I am confused, how to store high SQ music and playback into 2 channel system? - Page 4 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #91 of 107 Old 01-25-2012, 11:27 AM
AVS Special Member
 
mcnarus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 6,127
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 95 Post(s)
Liked: 309
Quote:


Then instead of "realizing", some of the participants are unable to hear a difference in the non-blind test.

There's no such thing as a non-blind test. In a blind test, the question is, "Are they the same, or are they different?" In a "non-blind test," you'll know the answer to that question before you even start listening. That's not a test.

I think what you're trying to say is that people who listen sighted will sometimes conclude that two components sound the same. But so what? That doesn't mean anything. In fact, it doesn't even mean that they would be unable to distinguish the two components in a blind test!

You want to use the fact that people sometimes don't hear differences to prove that people are capable of controlling their biases. But it might be that the people who claim to hear no difference do so because of a pre-existing belief that they won't hear a difference. Bias can work both ways. And whichever way it works, you can't turn it off. You can only control for it.

If you can't explain how it works, you can't say it doesn't.—The High-End Creed

mcnarus is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #92 of 107 Old 01-25-2012, 12:25 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
arnyk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Grosse Pointe Woods, MI
Posts: 14,381
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 748 Post(s)
Liked: 1162
Quote:
Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

You are right. I was over thinking it in response to what ccotenj said, that no one can control their ability to be influenced by bias.

I suspect that there are people who can control the influence of their biases some of the time. The problem is then knowing when they are sucessfully doing that!

Quote:


But there are likely some people that, in the 2nd test, will manage to over come the influence of seeing A and B and realize that they are indistinguishable.

I've done 100's of blind tests and never seen any evidence of such a person actually existing.
arnyk is offline  
post #93 of 107 Old 01-25-2012, 02:35 PM
 
diomania's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 1,389
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

How can an opinion be anything but subjective, and thus biased

Ever heard of unbiased opinion? The process to extract it would differ.
diomania is offline  
post #94 of 107 Old 01-25-2012, 02:57 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
cel4145's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
Posts: 11,757
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 245 Post(s)
Liked: 778
Quote:
Originally Posted by diomania View Post

Ever heard of unbiased opinion? The process to extract it would differ.

"Unbiased opinion" is some ways a misnomer. One might not be subject to a particular bias which is under scrutiny and most relevant to a decision where an unbiased opinion is sought (in that sense it is unbiased), but it's still subjective, based on the sum of the experience of that individual, and thus subject to other biases that cannot be accounted for.

Your questions are answered:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

HT: Energy RC-50, RC-LCR, Veritas VS Surrounds | Dual CHT SS 18.1s | Denon AVR-888 | modified Dayton SA1000 | Antimode 8033C
Desktop: CBM-170 SE | SVS SB-1000 | Audio-GD NFB-11 | HK 3390
Headphone & Portable HE-400 | K612 Pro | HP150 | DX50 | E12
cel4145 is offline  
post #95 of 107 Old 01-25-2012, 03:00 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
cel4145's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
Posts: 11,757
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 245 Post(s)
Liked: 778
Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

I've done 100's of blind tests and never seen any evidence of such a person actually existing.

Wow. That's interesting. If that kind of research has been published, seems like it addresses the whole issue of this internal discussion in this thread.

Your questions are answered:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

HT: Energy RC-50, RC-LCR, Veritas VS Surrounds | Dual CHT SS 18.1s | Denon AVR-888 | modified Dayton SA1000 | Antimode 8033C
Desktop: CBM-170 SE | SVS SB-1000 | Audio-GD NFB-11 | HK 3390
Headphone & Portable HE-400 | K612 Pro | HP150 | DX50 | E12
cel4145 is offline  
post #96 of 107 Old 01-25-2012, 06:40 PM
 
diomania's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 1,389
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

"Unbiased opinion" is some ways a misnomer. One might not be subject to a particular bias which is under scrutiny and most relevant to a decision where an unbiased opinion is sought (in that sense it is unbiased), but it's still subjective, based on the sum of the experience of that individual, and thus subject to other biases that cannot be accounted for.

Which real life example are you talking about?
diomania is offline  
post #97 of 107 Old 01-25-2012, 07:56 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Martycool007's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 3,594
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 220 Post(s)
Liked: 159
Wow this discussion has taken a heated and unexpected turn! I must admit that I do not know enough about double blind testing and bias problems but my beautiful wife is sitting next to me reading a book, and being that she has a graduate degree in psychology and has done actual research in the psychology field for her work in the doctoral programs, I thought I would ask her about bias. According to her very short response, there is bias in just about every person on this planit in one way or another, and judging from her facial expressions, it seems to be a lot more complicated than that.
Martycool007 is online now  
post #98 of 107 Old 01-25-2012, 08:04 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
cel4145's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
Posts: 11,757
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 245 Post(s)
Liked: 778
Quote:
Originally Posted by diomania View Post

Which real life example are you talking about?

Anything and everything.

Your questions are answered:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

HT: Energy RC-50, RC-LCR, Veritas VS Surrounds | Dual CHT SS 18.1s | Denon AVR-888 | modified Dayton SA1000 | Antimode 8033C
Desktop: CBM-170 SE | SVS SB-1000 | Audio-GD NFB-11 | HK 3390
Headphone & Portable HE-400 | K612 Pro | HP150 | DX50 | E12
cel4145 is offline  
post #99 of 107 Old 01-25-2012, 10:27 PM
 
diomania's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 1,389
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

Anything and everything.

Strawman argument.
diomania is offline  
post #100 of 107 Old 01-26-2012, 04:19 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
arnyk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Grosse Pointe Woods, MI
Posts: 14,381
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 748 Post(s)
Liked: 1162
Quote:
Originally Posted by Martycool007 View Post

Wow this discussion has taken a heated and unexpected turn! I must admit that I do not know enough about double blind testing and bias problems but my beautiful wife is sitting next to me reading a book, and being that she has a graduate degree in psychology and has done actual research in the psychology field for her work in the doctoral programs, I thought I would ask her about bias. According to her very short response, there is bias in just about every person on this planit in one way or another, and judging from her facial expressions, it seems to be a lot more complicated than that.

Interesting. My wife also has a degree in psychology and had a lot to do with the statistics that we used to analyze ABX tests back in the 1970s and right up until this day. Sounds like you have a "keeper"! ;-)
arnyk is offline  
post #101 of 107 Old 01-26-2012, 04:28 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
arnyk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Grosse Pointe Woods, MI
Posts: 14,381
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 748 Post(s)
Liked: 1162
Quote:
Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

"Unbiased opinion" is some ways a misnomer.

You seem to be underestimating the problem. I would say that "unbiased opinon" is an oxymoron. Bias is so much a part of the human experience that even "unbiased fact" can be doubtful.

Quote:


One might not be subject to a particular bias which is under scrutiny and most relevant to a decision where an unbiased opinion is sought (in that sense it is unbiased), but it's still subjective, based on the sum of the experience of that individual, and thus subject to other biases that cannot be accounted for.

Bias is so much a part of the human experience that even just estimating which biases are stronger or weaker can be very challenging.

Saying that someone is not subject to a particular bias is very questionable, unless the experiment is structured so that every known or reasonably hypothesized bias is reduced to vanishing levels.

For example we invented procedures and equipment for doing audio DBTs fairly easily, only to be criticized on the grounds that we had introduced far more serious biases with those procedures and that equipment.

Once we started doing audio DBTs and got some visibility for them in the audiophile press, either coincidentally or as a result of them, audiophiles started becoming very vocal about alleged sonic colorations due to cables and switches and relays, which were inherent in the equipment we developed.

The bottom line is that hope springs eternal, and telling people that they have just bought a truckload of whole cloth is likely to be met with a lot of emotional resistance.
arnyk is offline  
post #102 of 107 Old 01-26-2012, 06:33 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
cel4145's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
Posts: 11,757
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 245 Post(s)
Liked: 778
Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

You seem to be underestimating the problem. I would say that "unbiased opinon" is an oxymoron. Bias is so much a part of the human experience that even "unbiased fact" can be doubtful.

Well, it depends on how you define "fact." If a definition of "fact" recognizes that all knowledge is socially constructed, then maybe not because the fact is representative of shared meaning. But on the other hand, from a Derridian perspective, the meanings of all words are shaped by our experiences and change subtly through ever utterance or time we read them. Reading this paragraph has changed the meaning of "fact" to anyone who reads it from what it was before this paragraph was read.

And I now I think I've crossed deep into humanities land from the scientific experimentation concepts that this thread for dealt with

Your questions are answered:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

HT: Energy RC-50, RC-LCR, Veritas VS Surrounds | Dual CHT SS 18.1s | Denon AVR-888 | modified Dayton SA1000 | Antimode 8033C
Desktop: CBM-170 SE | SVS SB-1000 | Audio-GD NFB-11 | HK 3390
Headphone & Portable HE-400 | K612 Pro | HP150 | DX50 | E12
cel4145 is offline  
post #103 of 107 Old 02-01-2012, 06:53 PM
Senior Member
 
hedrick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: NJ
Posts: 351
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
From some discussions on an Apple forum it appears that Airport Express can only handle 44.1 and 48K. In principle 44.1 is good enough for CDs. However I would prefer an actual computer, where you can get 96, and you have more control over what's going on. I normally run my computer audio feed to my receiver or DAC at 96. (I have one of each: a Mac Pro going to an Arcam receiver, which does the DAC function, and a Macbook Pro going to a Benchmark DAC-1.)

My music is almost all Apple Lossless ripped from CDs.
hedrick is offline  
post #104 of 107 Old 02-01-2012, 08:46 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
cel4145's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
Posts: 11,757
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 245 Post(s)
Liked: 778
Quote:
Originally Posted by hedrick View Post

From some discussions on an Apple forum it appears that Airport Express can only handle 44.1 and 48K. In principle 44.1 is good enough for CDs. However I would prefer an actual computer, where you can get 96, and you have more control over what's going on. I normally run my computer audio feed to my receiver or DAC at 96. (I have one of each: a Mac Pro going to an Arcam receiver, which does the DAC function, and a Macbook Pro going to a Benchmark DAC-1.)

My music is almost all Apple Lossless ripped from CDs.

Most CDs are 44.1. Best to rip to them that and then play them back at that, too. Otherwise, there can be some minor sound degradation in the conversion to 96.

Your questions are answered:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

HT: Energy RC-50, RC-LCR, Veritas VS Surrounds | Dual CHT SS 18.1s | Denon AVR-888 | modified Dayton SA1000 | Antimode 8033C
Desktop: CBM-170 SE | SVS SB-1000 | Audio-GD NFB-11 | HK 3390
Headphone & Portable HE-400 | K612 Pro | HP150 | DX50 | E12
cel4145 is offline  
post #105 of 107 Old 02-02-2012, 06:19 AM
AVS Special Member
 
mcnarus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 6,127
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 95 Post(s)
Liked: 309
Quote:


Most CDs are 44.1. Best to rip to them that and then play them back at that, too. Otherwise, there can be some minor sound degradation in the conversion to 96.

All CDs are 44.1. Unless there's something wrong with your system, upconverting them will be audibly benign, but also pointless.

If you can't explain how it works, you can't say it doesn't.—The High-End Creed

mcnarus is offline  
post #106 of 107 Old 02-02-2012, 06:45 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
cel4145's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
Posts: 11,757
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 245 Post(s)
Liked: 778
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcnarus View Post

All CDs are 44.1. Unless there's something wrong with your system, upconverting them will be audibly benign, but also pointless.

See, I've read with PCs that's not always the case, that there can be audio signal degradation depending on the setup when upconverting. Maybe Macs are different

Your questions are answered:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

HT: Energy RC-50, RC-LCR, Veritas VS Surrounds | Dual CHT SS 18.1s | Denon AVR-888 | modified Dayton SA1000 | Antimode 8033C
Desktop: CBM-170 SE | SVS SB-1000 | Audio-GD NFB-11 | HK 3390
Headphone & Portable HE-400 | K612 Pro | HP150 | DX50 | E12
cel4145 is offline  
post #107 of 107 Old 02-02-2012, 07:51 AM
AVS Special Member
 
mcnarus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 6,127
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 95 Post(s)
Liked: 309
Quote:


See, I've read with PCs that's not always the case, that there can be audio signal degradation depending on the setup when upconverting.

That's what I meant by "Unless there's something wrong with your system..."

If you can't explain how it works, you can't say it doesn't.—The High-End Creed

mcnarus is offline  
Reply 2 Channel Audio

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off