At what point does audio snake oil become fraud? - Page 25 - AVS Forum
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post #721 of 747 Old 09-02-2011, 01:02 PM
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Five nothing.

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post #722 of 747 Old 09-02-2011, 01:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve_Vai_rules View Post

jesus christ what does this have to do with audio?

my god you guys. you are worse then high school girls...

facepalm.jpeg

what's the collective age in here? 30? 40?

Hi Matt, how you doin..long time no chitchat.

Threads have a habit of going here, going there, no audio talk to be seen anywhere.

Those are often the fun ones dontcha reckon?

Anyways, the thread title is about snake oil, whicj immediately put's it into the realm of the personal. At least I have gotten SOME agreement that we all have varying views on what constitutes snake oil and so the answer very much depends on the person.

So one step into the 'what makes us tick' realm if you will.

It then asked when does it become fraud. Well, yep, you guessed it, that too will vary not only in what might constitute fraud but IF it was that at all. Some then elect themselves not only judge and jury, but executioner as well, and so some discussion about their biases and or over-reaction ensued.

In any case, by defintion, the thread title kinda excludes 'audio' as such no?

So in many ways it was destined NOT to be about audio really but more about any induvudals reactions to it.

A thread about nothing, kinda apt when one of the more prolific contributors of nothing comes from Sounfield.....

Since we are now solidly in the realm of human behaviour and actions/thoughts/feelings, don't you too not find it interesting that 'group dynamics' has raised it's head??

I do, I love it. It is about theonly thing of interest left on forums. Let's face it, who (honestly) is not bored to tears by cable threads and the digital analog divide et al??

Could just be me I'll grant, but the human factor fascinates me.
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post #723 of 747 Old 09-02-2011, 01:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by krabapple View Post

Here's some rather 'militant' subjectivist anti-ABX rhetoric, published as a new article on a 'respectable' high-end audio site -- but let's make nice to her, right? Those nasty objectivists must have driven her to it. Kumbaya, y'all.

http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue56/abx.htm

I'm sure she's on to something there. Over the years, regardless of the format that's been used (live especially), there's been a slow but steady decline in the quality of classical performances. This has been a direct result of the inclusion, dare I say it, infection, with an increasing proportion of women playing in the orchestras.

It's well known that women do not possess the physical strength, endurance, interpretative skills, or dexterity to do credit or pay proper homage to the works of Mozart, Beethoven, Strauss, and the other noted composers of fine classical music. World records in sports are set by men. Women have failed miserably when competing in men's golf tournaments. They can barely dunk in basketball while a diminutive Spud Webb has no problem whatsoever. Hence, when it comes to having to play musical instruments, especially the larger ones, they are significantly challenged. This may not be obvious to the casual listener who goes to a Carnegie Hall performance and then is off to dine on pizza, but for the discriminating audience member, it cannot be more night and day.

As to why orchestras continue to be plagued by ever increasing numbers of women, including the top and featured spots, there is one simple reason - Blind Auditions. Yes, you heard it. No longer, in most cases anyways, can a conductor visually look at who is playing an instrument. The people have to be behind screens! Moreover, not only are screens being used, but a person may have to remove their shoes so the conductor, or whomever else is responsible for doing the selection, cannot discern the sex of the person.

Ms. Goodwin would greatly benefit the audio community by throwing her weight behind the elimination of blind auditions. Only then can classical music performances regain all that has been lost.

"I've found that when you want to know the truth about someone that someone is probably the last person you should ask." - Gregory House
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post #724 of 747 Old 09-02-2011, 01:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve_Vai_rules View Post

jesus christ what does this have to do with audio?

my god you guys. you are worse then high school girls...

facepalm.jpeg

what's the collective age in here? 30? 40?


I haven't thought Steve Vai 'ruled' since the 1980s. I was in my 20s. Just sayin'
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post #725 of 747 Old 09-02-2011, 02:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post

Five nothing.

13,410 posts...

Practically nothing.

I find it funny that for someone so experienced and "in the business", they'd have free time to post/respond to this extent. IMHO, stick to your "customers" and use another forum. Trying to drum up business here an an exercise in futility. As I stated earlier, it's a "turd toss".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HhSjw...eature=related
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post #726 of 747 Old 09-02-2011, 02:24 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post

OK, your vote is clear also. You want to talk about me, and not audio. That's two.

Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post

And the third guy wanting to debate a person instead of a technical topic being proposed.

And there it is, amirm squirm.
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post #727 of 747 Old 09-02-2011, 02:38 PM
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Originally Posted by diomania View Post

And there it is, amirm squirm.

Six nothing.

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post #728 of 747 Old 09-02-2011, 02:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ratman View Post

13,410 posts...

Practically nothing.

I find it funny that for someone so experienced and "in the business", they'd have free time to post/respond to this extent. IMHO, stick to your "customers" and use another forum. Trying to drum up business here an an exercise in futility. As I stated earlier, it's a "turd toss".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HhSjw...eature=related

Another repeat vote so not counted.

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post #729 of 747 Old 09-02-2011, 02:42 PM
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BTW, if there is a shortage of technical ideas, we could discuss this just posted on WBF:



Remember, I am still keeping count as you comment on that idea .

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post #730 of 747 Old 09-02-2011, 03:07 PM
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So, start a separate thread.

"I've found that when you want to know the truth about someone that someone is probably the last person you should ask." - Gregory House
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post #731 of 747 Old 09-02-2011, 03:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

So, start a separate thread.

Seven nothing .

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post #732 of 747 Old 09-02-2011, 03:42 PM
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funny...
You have a lot to say, but have nothing to say .

13,414 nothing.
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post #733 of 747 Old 09-02-2011, 04:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post

BTW, if there is a shortage of technical ideas, we could discuss this just posted on WBF:



Remember, I am still keeping count as you comment on that idea .

No balanced inputs??? Common COTS fuses inline with speaker feeds??? Looks like maybe a crock
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post #734 of 747 Old 09-02-2011, 04:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Ratman View Post

funny...
You have a lot to say, but have nothing to say .

13,414 nothing.

Well most of the time when he actually initiated a technical discussion, it had to do with pimping HD DVD.

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post #735 of 747 Old 09-02-2011, 04:45 PM
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No balanced inputs??? Common COTS fuses inline with speaker feeds??? Looks like maybe a crock

Rats.... seven, one .

To balance the inputs, you adjust the lid.

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post #736 of 747 Old 09-02-2011, 06:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

I'm sure she's on to something there. Over the years, regardless of the format that's been used (live especially), there's been a slow but steady decline in the quality of classical performances. This has been a direct result of the inclusion, dare I say it, infection, with an increasing proportion of women playing in the orchestras.

It's well known that women do not possess the physical strength, endurance, interpretative skills, or dexterity to do credit or pay proper homage to the works of Mozart, Beethoven, Strauss, and the other noted composers of fine classical music. World records in sports are set by men. Women have failed miserably when competing in men's golf tournaments. They can barely dunk in basketball while a diminutive Spud Webb has no problem whatsoever. Hence, when it comes to having to play musical instruments, especially the larger ones, they are significantly challenged. This may not be obvious to the casual listener who goes to a Carnegie Hall performance and then is off to dine on pizza, but for the discriminating audience member, it cannot be more night and day.

As to why orchestras continue to be plagued by ever increasing numbers of women, including the top and featured spots, there is one simple reason - Blind Auditions. Yes, you heard it. No longer, in most cases anyways, can a conductor visually look at who is playing an instrument. The people have to be behind screens! Moreover, not only are screens being used, but a person may have to remove their shoes so the conductor, or whomever else is responsible for doing the selection, cannot discern the sex of the person.

Ms. Goodwin would greatly benefit the audio community by throwing her weight behind the elimination of blind auditions. Only then can classical music performances regain all that has been lost.


Anna Sophie Mutter, Martha Argerich, Akiko Suwanai, Ida Haendel, Hilary Hahn, Alina Ibragimova, Alama Moodie, Alina Pogstkina, Eileen Ivers, Gundula Krause, Petra Haden, Myra Hess, Angela Cheng, and WAY too many to mention here. If these gals can do it, what makes you thing other women can't? I can't imagine any conductor who wouldn't want them on his roster. I really hope you were kidding with the above post.

...

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post #737 of 747 Old 09-02-2011, 06:15 PM
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Originally Posted by ddgtr View Post

Anna Sophie Mutter, Martha Argerich, Akiko Suwanai, Ida Haendel, Hilary Hahn, Alina Ibragimova, Alama Moodie, Alina Pogstkina, Eileen Ivers, Gundula Krause, Petra Haden, Myra Hess, Angela Cheng, and WAY too many to mention here. If these gals can do it, what makes you thing other women can't? I can't imagine any conductor who wouldn't want them on his roster. I really hope you were kidding with the above post.

I didn't have enough sarcasm and stereotypes thrown in?!

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post #738 of 747 Old 09-02-2011, 06:20 PM
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Fair enough.

...

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post #739 of 747 Old 09-02-2011, 07:17 PM
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Originally Posted by ddgtr View Post

Fair enough.

Krab's link to the Goodwin piece in Positive Feedback rails against unsighted testing because it gives the 'wrong' results. Now, a woman wrote that so I have to wonder if she would also have strong objections with blind auditions for orchestral positions which have served to increase female representation. For that matter what does Harley think?

These blind auditions are not level matched. The performer has to interpret the piece they've been requested to play. But it's not just the sex of person auditioning that we're looking to remove from the selection process, it's a host of things. A person's race, weight, height, age, appearance, the clothing they wear, the pedigree of the instrument, nationality, and other factors can and do lead to choices not based on talent.

Overall, I found Goodwin's writing superficial, devoid of original thought, cliche filled blather.

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post #740 of 747 Old 09-02-2011, 08:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

Overall, I found Goodwin's writing superficial, devoid of original thought, cliche filled blather.

I noted she also creates the classic logic inversion strawman and tries to equate the absence of evidence as evidence of absence. I think Amir tried to pull that exact same logic inverted strawman with his locked thread “Do blind tests really prove small differences don't exist?” Just the title reveals the twisted strawman premise.

Of course it’s not a ‘proof of a non-existence’. Seeking proof of a negative is a fool’s errand and twisting statistical probability to ‘proof’ of a negative is a contrived strawman. If one could prove a negative, we might not have religion or faith.
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post #741 of 747 Old 09-02-2011, 08:34 PM
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I think she's doing it to get a few gigs doing reviews on various products that she can either get for free or reduced prices. She needs to build up her subjective street cred to get on the bling gravy train.

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post #742 of 747 Old 09-02-2011, 11:18 PM
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post #743 of 747 Old 09-07-2011, 07:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Randy Bessinger View Post

Thanks. I look forward to reading the article.

Just letting you know that the latest issue of Widescreen Review is out with the article I mentioned in there. At least I think it is out as they are handing out copies at CEDIA where I am at . Let me know what you think of it (PM or otherwise).

The article is on page 52 titled: "Digital Revolution: Did We Miss a Step? The transformation of home video distribution."

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post #744 of 747 Old 09-08-2011, 07:00 PM
 
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I just read 5 pages of this thread.

I found it a bit difficult to to sift through items that relate to the technical topic and the chaff of humor, insult and sarcasm.

More please.
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post #745 of 747 Old 09-12-2011, 12:50 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Phase700B View Post

I just read 5 pages of this thread.

I found it a bit difficult to to sift through items that relate to the technical topic and the chaff of humor, insult and sarcasm.

More please.

I've want Attorney General Holder to prosecute some of these fraudsters.

They should be put in GITMO without the right to Habeus Corpus.
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post #746 of 747 Old 09-17-2011, 09:47 AM
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"Stein calls this a working hypothesis. In other words, he hears it working, and is trying to figure out exactly what it does. To my mind, that's a legitimate approach. Did people hold off eating until they could figure out exactly how food was transformed into energy?"

I had to stop reading there. I could feel my rage building.

pc> hk 990> ascend acoustics raal towers\rythmik f15
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post #747 of 747 Old 09-29-2011, 08:28 AM
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This would make her head explode

http://www.aes.org/events/131/tutorials/?ID=2846

AES New York 2011
Tutorial T4

Thursday, October 20, 2:30 pm — 4:00 pm
T4 - MP3 Can Sound Good
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