others work, and say "see...this is true". So...my thinking is...he tires of your kind's unsubstantiated arguments.

Or he could just be busy...lol; but since you found it so important to press me for an answer, there you go. Proves? After all...no ABX involved.

CD

I'm going to go ahead and harp on this attitude a bit more...

What i find hilarious in that CD and his self identified "subjectivist" group like to make claim that the "objectivist" group (in his words) are the ones being cocky know it alls or whatever.

I wonder, have you ever stopped and taken an outside perspective on what that means?

You think your thumbing your nose at a few people on an internet forum. Your not, you are literally telling thousands of people who've committed tens of thousands of man-hours and have tested tens or hundreds of thousands of people that they have no idea what they are talking about.

Your saying that your personal opinion is more important than decades of research into the topic involving all these people and all this work.

Yet you produce nothing but your opinion and produce no tangible deliverables to support it. Thats about as cocky and insulting as you can be.

So as a question, how exactly do you reconcile that and come up with the conclusion that we are the ones who are full of it? That we are the ones being cocky know it alls? Really I want to know.

From where i'm sitting, you've determined that you know better than thousands of specialists in the field, that you can perform better than tens or hundreds of thousands of test subjects, that all the lives spent researching this topic were wasted.

Thats a very strong and insulting claim to make if your have no intention of backing it up.
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post #78 of 146 Old 02-03-2011, 04:47 PM
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Originally Posted by xianthax View Post

What I am coming clean about? I've never advocated people waste their time doing DBT on audio products.

Do you even have perspective on what you are saying?

Sorry I'm not egotistical enough to think that my "magic ears" can hear things that many people spent their entire lives researching to determine are inaudible.

Also this is ridiculous, yes stereophile is on the same level as a peer reviewed scientific journal.

If you need me i'll be personally repeating every experiment that was required to produce the computer i'm typing on...see ya in 15 years.

That's a fallacy of extremes; no one said anything ridiculous like reproduce 15 years worth of experiments. But I have to be honest; I find it pretty surprising you admit you've never done a single one. Not for science, not even for fun?

Your colleagues there...and trust me, if I'm mistakingly lumping you into that group, say so, and correct me; I apologize, because I don't blame you for not wanting to be associated. But you colleagues there ride me like Secretariat because I've never done an ABX/DBT; and I don't even play for that team. So...if you were on that side of the argument...it would just strike me as weird that you and I would have done exactly the same amount of testing.

CD

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post #79 of 146 Old 02-03-2011, 04:50 PM
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How is that relevant to the testable claims you make or what you think you can hear? Don't need a single audio gear to post here, right?

I've read this sentence 3 times, and can't make heads nor tales or it. Must be that damn reading comprehension thing. Care to try again, or is this like ducking a question?

CD

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post #80 of 146 Old 02-03-2011, 04:58 PM
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it would just strike me as weird that you and I would have done exactly the same amount of testing.

I'm not an acoustical engineer, i'm an electrical engineer, I design electronics (schematics, PCB layout, some firmware work).

I haven't designed an audio product in like 2 years but I have designed several in the past, most were for commercial use, some were for spacial acoustical modeling systems. Most recently (as in the last year) was a product that had most of the aspects of audio design (FMCW radar with a baseband of 0-40khz) but that was far and away more sensitive than anything that needs to be worried about for audio design.

I don't understand what is surprising? I don't assume that all the people that have does thousand and thousands of hours of research into the acoustical capabilities of the human ear are morons. I've never had a problem following the existing research and delivering a product that met the needs.
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post #81 of 146 Old 02-03-2011, 05:00 PM
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I'm going to go ahead and harp on this attitude a bit more...

What i find hilarious in that CD and his self identified "subjectivist" group like to make claim that the "objectivist" group (in his words) are the ones being cocky know it alls or whatever.

I wonder, have you ever stopped and taken an outside perspective on what that means?

You think your thumbing your nose at a few people on an internet forum. Your not, you are literally telling thousands of people who've committed tens of thousands of man-hours and have tested tens or hundreds of thousands of people that they have no idea what they are talking about.

Your saying that your personal opinion is more important than decades of research into the topic involving all these people and all this work.

Yet you produce nothing but your opinion and produce no tangible deliverables to support it. Thats about as cocky and insulting as you can be.

So as a question, how exactly do you reconcile that and come up with the conclusion that we are the ones who are full of it? That we are the ones being cocky know it alls? Really I want to know.

From where i'm sitting, you've determined that you know better than thousands of specialists in the field, that you can perform better than tens or hundreds of thousands of test subjects, that all the lives spent researching this topic were wasted.

Thats a very strong and insulting claim to make if your have no intention of backing it up.

This is much too logical and reasoned to illicit any response from CD.

J Dunlavy:.. if you stop to think about it, no loudspeaker can sound more accurate than it measures ...
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post #82 of 146 Old 02-03-2011, 05:03 PM
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Originally Posted by xianthax View Post

I'm going to go ahead and harp on this attitude a bit more...

What i find hilarious in that CD and his self identified "subjectivist" group like to make claim that the "objectivist" group (in his words) are the ones being cocky know it alls or whatever.

I wonder, have you ever stopped and taken an outside perspective on what that means?

You think your thumbing your nose at a few people on an internet forum. Your not, you are literally telling thousands of people who've committed tens of thousands of man-hours and have tested tens or hundreds of thousands of people that they have no idea what they are talking about.

Your saying that your personal opinion is more important than decades of research into the topic involving all these people and all this work.

Yet you produce nothing but your opinion and produce no tangible deliverables to support it. Thats about as cocky and insulting as you can be.

So as a question, how exactly do you reconcile that and come up with the conclusion that we are the ones who are full of it? That we are the ones being cocky know it alls? Really I want to know.

From where i'm sitting, you've determined that you know better than thousands of specialists in the field, that you can perform better than tens or hundreds of thousands of test subjects, that all the lives spent researching this topic were wasted.

Thats a very strong and insulting claim to make if your have no intention of backing it up.

Nope; see, this is where you guys are exactly wrong...and usually when the conversations start coming toward an end. I have LOTS of respect for people who build the gear that I can only pay to buy...whichever side of the argument they may be on. And I can respect the "scientists" and "objectivists" who actually have gear, and listen...and take a "scientific" approach to the hobby, or discipline; whatever they choose to call it.

I'm not putting them down...and I don't really see them putting me down either. I suspect they're too busy working. No...what I object to are blow-hard, cut-and-paste kings; who don't have any more first-hand experience that things "sound the same", than I have that things "sound different". In other words, squadoosh!

Plus...you don't ever catch me saying you guys are "wrong" for thinking the way you do. See, the guys who actually have their hands in this; I may not agree with their "science", but I can respect their participation. You guys who want to tell me I'm "wrong"...I listen the "wrong" way...lol; all you have your hands in are your keyboards and your...

And yes; as I've said before...it's called AVS, and the S stands for Science. But the A stands for Audio, and the V stands for Video; so yes, you have to have gear for your opinion or "science" to mean a damn thing to me. And you have to be willing to say "I stand by this"; otherwise, talk about an opinion that means nothing.

CD

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post #83 of 146 Old 02-03-2011, 05:05 PM
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This is much too logical and reasoned to illicit any response from CD.

HT, take your foot out of your mouth. I was typing a response...while you were eeking out a snippet. Well-played; you're some kind of genius for stringing together 10 words.

CD

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post #84 of 146 Old 02-03-2011, 05:17 PM
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Nope; see, this is where you guys are exactly wrong...and usually when the conversations start coming toward an end. I have LOTS of respect for people who build the gear that I can only pay to buy...whichever side of the argument they may be on. And I can respect the "scientists" and "objectivists" who actually have gear, and listen...and take a "scientific" approach to the hobby, or discipline; whatever they choose to call it.

I'm not putting them down...and I don't really see them putting me down either. I suspect they're too busy working. No...what I object to are blow-hard, cut-and-paste kings; who don't have any more first-hand experience that things "sound the same", than I have that things "sound different". In other words, squadoosh!

Plus...you don't ever catch me saying you guys are "wrong" for thinking the way you do. See, the guys who actually have their hands in this; I may not agree with their "science", but I can respect their participation. You guys who want to tell me I'm "wrong"...I listen the "wrong" way...lol; all you have your hands in are your keyboards and your...

And yes; as I've said before...it's called AVS, and the S stands for Science. But the A stands for Audio, and the V stands for Video; so yes, you have to have gear for your opinion or "science" to mean a damn thing to me. And you have to be willing to say "I stand by this"; otherwise, talk about an opinion that means nothing.

CD

How am I wrong?

Can you produce a scientific study that supports your position on any topic you love you argue about? You've been asked a bunch of times, you've produced nothing. There are dozens of studies showing the audibility of various parameters, yet you continue to argue that X sounds different than Y even when their performance variation is below the known audible threshold.

You think that scientific studies involve listening tests of one commercial product vs another and not a test of a particular aspect of audio performance? (group delay, frequency response, phase shift, etc)

All i get from your response is that you have no idea how science approaches these issues and have no interest in learning. Thus you will continue on the same rampage.
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post #85 of 146 Old 02-03-2011, 05:31 PM
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How am I wrong?

Can you produce a scientific study that supports your position on any topic you love you argue about? You've been asked a bunch of times, you've produced nothing. There are dozens of studies showing the audibility of various parameters, yet you continue to argue that X sounds different than Y even when their performance variation is below the known audible threshold.

You think that scientific studies involve listening tests of one commercial product vs another and not a test of a particular aspect of audio performance? (group delay, frequency response, phase shift, etc)

All i get from your response is that you have no idea how science approaches these issues and have no interest in learning. Thus you will continue on the same rampage.

You asserted that...here, before no-amp geek-y rips me for misquoting a word or something...

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Originally Posted by xianthax View Post

You think your thumbing your nose at a few people on an internet forum. Your not, you are literally telling thousands of people who've committed tens of thousands of man-hours and have tested tens or hundreds of thousands of people that they have no idea what they are talking about.

Your saying that your personal opinion is more important than decades of research into the topic involving all these people and all this work.

This is what I was saying "you're wrong" too. How did I do it...and how should you have known that I was commenting on that, and not something else?

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Originally Posted by cdlehner View Post

Nope; see, this is where you guys are exactly wrong...and usually when the conversations start coming toward an end. I have LOTS of respect for people who build the gear that I can only pay to buy...whichever side of the argument they may be on. And I can respect the "scientists" and "objectivists" who actually have gear, and listen...and take a "scientific" approach to the hobby, or discipline; whatever they choose to call it.

I'm not putting them down...and I don't really see them putting me down either. I suspect they're too busy working. No...what I object to are blow-hard, cut-and-paste kings; who don't have any more first-hand experience that things "sound the same", than I have that things "sound different". In other words, squadoosh!

Here, xianthax...let me bold for you...

I have LOTS of respect for people who build the gear that I can only pay to buy...whichever side of the argument they may be on.

And I can respect the "scientists" and "objectivists" who actually have gear, and listen...and take a "scientific" approach to the hobby, or discipline; whatever they choose to call it.

I'm not putting them down

No...what I object to are blow-hard, cut-and-paste kings; who don't have any more first-hand experience that things "sound the same", than I have that things "sound different". In other words, squadoosh!

Talk about reading comprehension. And then what do you come back with? The same-old, repeated for the 1-millionth time..."oh yeah...produce a study that supports your position"...lol

I'm out guys; I win again. Laugh and joke among yourselves. Oh...and geek still hasn't told me what amp he uses.

CD

Music is a moral law. It gives soul to the universe, wings to the mind, flight to the imagination, and charm and gaiety to life and to everything. -Plato
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post #86 of 146 Old 02-03-2011, 05:49 PM
 
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Originally Posted by CDLehner View Post

Still no amp geek-y.

Not sure who you are responding to but I'll ask this, why do you care about amp or someone's amp on a thread about external DAC?

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Still no vast experiences of all your ABX testing.

Is that another one of your assumptions?

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You guys are bigger frauds than those a**holes that sell the audiophile crystals. Why don't you do something? Cut-and-paste kings.

Looks like the same path you took just recently. http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...s#post19717009 Likely you'll end up the same way. Hope you have the wits to learn from the past.

Quote:


Tell me about your kick-a** gear; the pieces that are so good, because you have all the answers on how to get bang-for-the-buck...and figure out which gear to pick, the "right" way.

Why should you know about their gear? Anyone knowing how to pick a gear the right way can post their advice here. What their gears are has nothing to do with it.

Quote:


The rest of you? What...if you can't cut-and-paste the answer, you can't even say what gear you listen to?

What gears they listen to is their own business. They may post it if they want to or feel that it's pertinent to the discussion but not because you want your curiosity filled or play to your attempt to deflect the challenge.
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post #87 of 146 Old 02-03-2011, 05:51 PM
 
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Originally Posted by CDLehner View Post

So I'm sorry no-amp geek-y; what insightful thing of yours did I dodge? I don't see you asking any questions. I don't really think I should answer yours, until you answer at least one of mine; the simplest one...what amp do you own? But I will anyway.

See #86.
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post #88 of 146 Old 02-03-2011, 06:01 PM
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Originally Posted by CDLehner View Post

Talk about reading comprehension. And then what do you come back with? The same-old, repeated for the 1-millionth time..."oh yeah...produce a study that supports your position"...lol

I'm out guys; I win again. Laugh and joke among yourselves. Oh...and geek still hasn't told me what amp he uses.

CD

All the crap you bolded is exactly why you don't get it.

You think that engineers from product companies are the ones that figure this all out?

Scientist != engineer.

The people doing studies and determining audible characteristics are by and large not the people designing products for you to by.
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post #89 of 146 Old 02-03-2011, 06:02 PM
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unsubscribing. nothing new here

Everything I say here is my opinion. It is not my employers opinion, it is not my wife's opinion, it is not my neighbors opinion, it is My Opinion.
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post #90 of 146 Old 02-03-2011, 06:03 PM
 
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Originally Posted by xianthax View Post

All i get from your response is that you have no idea how science approaches these issues and have no interest in learning. Thus you will continue on the same rampage.

Well, his reason being... vvv but only armed with his uninformed opinion.

He's deleted most of his posts on that thread since then. Why? I'll let you figure it out.
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