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post #31 of 46 Old 01-06-2012, 09:27 AM
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Bruins;

I use a CD or record that I have listened to many times and has very clear sound quality. When I listen to such a disc, I can tell very quickly if certain parts of the sound are as I remember them from previous listening.

For example, on "JAZZ" by Ry Cooder, on track 2 there is a tuba that is played in its low register repeatedly. On 99 of 100 sound systems this will sound dull and poorly defined, but on a really top-quality system which is working well, the sound of that tuba will be as real-sounding as if it were right in your listening area. There are several tracks I use on this disc.

On the disc "Balalaika Favorites", the individual plucks of strings will not be lifelike but rather dull on most sound systems. They will sound realistic and lifelike when it is reproduced right. Another thing that is quite distinguishing is the sound of massed bass strings strummed together in certain passages. This will be very "muddy-sounding" on almost all systems, but a great system can reproduce it so the strings are not so much a 'mass" of sound but a rich resonant sound of individual instruments played together, including the body sound of the bass balalaikas. I will bet that most people who play this disc don't like it because it doesn't sound good at all, and dismiss it as poor recording quality; nothing could be further from the truth! It takes a really good system to hear what is really there, and hearing it on a good system is a breathtaking and spectacular sonic experience.

Another disc I use to evaluate a system is the "Hands Across the Sea" disc by the Eastman Winds. The first 8 tracks have exceptional sound quality; the other 12 were recorded 2 years earlier (in 1956) and do not sound as good. Track 2 and 3 are so good that if you play it on a good system you can close your eyes and think you are in the front row on Colorado Boulevard on Jan. 1 as the Michigan band plays right in front of you. The bass drums are absolutely powerful and resonant and the flutes and other instruments sound perfect to those of us who have heard live band music a lot.

The Nitty Gritty Dirt Band's "Will the Circle Be Unbroken; part 2", is another one with excellent lifelike recorded sound that is a reference for me. Another reference disc is Beethoven's "Mass in C" by the Monteverdi Choir. There is an old recording by Vladimir Horowitz on a Columbia/Sony SACD that is excellent as a reference.

The OPUS 3 test discs (3 of them) have some of the best recorded sound you will ever hear, and it covers, vocal, organ, piano, jazz band, and other sounds and those discs are a valuable reference. OPUS 3 is the best recording company that ever existed, in my opinion; I value their LPs and CDs like gold! You can get them online at May Audio.

One thing that gives me a strong indication that a person's sound system has problems is if they dismiss quite a few discs as having bad sound or being poorly recorded. I used to be that way. Now those discs, with VERY few exceptions, all sound very good.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruins29 View Post

commsysman, you have mentioned the same thing about amps sounding different in several threads. Can you share with us the method you use in order to do these amp comparisons?

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post #32 of 46 Old 01-06-2012, 09:39 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by syd123 View Post

much debate swirls around the audibility of differences b/w amplifiers; some believe in them, others don't. Personally, when listening to music, I don't believe I can hear a difference. Still, when I do the following, I have found there to be audible differences which may be indicative of how well the amp is engineered.
  • a) With music paused, and volume all the way up, from how close to your speaker do you hear hum/hiss?
  • b) Play music on one input, then switch to an unused input and turn volume all the way up. Can you still hear the music from the other input?
  • c) As you turn volume down, does one speaker mute before the other, or play less loudly?

Of my four amps: Bryston 3Bsst/BP25 (amp/pre combo); Peachtree Nova Integrated; NAD C375Bee Integrated, and McIntosh MA6600 Integrated, the best performer was the McIntosh, then the NAD. ..Both the Peachtree and Bryston combo exhibit quite a bit of a,b, and c.

How does your amp perform?

This post is a bad example of questionable attribution.

The first 2 tests are highly dependent on room size, room acoustics and speaker efficiency.

The final test is based on volume control tracking under highly atypical operating conditions.

The second test can also be strongly influenced by source component output voltage and source impedance.

The first test can be improved by putting a cheap passive attenuator between the preamp output and the amp input.


I find this to be a misleading, irrelevant post.
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post #33 of 46 Old 01-06-2012, 09:47 AM
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I don't know about misleading...but there is nothing there that I would use to decide if a system is an accurate reproducer of music.


************************************************************
The first test can be improved by putting a cheap passive attenuator between the preamp output and the amp input.


I find this to be a misleading, irrelevant post.[/quote]
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post #34 of 46 Old 01-06-2012, 10:47 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

This post is a bad example of questionable attribution.

The first 2 tests are highly dependent on room size, room acoustics and speaker efficiency.

The final test is based on volume control tracking under highly atypical operating conditions.

The second test can also be strongly influenced by source component output voltage and source impedance.

The first test can be improved by putting a cheap passive attenuator between the preamp output and the amp input.


I find this to be a misleading, irrelevant post.


It may be irrelevant to you, but there may be others that find these considerations to be of interest.

Look, l think all amps sound alike anyway. ..So how to chose gear? ..For me, tactile build quality, workmanship are foremost considerations. But as you (of all people) would probably agree, a 40lb chassis, 1/2" faceplates, and WBT speaker terminals, etc.. may be only illusory indicators of quality. So while others have their golden-ears to tell them whether or not their amp delivers on the promise of solid electrical engineering by listening for better imaging, or tighter bass, or silkier highs, etc…I have to look for other clues. I have to settle for more obvious things that are in some way indicative of sound electrical engineering and build quality, even if they don't impact the listening experience for most people.

As for room interaction, speaker efficiency, etc.. ..Well, at least in my case, these were held constant as all the amps I mentioned were placed into the same system/ same room spot on our living room credenza.

McIntosh MA6600 Integrated amp (for 2-ch) | Onkyo TX-NR1030 AVR (TV/ Movies) | Paradigm Sig S8 v2's (front) | Paradigm Prestige 55C (Center) | Boston Acoustics Bravo 20 speakers (rear) | 2010 Technics SL-1200mk2 Turntable w/ AudioTechnica 440mla cartridge | Mac Mini Music Server | Emotiva XDA-2 DAC | Logitech Touch SB | Samsung PN58B860 Plasma TV
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post #35 of 46 Old 01-06-2012, 10:55 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by commsysman View Post

Your comments persuade me that your values are the same as mine. I learned by personal experience years ago that Audio Research makes products that deliver both exceptional attention to these details, and incredible build quality, sound quality, and reliability. I have had their preamps for 30 years and never had the smallest quality or reliability issue with any of them.

You sound like you and AR are made for each other.

Thanks. ..I've seen AR gear and have indeed been impressed by it's build quality, though I did not test any of the three things I mentioned.

I just bought a McIntosh MA6600 Integrated which is also exceptionally well built. ..And it outperforms all my other gear in relation to these three items. ..Very little audible hiss at full-gain, no signal creep b/w channels, and channel volume seems perfectly balanced at very low listening levels

McIntosh MA6600 Integrated amp (for 2-ch) | Onkyo TX-NR1030 AVR (TV/ Movies) | Paradigm Sig S8 v2's (front) | Paradigm Prestige 55C (Center) | Boston Acoustics Bravo 20 speakers (rear) | 2010 Technics SL-1200mk2 Turntable w/ AudioTechnica 440mla cartridge | Mac Mini Music Server | Emotiva XDA-2 DAC | Logitech Touch SB | Samsung PN58B860 Plasma TV
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post #36 of 46 Old 01-06-2012, 12:22 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

@dio...

ugh...

he went on ignore long ago for some of us... be kind to those of us who have him there and don't quote him...

As you wish:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruins29 View Post

Can you share with us the method you use in order to do these amp comparisons?

Obviously, he doesn't understand what "method you use" means. Either that or he's got something to hide:
Quote:
Originally Posted by commsysman View Post

I ...
.
.
.
.
... .

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post #37 of 46 Old 01-06-2012, 01:01 PM
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^^^

thanks mate...

- chris

 

my build thread - updated 8-20-12 - new seating installed and projector isolation solution

 

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1332917/ccotenj-finally-gets-a-projector

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post #38 of 46 Old 01-06-2012, 03:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by commsysman View Post

I do have pretty high quality equipment which I worked my way into gradually over 30 years of auditioning gear to find the best-sounding I could afford, and assume high quality sound is there, but sometimes I don't notice it for a while if things are not quite up to par.

I thought you had been auditioning quipment for over 50 years?

Quote:
Originally Posted by commsysman View Post

I built my first Klipschorn speakers from a Klipsch kit in 1959, and also built an ultralinear amplifier from scratch at the same time, and I have been hearing dramatic differences between good and bad amplifiers ever since, as well as measuring performance on the test bench.

Quote:
Originally Posted by commsysman View Post

After 50 years of LISTENING to the differences between CD players and amplifiers, I know that there are dramatic differences in the distortion levels they produce, so forgive me if I am not impressed by someone who does not yet seem to have come to appreciate that reality.

After 50 years, I wonder if your hearing is any better than your memory. Also curious where you got a CD player 50 years ago.
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post #39 of 46 Old 01-06-2012, 05:45 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WilliamZX11 View Post

I thought you had been auditioning quipment for over 50 years?


After 50 years, I wonder if your hearing is any better than your memory. Also curious where you got a CD player 50 years ago.

You beat me to it William. How do we tell someone is BS-ing? Just like the posts quoted, it's all over the place.
More examples:
Quote:
Originally Posted by commsysman View Post

I have been listening to, designing, and evaluating the distortion of amplifiers in the lab for 40 years.

Quote:
Originally Posted by commsysman View Post

I designed amplifiers for a living for 30 years, and I have put hundreds of amplifier circuits through distortion tests on an analyzer,

Quote:
Originally Posted by commsysman View Post

I have been listening to, engineering, testing and building audio systems for 40 years.

Quote:
Originally Posted by commsysman View Post

Mine happen to be based on 30 years of amplifier design experience

Quote:
Originally Posted by commsysman View Post

but 40 years of listening convinced me

Quote:
Originally Posted by commsysman View Post

(but it took me 30 years of critical listening and auditioning dozens of components to get

Sorry, ccotenj. It was necessary to expose his inconsistencies.
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post #40 of 46 Old 01-06-2012, 05:59 PM
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^^^

s'ok... actually, that was amusing...

- chris

 

my build thread - updated 8-20-12 - new seating installed and projector isolation solution

 

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1332917/ccotenj-finally-gets-a-projector

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post #41 of 46 Old 01-09-2012, 03:28 AM
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Yes, I designed amplifiers for 30 years FOR A LIVING (and during OTHER YEARS years on my own when I was otherwise employed, as a college professor). Guess you couldn't figure that one out without more information. I should know that some people get confused if they are not given every single detail. Whew! Sorry I did not give you enough information.

Yes, I built equipment 50 years ago. So what? You got something against tubes?

Yes, I HAVE listened to amplifiers and CD players over the last 50 years, and obviously CD players did not exist during ALL of those years. I assumed any intelligent person would be able to figure that out so I did not make a separate statement to set that aside. I guess I should not make assumptions about people lest someone lose their way even when the path seems clear.

Further details would explain why there are no inconsistencies there, but any halfway intelligent person who thinks logically could figure that out anyway. If you want to ignore the obvious possibilities, that is up to you. In the study of logic, one learns that two statements may be different yet not inconsistent.

To claim that those statements are inconsistent shows that you did not think about them very hard, or that you simply wished to artificially create the appearance of inconsistency thru sophistry.

( Sophistry; a technique used by those who wish to appear intelligent and clever by creating confusion by the use of half-truths and false premises, rather than addressing real issues and thinking logically.)

I think that sums up your post; half-truths and assuming two things to be the same when they are not.

It would be nice if some people would address some real audio issues instead of twisting words backwards and sideways to create nonsense.



Quote:
Originally Posted by diomania View Post

You beat me to it William. How do we tell someone is BS-ing? Just like the posts quoted, it's all over the place.
More examples:







Sorry, ccotenj. It was necessary to expose his inconsistencies.

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post #42 of 46 Old 01-09-2012, 03:52 AM
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Listening to it, certainly. I guess "auditioning" can mean different things, depending on the context.

See post 41 for your answer, please.


Quote:
Originally Posted by WilliamZX11 View Post

I thought you had been auditioning quipment for over 50 years?

After 50 years, I wonder if your hearing is any better than your memory. Also curious where you got a CD player 50 years ago.

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post #43 of 46 Old 01-09-2012, 05:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by commsysman View Post

See post 41 for your answer, please.

I'll wait until you are done editing all yout posts...again. But so far, you haven't explained how your years of listning experience go from 40 to 50 and back to 30. I think you're making it all up.
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post #44 of 46 Old 01-09-2012, 06:43 AM
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I'm really flattered that you want all the details of my life story, but the book company is still telling me to hold off until the movie rights have been negotiated.

In short, though, the 50 goes back to my first sound equipment, when I was 16 (1960). The 30 refers to when I actually started hauling equipment home from dealers on a regular basis for evaluation. The 40 I think I have already explained; anyway that is when I first got my Harmon-Kardon A500 amplifier and Wharfdale W70 speakers and my own apartment (44 really...1967) and started working as an EE (from 1960 to 1967 I was in college for 2 years, worked as a technician for 3 years, and then back in college for 2 more).

I should just stay with 50, I guess, so you don't get confused...rofl.

I'll tell the publisher to reserve the first copy for you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WilliamZX11 View Post

I'll wait until you are done editing all yout posts...again. But so far, you haven't explained how your years of listning experience go from 40 to 50 and back to 30. I think you're making it all up.

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post #45 of 46 Old 01-09-2012, 09:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by commsysman View Post

I should just stay with 50, I guess, so you don't get confused...rofl.

I'll tell the publisher to reserve the first copy for you.

I'm not confused, but you appear to be. hard to keep it all straight after a while, eh?

Quote:


I built my first Klipschorn speakers from a Klipsch kit in 1959, and also built an ultralinear amplifier from scratch at the same time

Quote:


In short, though, the 50 goes back to my first sound equipment, when I was 16 (1960).

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post #46 of 46 Old 01-09-2012, 09:12 AM
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please move on

please take the high road in every post
if you see a problematic post, please do not quote it or respond to it: report it to the mods to handle
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