At what point does audio snake oil become fraud? - Page 22 - AVS Forum
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post #631 of 747 Old 08-30-2011, 07:58 PM
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Originally Posted by amirm View Post

I am trying to follow your arguments Krab.


No you're not. You're trying to subject them to the death of 1,000 stupid cuts. Even direct, simple 'YES' or 'NO' answers ...which you've demanded of me several times, and which I've supplied -- don't shut you up.

Forget it. You're on ignore from here on. You're just too damn much of a ridiculous time suck machine. And that's saying something.

Feel free to meditate on this... you generated quite an interesting discussion on HA, along with some brickbats, and actually induced a change in that supposedly damning graph:

http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/...dpost&p=767574

http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/...dpost&p=767750

http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/...dpost&p=767767

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I have gone ahead and updated the caption for the graph in the wiki, and linked to the relevant discussions.

Old caption: Here a trial to see how the perceived listening quality improves with settings/averaged filesize

New caption: This informal graph shows how LAME's highest quality settings result in progressively larger file sizes, but yield relatively smaller gains in perceived listening quality.

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post #632 of 747 Old 08-30-2011, 08:00 PM
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Originally Posted by krabapple View Post

Maybe is should have bolded 'hopeless'? (yes, I have 'Aspie' tendencies myself.)

If it was in reference to yourself, my apologies, krabapple.

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post #633 of 747 Old 08-30-2011, 08:03 PM
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Originally Posted by AJinFLA View Post

Well, seeing that they didn't exist when amir started fabricating claims about HDMI back in April..and then the subsequent red herring/smokescreen about them to divert away from him getting exposed lying about HDMI blind tests (not to mention SPDIF)...it's all sort of retroactive, ya understand?
You recall him claiming AVR dac/amp "performance" issue in this thread?
Of course not...look over here, over here (arms waving)...AJ's speakers, look, look...


It's the Amir two-step...it involves frequent,random 90-degree changes in direction. You'd think it would be interesting to watch, but ye gods, it's so not.



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Btw, where is arny these days? Haven't seen any trace of him on HA. Hope all is well.


I remember betting to myself at some point in this decade-long thread (or does it only seem that way?) that he'd show up...I'll have to take a look around and see if he's been posting at any of the usual spots.
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post #634 of 747 Old 08-30-2011, 08:07 PM
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Originally Posted by tesseract67 View Post

If it was in reference to yourself, my apologies, krabapple.

Well, I added self-diagnosed, I'm not claiming 'official' Aspie status. Could be bias! But yes, I did mean myself there.
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post #635 of 747 Old 08-30-2011, 08:27 PM
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[quote=terry j;20886850]
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Cahoots? not really, but certainly birds of a feather. The irony? Note the use of over clown above. So WE are in cahoots but you never are. Interesting what subconsciously gets written eh.

No, just that's he's MORE clowny than you are. I think he is your superior in that regard.

I don't think you're Batman and Robin though...not really a 'team'. As far as I care to recall (which frankly at this point isn't far) you don't agree on everything either. Have I asked you to justify something he said?


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Still, my question to you was predicated on an assumption of mine, apologies for that.

I assumed you are reading the thread. Instead, it seems that (oh my, the hypocrisy) you are paying attention to what I and amir say only. And you accuse us of having developed something for aj's posts?

Funny what gets subconsciously written eh?


That would be another poor assumption on your part. Two, actually. One is that I pay attention only to what you and amir are writing. Two is that I'm paying much closer attention to you guys' posts than to AJ's .

Seriously, my eyes glaze over at Amir's longer perorations. I often have to skip to the next post. Otherwise one might never get out of the labyrinth. Maybe that's why I keep 'losing the plot'. You're nuts if you think I'm actually bothering to keep track of all the myriad thrusts and counter-thrusts going on here between you, Amir , me, diomania, AJ, Chu, and whoever else is chiming in today.

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No, your VIEWS are totally fine. I agree with pretty well every_single_one of them (not that that means a thing).

I gather it means there's something wrong with you.

Quote:


So, assuming his room was an exact copy of all the things you consider bad,would you be as 'hard' on him as you like to be on others??

Sure, if he was making grandiose or fluffy claims about sound quality from it...especially about stuff like, oh, I dunno, the difference between HDMI and toslink. Or if he was selling hockey pucks and calling them room correctors.

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Or is it that he is from your village, like dipsy.

I have to apologize here: as part of my not paying terribly close attention, I haven't kept track of your coinages either. Who exactly is 'dipsy'?
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Very good! I guess it is not too much of a stretch, or the odds are pretty good in anglo saxon world, but yes! The j is jones haha.

You're quite mad. I wasn't taking a stab at guessing your name. I was quoting a monty python movie. It didn't even occur to me that you are also called 'terry j'. Get over yourself.

Quote:


Yeah, I can see that you are a smart man...funny what subconsciously get's written? Every single one of them was a reflection back to you.

It is however, the way to read AJs posts too. If he accuses someone of something it is a pretty sure bet he does it himself. Same as you here it seems.

Yep, worst thread ever.
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post #636 of 747 Old 08-31-2011, 04:24 AM
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Originally Posted by tesseract67 View Post

That's what I thought, most spell "Aspie". Pretty offensive statement to those affected by AS, krabapple.

Oh, please, I hate people outside an issue even commenting on how those in it should feel. Pretty common useage amongst ourselves and it's just an abbreviation. Been called far, far worse things.
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post #637 of 747 Old 08-31-2011, 04:40 AM
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Originally Posted by AJinFLA View Post

Was this the room you tested the Audio Artistry Beethovens in?

No. I didn't review the AA Beethoven for Stereophile. That was Shannon Dickson: http://www.stereophile.com/floorloud...328/index.html .

I did perform the measurements.That was done in the dedicated room Stereophile had in its old Santa Fe facility: http://www.stereophile.com/content/2...treet-santa-fe .

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Originally Posted by AJinFLA View Post

What you don't realize is John and I agreed (for the price of a case of Newcastle and a handshake) for him to tell you we don't have an agreement. Exactly as he just did.

There was no agreement.

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post #638 of 747 Old 08-31-2011, 05:39 AM
 
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Originally Posted by stereoeditor View Post

No. I didn't review the AA Beethoven for Stereophile. That was Shannon Dickson: http://www.stereophile.com/floorloud...328/index.html .

I did perform the measurements.That was done in the dedicated room Stereophile had in its old Santa Fe facility: http://www.stereophile.com/content/2...treet-santa-fe.

Yes, I'm aware of who did what, wasn't sure where. What was your criteria for adding the "treatments" to your (current) room?
Have you ever tested(and/or listened to) anything like the Gradient Revolution in there?

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There was no agreement.

John Atkinson
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Just like we agreed to. Public denial. Thanks John. We'll keep terry twisting .
Maybe you could deny it one more time for good measure, throw in a little something extra?

cheers,

AJ
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post #639 of 747 Old 08-31-2011, 05:49 AM
 
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Originally Posted by tesseract67 View Post

this is the worst AVS thread... ever. And that is saying a lot.

Do you have objective "data" to back up that claim? Will blind testing verify that testable claim (testable like "high end sound", or "form follows function")?
Is it based on poor "performance"? Or is it a purely subjective observation, like "HDMI 'sounds' worse than USB?", or "I can 'hear' differences with SPDIF"?

(Ok, guess you never watched Seinfeld either)

cheers,

AJ
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post #640 of 747 Old 08-31-2011, 07:03 AM
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Originally Posted by amirm View Post

What I do in these instances is to attempt to approximate. I would put the speakers away from corners and somewhat close to each other and test blind. Then swap their positions and test again. If in both instances folks liked the other speaker, I would go "hmmm, I wonder if I did build a better mousetrap."

.

I have found in testing loudspeakers without a quick switch between them, my mind is notoriously short term. I also found at least with bookshelf speakers that the speaker with the better bass response has an advantage that might not really tell you the whole story especially if you are going to mate with a sub. You might get some "ideas" but for me it was not definitive. FWIW, I tested Earl Geddes Harper speaker against Salks Songtower bookshelf. I did not change positions and only checked "mono" vs. "mono". If I did not quick switch I don't think I would have gained any insight.
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post #641 of 747 Old 08-31-2011, 07:27 AM
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When I first read this thread, posted by dsmith901, I had a great laugh and thought to myself, "Price it high enough (after all it's not like if they cost $10 - $40 they'd be flying off the shelves) and make some stupid claims. You'll probably sell a few each year. Take the profits, buy some audio stuff for your home, and get to claim 0 profit for tax purposes.

I figured the thread would take the course of people listing other whacky stuff that's out there. Magic pebbles, feng shu audio system alignment, blasting cables or those little funny prayer type bowls with mega volts, maybe some Michael Green wooden tuning blocks. You know stuff like that.

It was funny to me at least, to read that the folks in the WBF forum decided to take that vinyl demagnetising device and test it. Initially I thought, well that's great. There'll be a methodical and rigorous examination that'll show the guys who made it are just whacked. But after a while, I thought to myself, why the phuck are they going through this effort? People that are hard core believers only tend to get strengthened in their beliefs while challenged. Why is this being taken seriously and why is everyone taking so damned politely and with such seriousness? Why isn't everyone, with the exception of Lavigne and a few others just laughing their royal asses off? Wasn't that the point of The Emperor's New Clothes? Let the pompous self-absorbed person of remarkably discriminating taste come to grips that the world looks upon him as a gullible fool.

What are we as individuals prepared for as we navigate life? What lessons and common sense do we have that we can use for ourselves and impart to our children to avoid making dumb ass decisions? I'd like to think that if a hot babe strikes up a conversation that suggests hook up time, you might have the common sense to check if she's got an Adam's apple. If a company says buy from me because my work is guaranteed for the life of your home and to whomever you sell it to, you'll realize that's pretty much a BS guarantee. If you go into a drug store and see homeopathic medicine you'll not fall into the trap of buying it. That thing you stick on the neck of a wine bottle isn't going to tranform a $5 bottle of wine into a $500 one. Zonking your incoming water with magnetic fields isn't going to make it less hard. And so it goes. Why test any of this crap? It ought to be ridiculed. You don't need personal experience. You need some god damned common sense.

"I've found that when you want to know the truth about someone that someone is probably the last person you should ask." - Gregory House
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post #642 of 747 Old 08-31-2011, 08:26 AM
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Well put.

(As a side note... during a night of heavy drinking, my cousin almost got caught by overlooking the Adam's apple test. Also, at 2:00 am, the beard starts to kick in. After 35 years, he's still thanking me for being an observant drunk. )
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post #643 of 747 Old 08-31-2011, 08:40 AM
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Originally Posted by AJinFLA View Post

What was your criteria for adding the "treatments" to your (current) room?

As explained earlier, one goal was to get a relatively even Rt60 in the midrange and low treble. Higher in frequency, the Rt60 falls off due to the increasing absorptivity of room furnishings. Another goal was to eliminate as much as possible specular reflections and flutter echo without making the acoustic excessively dead. As a result, the room is moderately live but quite uncolored in the midrange and above. I used DRAL Labs' MLSSA system, BTW, to do all my acoustics measurements while setting up the room.

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Have you ever tested(and/or listened to) anything like the Gradient Revolution in there?

Not the Revolution, but I did review the Gradient Helsinki in that room for the November 2010 issue of Stereophile; see http://www.stereophile.com/content/j...-november-2010 , which includes a link to a photo of the Gradients as set up to sound at their best, as well as a link to my 1997 comments on the Revolution, which I reviewed in my Santa Fe room.

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Originally Posted by stereoeditor View Post

There was no agreement.

Just like we agreed to. Public denial. Thanks John. We'll keep terry twisting .
Maybe you could deny it one more time for good measure, throw in a little something extra?

Even if you are not serious, please stop saying that you and I agreed that I wouldn't mention the sound quality of your prototype speakers in my report from the Capital AudioFest. I don't make such deals. While I don't pay any attention to what an exhibitor might wish, I tend to publish comments on sound quality if the sound is good, but not if the sound is poor. It might have been the case that the exhibitor was saddled with such poor room acoustics that there was nothing he could do about them, even if he had tried, which you say you didn't.

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post #644 of 747 Old 08-31-2011, 08:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Randy Bessinger View Post
I have found in testing loudspeakers without a quick switch between them, my mind is notoriously short term.
It is not just your mind, it is true of just about everyone . The mechanism I suggested allows for fast switching in each set up. There is no physical movement in the experiments itself. The only delay is switching them physically and then re-running the test to see if a speaker rank changes when you swap its position.

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post #645 of 747 Old 08-31-2011, 09:28 AM
 
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Originally Posted by stereoeditor View Post
As explained earlier, one goal was to get a relatively even Rt60 in the midrange and low treble. Higher in frequency, the Rt60 falls off due to the increasing absorptivity of room furnishings.
And you believed the RT60 targets you measured after treatment are what explains your perceptions below? A sort of direct correlation?

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Originally Posted by stereoeditor View Post
Another goal was to eliminate as much as possible specular reflections and flutter echo without making the acoustic excessively dead. As a result, the room is moderately live but quite uncolored in the midrange and above.
I used DRAL Labs' MLSSA system, BTW, to do all my acoustics measurements while setting up the room.
So did you base your perceptions on the target measurements, or the target measurements on your perception?

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Originally Posted by stereoeditor View Post
Not the Revolution, but I did review the Gradient Helsinki in that room for the November 2010 issue of Stereophile; see http://www.stereophile.com/content/j...-november-2010 , which includes a link to a photo of the Gradients as set up to sound at their best.
Yes, I'm aware of those, but the Revolution is a bit different in design.

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Even if you are not serious, please stop saying that you and I agreed that I wouldn't mention the sound quality of your prototype speakers in my report from the Capital AudioFest.
That sounds very convincing and plausible. I'm sure terry will swallow it hook line and sinker. Thanks, you're doing a great job.

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I tend to publish comments on sound quality if the sound is good, but not if the sound is poor. It might have been the case that the exhibitor was saddled with such poor room acoustics that there was nothing he could do about them, even if he had tried, which you say you didn't.

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile
Now John, would your perception of what is poor/good sound, be in anyway affected by factors other than acoustics? Say, for example, the way a product looks? Or perhaps, knowledge of the product(s), even if retroactive in nature?

cheers,

AJ
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post #646 of 747 Old 08-31-2011, 09:29 AM
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Originally Posted by AJinFLA View Post
Do you have objective "data" to back up that claim? Will blind testing verify that testable claim (testable like "high end sound", or "form follows function")?
Is it based on poor "performance"? Or is it a purely subjective observation, like "HDMI 'sounds' worse than USB?", or "I can 'hear' differences with SPDIF"?

(Ok, guess you never watched Seinfeld either)

cheers,

AJ
In my opinion the worst one was the one about power cables. There were thousands of posts of bantering and pissing contest, and that was without Amir. Now that should say something. Back then Amir was not involved in these parts of forums as much since it was before he established his competing forum and business. I can only imagine how long that thread would last if Amir started posting. It is a scary thought!
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post #647 of 747 Old 08-31-2011, 09:41 AM
 
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Originally Posted by hd_newbie View Post
In my opinion the worst one was the one about power cables. There were thousands of posts of bantering and pissing contest, and that was without Amir. Now that should say something. Back then Amir was not involved in these parts of forums as much since it was before he established his competing forum and business. I can only imagine how long that thread would last if Amir started posting. It is a scary thought!
Oh I'm sure amir could carpet bomb us with "data" showing the increased "performance" of boutique power cables and their "10x lower distortion", etc., etc.
Followed by how he has done blind tests at home to "prove" that "it" was audible. And how you too could purchase a boutique cable and "try it for yourself" at home. If you don't "hear" any difference, don't feel bad (in an elitist, condescending tone of the massively self delusional): 90% of the population can't "hear" ghosts, excuse me, power cables either.
The chosen few who can hear codec artifacts are thus automatically qualified to hear power cables, ghosts, SPDIF, HDMI and whatever else, since "artifacts is artifacts", ya know?

cheers,

AJ
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post #648 of 747 Old 08-31-2011, 10:31 AM
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Originally Posted by krabapple View Post
It's always nice to run across kindred spirits in the course of one's internet audio rambles...i ended up reading this thread thanks to an AVSF thread with hardly anything to do with 'ours':

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi...ml#post2691372
lmao

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post #649 of 747 Old 08-31-2011, 10:53 AM
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Originally Posted by AJinFLA View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by stereoeditor
As explained earlier, one goal was to get a relatively even Rt60 in the midrange and low treble. Higher in frequency, the Rt60 falls off due to the increasing absorptivity of room furnishings.
And you believed the RT60 targets you measured after treatment are what explains your perceptions below? A sort of direct correlation?
The Rt60 measurements are part of the explanation. But there are also the issues of specular reflections, and low-frequency room modes below the region where Rt60 can be calculated.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by stereoeditor
Another goal was to eliminate as much as possible specular reflections and flutter echo without making the acoustic excessively dead. As a result, the room is moderately live but quite uncolored in the midrange and above.
I used DRAL Labs' MLSSA system, BTW, to do all my acoustics measurements while setting up the room.
So did you base your perceptions on the target measurements, or the target measurements on your perception?
Neither. Start with an empty room and set-up the system. Listen, measure, make a change. Repeat the process until the acoustic problems are minimized, both regarding the listening and the measuring. Inevitably, there will be missteps, so it is important not to be dogmatic about what works and what doesn't work. And this is exactly the same procedure to follow when determining the best positions in the room for a new pair of speakers, though I tend only to measure at the beginning and end of the process in that situation.

You can find a primer I wrote on how to set up speakers in a room at http://www.stereophile.com/reference...aks/index.html .

Not all the problems can be resolved; for example, in my room, a double-stack of wider Tube Traps in the corner in front of the door would have resolved a slight imbalance in the manner in which the left and right speakers excited room modes in the mid-bass. But then no-one would have been able to get in or out of the room. :-)

John Atkinson
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post #650 of 747 Old 08-31-2011, 02:25 PM
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Oh, please, I hate people outside an issue even commenting on how those in it should feel. Pretty common useage amongst ourselves and it's just an abbreviation. Been called far, far worse things.
I'm pretty inside the issue, so don't tell me how to feel about it. Krabapple explained his statement and the matter was squashed. Where exactly do YOU fit into this? Your post doesn't make a lot of sense, nobody was called names. Common usage amongst yourselves? That's really... cool, A9X.

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post #651 of 747 Old 08-31-2011, 04:48 PM
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I wonder if anyone that gets excited by the thought of boutique power cables would take this challenge. Take ANY amplifier at all, and put a switchable, diode isolated parallel circuit to allow the amp to run on 100% battery power, AC provided by the stock cable through the on board power supply and a third position using ANY boutique power cable regardless of manufacture or price.

The system would parallel all three sources and under operation with program material of YOUR choice, I randomly drop away any 2 power sources and you correctly identify which source is powering the system.

We use fully charged gel cell batteries in a series combination to achieve the correct operating voltage.

Any takers?
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post #652 of 747 Old 08-31-2011, 05:09 PM
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I'm excited.

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post #653 of 747 Old 08-31-2011, 05:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AJinFLA View Post

Oh I'm sure amir could carpet bomb us with "data" showing the increased "performance" of boutique power cables and their "10x lower distortion", etc., etc.

Followed by how he has done blind tests at home to "prove" that "it" was audible. And how you too could purchase a boutique cable and "try it for yourself" at home.

If you are so sure, why not quote me? You have been in threads with me regarding cable discussions so it shouldn't be hard.

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post #654 of 747 Old 08-31-2011, 05:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

It was funny to me at least, to read that the folks in the WBF forum decided to take that vinyl demagnetising device and test it. Initially I thought, well that's great. There'll be a methodical and rigorous examination that'll show the guys who made it are just whacked. But after a while, I thought to myself, why the phuck are they going through this effort? People that are hard core believers only tend to get strengthened in their beliefs while challenged. Why is this being taken seriously and why is everyone taking so damned politely and with such seriousness? Why isn't everyone, with the exception of Lavigne and a few others just laughing their royal asses off?

Why indeed. You are right. Maybe we should have laughed our behinds off. And oh, if Greg (OP in that thread) saw that as an insult to his intelligence and decided to run off the forum, all the better. I mean why wouldn't the world be a better place with less subjectivists? Take their voices away I say! The man is a lawyer. It is not like we would ever want to have a friend with that kind of skill in real life. Let's bash him to pieces so that he runs so fast while we are laughing at him that we don't even notice it! Why not indeed. There will be so many well-educated people who would be saved from audio snake oil they read online. They *need* to be saved by us. I am confident that the few of us were put on this earth for that purpose. All good I say.

But there is one fly in the ointment. This hobby is ultimately about music and the man, Greg, knows it cold. I don't care if you hate old/Jazz music. He will convert you to loving it. If you are not emotionally moved by his selections in this thread, I would venture to say you don't have a soul! http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showth...eos-The-Greats!

I was not that much into that genre either but I was tapping my toes, and had hair on the back of neck raising as I listened to his selections one after the other. The thread went on for 40 pages! If you want to have a few hours of fun, watch those videos.

Earlier in this thread, Giz asked a key question: "When was the last time anyone here listened to the music for the sake of musical enjoyment without whacking off over their equipment and supposed peerless "knowledge?" With that one question, he made me regret arguing with him in other threads. It *is* about the music. Good music is good music even through the awful pipe of Youtube above.

Fascinatingly so, his message only resonated with two people: Terry and I. We post our favorite music we were just listening to and discussed them a bit. Everyone else went about their business as if that discussion didn't matter. Yes, it was OT. But heck, so was everything else we were arguing about! Coincident that the only two people responding positively so to his question also post on WBF? Possibly. It lacks statistical significance some would say .

So yes, you do need to see the Forrest from the trees brother Chu. As a moderator on WBF, when I am asked to a gladiator fight, I think through how it can be a constructive discussion so the other side doesn't think it is a personal battle fought to death. I think what we can still learn so that it is not a waste of time. And that is precisely what we did.

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Wasn't that the point of The Emperor's New Clothes? Let the pompous self-absorbed person of remarkably discriminating taste come to grips that the world looks upon him as a gullible fool.

Do you walk around in your town rounding up "gullbile fools" Chu? When you are in a restaurant, do you object to what people are eating and ordering? I was once at a sushi restaurant in Vegas. I asked how much Toro Zushi was and I was told $106 for two pieces! Even with company expense account, I wasn't going to go there. But the two girls next to me ordered it. I bet if you were there you would stop them and tell them what gullible fools they are because they could have a hamburger at a fast food restaurant for $6. And they would be even more full that way.

The emperor's new cloths? That is the thought that there is some score to be settled with those folks at any cost.

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What are we as individuals prepared for as we navigate life? What lessons and common sense do we have that we can use for ourselves and impart to our children to avoid making dumb ass decisions? I'd like to think that if a hot babe strikes up a conversation that suggests hook up time, you might have the common sense to check if she's got an Adam's apple.

Don't let anyone tell you are not funny from time to time . Also don't let anyone tell you that you don't sneak in these nasty jabs, wrapped in a towel in the middle of them. I call that the velvet hammer after a senior executive at Microsoft who had a reputation of always smiling at you including the moment in his office when he would fire you . A joke doesn't take away the ironic nature of how you started this paragraph.

For an example of what lessons in life we need to leave for our children, read my response above. Your biggest worry should be whether they are ashamed of sharing the same last name with you after reading posts such as yours just now, not whether you proved one less person wrong on his audio beliefs. Set a good example by having a constructive discussion. Act proactively to shut down people who are not, whether they are in your camp or not. Come out on top as a human being first, and a debater of your audio point of view second. I get caught up and sometimes forget these priorities also but it is top of mind when I am not in that mood.

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Why test any of this crap? It ought to be ridiculed. You don't need personal experience. You need some god damned common sense.

Said precisely how I like you to say it to make my points above . Think about that before you write the predictable post I know you are going to write....

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post #655 of 747 Old 08-31-2011, 06:24 PM
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how did that 'crap' pan out?

did they all of a sudden find that vinyl demag (that is the one??) worked, or did they find scientific reasons why vinyl demag per se did not make the difference they heard.

So a dbt is good to use as proof, but not any other sort of scientific investigation? So if I have it right, the objectivist would rather prove others wrong by ridicule and not science?

Exactly as has been pointed out by a hew fere.....

Aw fvck it, go that one_little_step further. DON'T bother with dbts to prove things, just use ridicule. So why the constant harping from you guys "do a dbt"?? After all, these stupid audiofool things need to be laughed at, not given credibility by dbt's!

Sullies the good name of dbts it does.

Err, what now do we use them for?

Oh the irony. that was given as an example of the scientific method, it exposed some audiophoolery, and it STILL get's pooh poohed. But, any sort of random test reported (it ONLY has to have db in the title and it is unquestionably accepted) get's taken as gospel by you lot?

I am truly stumped for words to describe this.
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post #656 of 747 Old 08-31-2011, 07:08 PM
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how did that 'crap' pan out?

did they all of a sudden find that vinyl demag (that is the one??) worked, or did they find scientific reasons why vinyl demag per se did not make the difference they heard.

Neither actually. What we did show, objectively using measurements and analysis, was that play to play variations in LP accounted for the same level of audible differences. That is, the demag effect could not be measured because the before and after LP playback without application of demag had the same level of "improvement." Since we could not disambiguate the audible test results from that factor vs demag, their findings were not conclusive. I give it a two thirds victory for the objective side of the house .

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post #657 of 747 Old 08-31-2011, 08:09 PM
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I don't have a soul & fwiw, I'm laughing at the vendors. If there are people who are offended by this, well that's collateral damage.

"I've found that when you want to know the truth about someone that someone is probably the last person you should ask." - Gregory House
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post #658 of 747 Old 08-31-2011, 11:09 PM
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I don't have a soul & fwiw, I'm laughing at the vendors. If there are people who are offended by this, well that's collateral damage.

"Let the pompous self-absorbed person of remarkably discriminating taste come to grips that the world looks upon him as a gullible fool."

That is some description of a "vendor!"

As for "collateral damage," there is plenty of that to go around. You use your real name. So one day your children or theirs will read these posts and wonder who is the child, and who is the parent....

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post #659 of 747 Old 09-01-2011, 12:54 AM
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I don't have a soul & fwiw, I'm laughing at the vendors. If there are people who are offended by this, well that's collateral damage.

Pretty sure I hve mentioned this, but perhaps it is time to say it again?

What is snake oil?

whatever WE think it is. No more, no less.

We all have our different lines in the sand.

People that are hard core believers only tend to get strengthened in their beliefs while challenged
It was a bit unclear in the initial exposition just WHO this referred to. I agree completely, as long as it is not limited to 'the gullible subjectivist'. It applies to all.

(brett, if you read this and have the link could you re post it? Someone recently linked to this piece, well worth a read) It goes over this point, something like 'the MORE you try and convince someone the more hardened they become'.

Why test any of this crap? It ought to be ridiculed. You don't need personal experience. You need some god damned common sense.

Well, here is the funny bit in light of the above, snake oil being what WE decide it is.

Who is the arbiter of what should be investigated and what should be ridiculed? Is that how *we* gain collective knowledge? By deciding beforehand what is worth investigating and what is not?

Don't worry, I get the essential point...'if there is nothing remotely plausible from existing science' yada yada..think I should be pretty close there, if not sorry and correct it please.

So...do we investigate the benefits or not of say room treatment (a la the WBF discussion)? Who decides that.

AJ if he were the decider will say 'no, it is all snake oil', and if he were able would shut the conversation down before it got started. Yet clearly, many others would wish to have and benefit from a discussion along those lines.

So how do we decide a priori what is worth investigating and what is not. And furthermore, who truly feels that a discussion does not go better when respect and good manners are involved?

That alone may be the stimulus for the derision shown. Ok, WE might love a bitchin good fight and argument on the net, but it is hardly productive no matter how much we enjoy it!
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post #660 of 747 Old 09-01-2011, 01:16 AM
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^^ As requested.

The Backfire Effect

The most recent article is also interesting and relevant.
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