At what point does audio snake oil become fraud? - Page 12 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #331 of 747 Old 08-24-2011, 03:25 PM
 
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Originally Posted by mcnarus View Post

And we have the right to tell you you're wrong, without feeding the troll.

You do but at the same time lose credibility that all you have to offer is debating terms and nothing useful for anyone to use when they read these threads. So much talk, and so little usefulness in what you have to say.

You want to wear that badge, by all means do. That after all, is the goal of this debate. To examine the meta-conversation and see who is constructive and who is not. A dominant group of people with strong opinions about audio are all of a sudden afraid of saying whether someone shopping for an AVR should care about the performance of its DACs and Amps. They want to reach for caveats all of a sudden. They want to put words in my mouth as to what I am supposed assume *they* believe. Somehow you can read my mind but I can't read yours?

So by all means, post as you do. Raise the noise floor and avoid discussing audio. It is fine by me. It really is, saying as someone who knows how to search in the future and point to these posts .
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post #332 of 747 Old 08-24-2011, 04:41 PM
 
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Originally Posted by amirm View Post

You do but at the same time lose credibility

Have you lost yours, amirm?
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Originally Posted by amirm View Post

It means that to get equal audio performance in an AVR, you may have to spend a lot more money than a dedicated audio DAC. And even then, you may not quite get there.

Here is a way to experiment with this idea. Does your AVR have a button to turn off the video circuits and front panel display? If so, hook up a CD/DVD player using S/PDIF coax cable. Play something quiet with lots of ambiance. Now turn up the volume good and loud (or else use headphones). Play it with the video and front panel circuits on (on both the source and AVR) and then turn them all off. Do you hear a difference? If you do, then the above factor is in play.

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I didn't tell you it takes more money to create a more audible improvement. I said "audio performance."

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post #333 of 747 Old 08-24-2011, 04:41 PM
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I would add that if they think they can tell the difference, they should take truth serum and try again.

I saw the smiley, so was it a joke or did you actually mean to confirm exactly what amir says about *us*?

I mean, you could not actually not know could you?
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post #334 of 747 Old 08-24-2011, 06:21 PM
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I saw the smiley, so was it a joke or did you actually mean to confirm exactly what amir says about *us*?

I actually don't give a flying f**k what Amir thinks of anybody. But yes, I believe that anyone who thinks he can hear a difference between WAV and 320 kbps MP3 using random music files is almost certainly deluding himself.

If you can't explain how it works, you can't say it doesn't.—The High-End Creed

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post #335 of 747 Old 08-24-2011, 06:23 PM
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This thread is almost death. So it's time to leave.

...And all those moments will be lost like tears in rain...



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post #336 of 747 Old 08-24-2011, 07:03 PM
 
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Originally Posted by amirm View Post

No, I meant that you deleted the the mention of DAC and amp out of what you quoted from me:
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OK, one down as expected. This guy doesn't know. Anyone else want to answer what the militant objectivist position is relative to someone shopping for a new AVR?

You're full of crap amir. Again, read your own post (like everyone else can) and my response (which you already have and are in denial)

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Originally Posted by amirm
Anyone else want to answer what the militant objectivist position is

Have your strawman answer your strawman question like any other unobjectivist would.

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Originally Posted by amirm
to someone shopping for a new AVR?

A rational person would shop for a 2011 AVR based on price and features.
What would Amir "self analyzed as more objectivist than everyone here combined" M base AVR decisions on?

cheers,

AJ

p.s. that's how I bought my RX-A800, features....price.

There is no "DAC and amp deleted out" of your quote. That's your imagination/BS schtick autoresponse everyone but you sees.

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I am simply trying to determine what your position is and it seems so impossible to get.

Another load 'o crap. I told you specifically how I decided and what AVR I actually have (unlike you, who is too ashamed to reveal what components you have at home...not at "your associates" store). I have no idea of what your psychogenic definition of "performance" is for this AVR. I have no care what DAC is used, or concern about amp "performance" since the loads will be benign and the internal amps only used for specific channels that won't come close to overtaxing the power supply.

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Originally Posted by amirm View Post

If you don't have a position that is fine to say also.

Yawn. What is your position dancemaster? $600-$700 to spend, what AVR? You have my answer. Dance time?

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Originally Posted by amirm View Post

Angry and little?

Yeah. Maybe bitter too with the inconsolable sobbing

Btw, amir, if you ever converse with Dr Geddes, why don't you tell him about your "performance" theories on $200 receivers with "$1 DAC's" (8+ yr old ones to boot!!). Perhaps he could offer you his free tried and true in home treatment for your disorder.

cheers,

AJ
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post #337 of 747 Old 08-24-2011, 07:10 PM
 
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Originally Posted by mcnarus View Post

I actually don't give a flying f**k what Amir thinks of anybody.

Talk to Krab. He is the one who brought up the topic .

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But yes, I believe that anyone who thinks he can hear a difference between WAV and 320 kbps MP3 using random music files is almost certainly deluding himself.

How could someone "almost certainly" delude themselves? Do you mean there are cases where they don't? See my my issue with the way you take your positions?

It is as if you know your generalizations can be proven wrong (and certainly so in this case) but you say them anyway, hoping that the weasel words in there are not noticed. But that if you are cornered, you can point to it and say, "look, I didn't mean it across the board." I said "almost" certainly. So at the end of the day, it is a marketing attempt to win an argument by exaggeration where one is not merited.

Putting that aside, taking you as an example, as an objectivist I will take the position that you should not worry at all about differences in DACs, and amps in AVRs. No ifs, no buts. No "almost certainly." Anyone want to challenge that? BTW, there is nothing wrong with your situation. You will have money saved over the rest of us who might hear such differences which can be put to other good uses, such as buying more music.
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post #338 of 747 Old 08-24-2011, 07:22 PM
 
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Originally Posted by amirm View Post

You will have money saved over the rest of us who might hear such differences

Might hear? Talk about weasel words....
So amir, the specifics: when/how did you "hear" DAC differences in AVRs.
By "hear", do you mean an audible change in the soundwaves within the soundfield, or...
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post #339 of 747 Old 08-24-2011, 07:26 PM
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How could someone "almost certainly" delude themselves? Do you mean there are cases where they don't? See my my issue with the way you take your positions?

What I see is someone who's just here to make an issue with anyone about anything.

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It is as if you know your generalizations can be proven wrong (and certainly so in this case)

But I didn't make the generalization. I put the qualifier in there, and did so for a reason. You want to simultaneously accuse me of 1) making baseless generalizations, and 2) being afraid to make generalizations.

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So at the end of the day, it is a marketing attempt to win an argument by exaggeration where one is not merited.

How is anything I say on an Internet forum be a "marketing attempt"? I'm not the high-end shill here; you are.

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You will have money saved over the rest of us who might hear such differences...

Delusional.

If you can't explain how it works, you can't say it doesn't.—The High-End Creed

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post #340 of 747 Old 08-24-2011, 07:34 PM
 
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Originally Posted by AJinFLA View Post

You're full of crap amir.

Thanks for making my point about non-constructive posts AJ. Keep going please .

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Another load 'o crap. I told you specifically how I decided and what AVR I actually have (unlike you, who is too ashamed to reveal what components you have at home...not at "your associates" store).

First of all, I didn't ask you what AVR you bought. I asked what advice you give to others.

As to my equipment at home, it is listed in my profile. If you don't know how to read them, then I don't know what to say.

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I have no idea of what your psychogenic definition of "performance" is for this AVR.

I used that word carefully because that is what was quoted from me and objected to from WBF. If you don't know what I meant, then you better ask me first, before complaining. Krab certainly had no issue understanding and then objecting to it.
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I have no care what DAC is used, or concern about amp "performance" since the loads will be benign and the internal amps only used for specific channels that won't come close to overtaxing the power supply.

Then what is all the complaining about? You are 100% agreeing with the way I stated your position! See you don't even know when there is an agreement. Everything is a fight for the sake of having a fight.

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Yawn. What is your position dancemaster? $600-$700 to spend, what AVR? You have my answer. Dance time?

I gave it already. Keep reading the follow on posts.

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Btw, amir, if you ever converse with Dr Geddes, why don't you tell him about your "performance" theories on $200 receivers with "$1 DAC's" (8+ yr old ones to boot!!). Perhaps he could offer you his free tried and true in home treatment for your disorder.

cheers,

AJ

You mean this? http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showth...ll=1#post26873

"Again, it sounds like a crap shoot with the consumer getting no useful information whatever on which to make any kind of an informed judgement.

This is why I do recommend Pioneer receivers with chip amps as I have measured these myself and they have no detectable higher order nonlinearities all the down into the noise floor. I have not tested a very large array of amps, because I don't have that many, so I can only recommend from the limited ones that I have tested. I believe that the high -end Pioneer receivers use ICE Power amps so it sounds like they made a bad choice there.

To me the GedLee Metric and the First Watt concept both come down to the same thing. In electronics its the low level stuff that matters.'


I couldn't have said the last sentence better myself . See the bolded section? He doesn't shoot from the hip. He measures things.

So do you own a chip amp Pioneer ARV AJ? Do you design speakers just like he does? Or do you just throw his name around even though you don't follow anything he says?
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post #341 of 747 Old 08-24-2011, 07:42 PM
 
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Originally Posted by mcnarus View Post

What I see is someone who's just here to make an issue with anyone about anything.

What do you mean "anything?" One of the core activities in my group at Microsoft was development of perceptual codecs. And my side job was helping with countless listening tests, both internally and externally (magazines, standards organizations, etc.). It is my core expertise to know whether your claim about 320 kbps is correct or not. That is what I did professionally. You make an incorrect assertion that people are delusional if they think they are hearing differences at that rate and CD and you get annoyed that I say that is not a proper generalization, especially in the manner that you put it forward?

What would you do if Floyd was here and you said constant directivity was not a useful concept of speaker design. Do you think he should not say anything lest he be accused of arguing? What do you think this thread is about? Solving world peace? It is about arguing. If it makes you upset, then I respect that and let's not answer each other's post. But please don't say I am not supposed to comment on a topic near and dear to my heart when an incorrect statement is made about it.
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post #342 of 747 Old 08-24-2011, 07:52 PM
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I believe that the high -end Pioneer receivers use ICE Power amps so it sounds like they made a bad choice there.

sounds like he's making comments about amp sound. If so, then to earle at least 'buy any old receiver' would be a mistake.
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post #343 of 747 Old 08-24-2011, 09:20 PM
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Well, Dune didn't have Morgan Freeman & Tim Robbins! I still like Dune although I would've hoped that Virginia Madsen was dressed in something a lot more revealing. Back in the day she was just knockout looking.

Krab, you ever seen Amir assist some of the folks with their mid level receiver choices?

Can't say I recall one way or the other. I don't search for Amir's posts.
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post #344 of 747 Old 08-24-2011, 09:22 PM
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Well, Dune didn't have Morgan Freeman & Tim Robbins! I still like Dune although I would've hoped that Virginia Madsen was dressed in something a lot more revealing. Back in the day she was just knockout looking.

She was in Dune? The only women I remember from David Lynch's version were Francesca Annis (babe) and Linda Hunt (er...not).
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post #345 of 747 Old 08-24-2011, 09:25 PM
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Originally Posted by mcnarus View Post

I would add that if they think they can tell the difference, they should take truth serum and try again.


I would bet that the number of people who can reliably tell a LAME 320 kbps MP3 from source in a DBT, using a variety of samples, is vastly smaller than the number of audiophiles who believe they can. I suspect the latter includes Amir, who is, as we have learned, of the biggest...audiophiles, on the planet.
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post #346 of 747 Old 08-24-2011, 09:32 PM
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Originally Posted by amirm View Post

What do you mean "anything?" One of the core activities in my group at Microsoft was development of perceptual codecs. And my side job was helping with countless listening tests, both internally and externally (magazines, standards organizations, etc.). It is my core expertise to know whether your claim about 320 kbps is correct or not. That is what I did professionally. You make an incorrect assertion that people are delusional if they think they are hearing differences at that rate and CD and you get annoyed that I say that is not a proper generalization, especially in the manner that you put it forward?


Newsflash: mp3 encoding has gotten better since you worked at Microsoft.

Artifact-trained listeners...especially those who develop codecs...constitute the tiny, tiny, tiny minority of people who can be expected to do well on 320 vs source DBTs. Though even they might need 'codec killer' samples.

I'm still willing to bet you wouldn't perform well, with the modern LAME codec, on random music samples.

And yes, in switching the topic from DAC and amp choice, to mp3, you are dancing furiously again. Aren't you worried about getting a reputation for that?
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post #347 of 747 Old 08-24-2011, 09:40 PM
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Originally Posted by terry j View Post

I believe that the high -end Pioneer receivers use ICE Power amps so it sounds like they made a bad choice there.

sounds like he's making comments about amp sound. If so, then to earle at least 'buy any old receiver' would be a mistake.

If Geddes is concerned with the 'low level stuff' you might ask him if this could be expected to make an audible difference at normal listening levels.

To use an example from another audio realm, 16 vs 24 bits at the consumer level* manifests itself audibly in very low level signal, played back very loud. This does NOT mean that listeners should worry about 16 vs 24 bit as a matter of course. At those playback levels, music recorded at moderate levels would be unpleasant, and at high levels would be dangerous to listen to for extended periods.

(*at the production level, working in high-bit domains makes good sense if many digital edits are to be performed...where accumulated rounding errors could, conceivably, manifest as noise)
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post #348 of 747 Old 08-24-2011, 11:15 PM
 
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Newsflash: mp3 encoding has gotten better since you worked at Microsoft.

Newsflash: the bitstream for MP3 is fixed. While encoders can be improved, they cannot exceed the limited capabilities of MP3 including its filter bank design. There is a reason AAC was invented. More below.

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Artifact-trained listeners...especially those who develop codecs...constitute the tiny, tiny, tiny minority of people who can be expected to do well on 320 vs source DBTs. Though even they might need 'codec killer' samples.

In my experience, there are ordinary people with no training which match the capabilities of trained experts. We would run into them often and would recruit them as part of our test team.

And it doesn't matter that the percentage is "tiny." We are not talking about the general population. We are talking about who is at the top of the pyramid and if so, whether their good hearing is able to hear other artifacts.

And btw, large category of content falls in the category of codec killer. Simple audience clapping is challenging. Solo voices are challenging. Transients such as silent guitar picks are challenging. There is a reason we use codec killers in codec development. They *are* representative of large class of music of interest. Else, MPEG/ITU would be fooling themselves.

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I'm still willing to bet you wouldn't perform well, with the modern LAME codec, on random music samples.

There we go again. "Random music?" If you make a claim of quality, it has to be right for all content. You don't get to choose what I listen to.

You talk about LAME. Let's look at that: http://wiki.hydrogenaudio.org/index.php?title=Lame

Here is a graph from that page:


It shows that it *never* achieves transparency regardless of data rate.

But if you want to walk me through the technical advancements there since 2007 that you think I don't understand and are magical in character as to even exceed the author's own claims per above, I am all ears. Pun intended.

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And yes, in switching the topic from DAC and amp choice, to mp3, you are dancing furiously again. Aren't you worried about getting a reputation for that?

Someone had to give some straight answers given all the fact that you all wore out every dancing shoe there was! Honestly, it was embarrassing to watch you guys wiggle that way and all over the map. There is a reason I don't like sleeping with you all. That, and the fact that I am happily married.

Of course, clever debating tactics never end. I was asked what buying advice I would give. I provided a simple test that people could run to determine their hearing ability. Unlike you, I don't assume I know how well they are able to hear distortion . And that was the extent of discussing said topic. It was a tool to determine someone's ability. There was no intention of discussing the technology itself until you all decided to do that. So please don't complain after the fact. Just look at this post to see how is digging deeper and deeper after you got us in that last rat hole.
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post #349 of 747 Old 08-24-2011, 11:36 PM
 
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I would bet that the number of people who can reliably tell a LAME 320 kbps MP3 from source in a DBT, using a variety of samples, is vastly smaller than the number of audiophiles who believe they can.

You don't need to "bet." What you say is factual. Why did you think I said people should run that test and not just rely on someone claiming to have good ears or being audiophiles?

Here is a fun test Maximum PC ran a few years back, using *VBR* encoding at 160 and 320 kbps (i.e. the actual instantaneous encoding rates were far above these average levels): http://www.maximumpc.com/article/do_...y_off?page=0,0

As you see, testers were often able to, especially with their own content, identify the original and the two encoded rates. But as a whole they came out quite sober, realizing that they were not nearly as good as they thought -- precisely what we learned in large scale tests of audiophiles.

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I suspect the latter includes Amir, who is, as we have learned, of the biggest...audiophiles, on the planet.

It is incredible how you can know people's hearing level without ever meeting them. You must be some kind of magician. Audiologists should hire you, saving them time and money in running people through tests .

You see, I am in your camp. What you said above need not be a snide remark as it is the position I also hold. I just don't go to crazy depths you all go with unsupported foundation. So don't think for a moment that I am at the other extreme. I am not by any stretch of imagination. I am at the limit of objectivity supported by science. I consider you guys past that point by varying degrees.

Now you all go crazy when I point out the difference between us, resorting to debating tactics such as above to position me as a crazy audiophile. But the title doesn't stick. It can't because I don't take their position either and fight their arguments that are unsupported just the same.
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post #350 of 747 Old 08-25-2011, 02:37 AM
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Originally Posted by mcnarus View Post

I actually don't give a flying f**k what Amir thinks of anybody.

Ah, ok.

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No, it's not, and you are not the arbiter of what anybody else believes.

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And we have the right to tell you you're wrong,

Nope, can't see any need on your part to correct his wrong characterisation of your position.
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post #351 of 747 Old 08-25-2011, 02:52 AM
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You might want to rephrase that last sentence. Unless, of course, this accurately describes your view. Can't imagine how it would be though. If someone wrongly characterizes something you say, seems pretty natural to want to correct it.

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post #352 of 747 Old 08-25-2011, 03:05 AM
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Originally Posted by krabapple View Post

If Geddes is concerned with the 'low level stuff' you might ask him if this could be expected to make an audible difference at normal listening levels.

I don't need to ask him anything. You can tho, let us know his answer would ya?

So, I am going on the assumption that you disagreed with my assessment of his statement. (let me know if wrong)

Oh, to make sure we are on the same page, it seemed to me he felt that on sonic grounds they made a mistake using class d amps ok?

We have read your recent scathing dismissals that no true scotsman..oops, no true objectivist would say that all amps sound the same. I mean you throw in a whole bunch of weasel words...level matched, not clipping yada yada.

I mean WHO'D say that right? No true sco..objectivist.

Crap. Cmon, at least be true to your beliefs??

Even here, the elected darling of the fashionable objectivist (did HE elect himself BTW?? or is it being layed on him), per my interpretation of his words, seems to be saying that not all amps sound the same.

And here we are, straight away you are in correcting that impression quick bloody smart. Why would you do that if all amps did NOT sound the same?

Yet in soon to come 'clarifications' (no doubt) we will again be subjected to all the caveats.

Can't let it get out there can we that maybe, just maybe, there could be differences in amps?

It is the utter hypocrisy that rankles, not the viewpoint.

"oh, we say they need to be not clipping'. Sure, I agree. All it is is moving goal posts, the end result being 'all amps sound the same, buy the cheaper'.

What is so hard in admitting it? That is after all what I do when it comes to amps, but I don't go thru the farce of trying to claim otherwise.

At the end of the day, expensive amps are snake oil and all amps sound the same (all things being equal..level matched and not clipping, unsighted)

maybe throw in a few cents worth of resistors and caps eh?

Well all of you have the courage of your convictions. THAT is fine, all this weaseling is just pathetic.


Quote:


To use an example from another audio realm,

I get the example, and that is fine.

but what I DON'T get is why when you use 'an example from another area of audio' it's ok, when amir does it it is 'dancing furiously again'??

Dancing? Crikey, we have a chain of man love going now? Dipstick wants to be AJ, now you want to be dipstick?

The mask slips (easily), that's all. 'No true scot..objectivist-when arguing-ever says all amps sound the same...but hey! bet they can't pick mp3's!'

And what IS with that graph?? If lame 320 kbps mp3 is indistinguishable from cd, why is there (on it's own graph) different points of quality vs file size?? (serious question, I know nothing about it) But it seems to suggest that there is different levels of quality, are they all the same?? (level of audible quality I mean)

If no difference, why list them. Seems redundant.

So what level of lame encoding is transparent?

Seriously, I know nothing about it.
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post #353 of 747 Old 08-25-2011, 03:09 AM
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Originally Posted by CruelInventions View Post

You might want to rephrase that last sentence. Unless, of course, this accurately describes your view. Can't imagine how it would be though. If someone wrongly characterizes something you say, seems pretty natural to want to correct it.

Hi CI

well I HAVE had a few beers, but I am not quite sure i grasp your point. I mean I looked (given the time of night, I could have typed a howler!)...

Mcnarus states he does not give a flying fvck what amir thinks about him, yet here he was correcting what amir said about him.

So yeah, from that viewpoint it IS natural to correct it, but why then say you don't care? Obviously you do, else you would not be correcting him.

But, again, it could be me screwed up!
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post #354 of 747 Old 08-25-2011, 03:10 AM
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Curious why you didn't reply to this post of mine below (second sentence, now in bold, specifically).


Quote:
Originally Posted by CruelInventions View Post

First, you're welcome. Second, I can't find a post where he turned around to throw your own misspelling back at you. That's part of what is confusing in all of this.

You are very big on absolute accuracy and acknowledging mistakes, neither which is in evidence here. Unless, of course, you are able to find that post.

I'll cut you a little slack here in that you always have a ton of other posts to respond to.

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post #355 of 747 Old 08-25-2011, 03:17 AM
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Originally Posted by terry j View Post


Mcnarus states he does not give a flying fvck what amir thinks about him, yet here he was correcting what amir said about him.

There is a clear distinction between not caring what someone has to say about you (their opinion of you) vs. caring that someone has incorrectly summarized your position or a statement that you have made.


If you still fail to see a distinction, please refrain from replying and wait 'til you've sobered up a bit and then reassess.

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post #356 of 747 Old 08-25-2011, 06:13 AM
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There we go again. "Random music?" If you make a claim of quality, it has to be right for all content.

There you go again. We get to make the claim we make. You do not get to rewrite the claim in order to assert that we are wrong.

You must have been a real S.O.B. on your high school debating team. Unfortunately, you still debate like a high school kid.

If you can't explain how it works, you can't say it doesn't.—The High-End Creed

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post #357 of 747 Old 08-25-2011, 06:27 AM
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I provided a simple test that people could run to determine their hearing ability.

But it's not a test of hearing ability. It's a test of the ability to recognize particular codec artifacts. There's no reason to believe that someone with that ability (especially if it's a learned ability) would be any better than average at detecting other forms of distortion—or, for that matter, any better at hearing differences between DACs. So it's really lousy advice to anyone shopping for audio gear.

Now, here's a little research project for you to pursue in your spare time. Assemble a bunch of people who have the ability to distinguish 320 kbps MP3s (you know loads of them, right?), and conduct some careful DBTs of CD players. If you get robust positive results, you've got a nice AES paper.

If you can't explain how it works, you can't say it doesn't.—The High-End Creed

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post #358 of 747 Old 08-25-2011, 07:15 AM
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FWIW, WRT to the whole receiver thing, I wouldn't worry about what DAC it has. I have seen folks get wrapped up in talking about that this model BB is better than that one and they start pulling out TI spec sheets but IMO that's chasing down rabbit holes. Just speaking for myself, when I'm somewhat undecided on a purchase choice (doesn't have to be audio), I'll do a search adding the term 'problem' and see what turns up. I'm interested in the quirks and issues that products have. Also, for those who just have girlfriends, if it comes down to two, ask her which one she likes. Then choose the other one. Odds are you'll have the receiver longer than the girlfriend. No sense in letting her start marking territory like a wolf.

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Originally Posted by CruelInventions View Post

Curious why you didn't reply to this post of mine below (second sentence, now in bold, specifically).

Simple. I thought it was pedantic to keep arguing about the meaning of a misspelled word in front of many people would probably could care less about that. I had said what I meant and there was no confusion about my position. He understood it just the same even though he disagreed violently. So there was no reason to keep saying it.

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You are very big on absolute accuracy and acknowledging mistakes, neither which is in evidence here. Unless, of course, you are able to find that post.

I care about that in matters of science. Here, the guy is angry with me over a misunderstanding. I made a call to let the argument go than to keep dragging it in on the meaning of "it." But since you insist, here it is. I hope it doesn't create another round of him being angry with me.

I meant that what started the argument was him misspelling the word initially according to him. For proof point, he was pointing to me misspelling the word and running off with it -- precisely what he was complaining I did to him. So he was doing what he said I shouldn't have done (taking misspellings to have significance). This is what confused me about his post. He was complaining about something yet was pointing the finger to himself indirectly. It wasn't until I read his original post that I figured out why he was doing it and the source of confusion.

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I'll cut you a little slack here in that you always have a ton of other posts to respond to.

Appreciate that but please note it is not important for me to win every battle. In this case, if he continues to get upset and you think I have not justified the meaning of a sentence about a misunderstanding, so be it. If it is really important that I resolve this in your eyes further, please PM me.
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post #360 of 747 Old 08-25-2011, 07:44 AM
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To be fair Amir, Earl Geddes puts amps/receivers way down on the list of things to worry about (if you have his speakers which I do). Get the right speakers, the right room, and get the bass right I think would be things Earl thinks are important.
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