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post #1 of 46 Old 02-05-2012, 09:02 AM - Thread Starter
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Had my 2 channel system for a while now, guess I'm kinda wondering what I could do to make it better? I like how it sounds, just wondering if i could be getting more out of Von Schweikerts?

System consists of:

Von Schweikert VR-1
Marantz SR-7000
Denon 2910

Thoughts?
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post #2 of 46 Old 02-05-2012, 09:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Duds72 View Post

Had my 2 channel system for a while now, guess I'm kinda wondering what I could do to make it better? I like how it sounds, just wondering if i could be getting more out of Von Schweikerts?

System consists of:

Von Schweikert VR-1
Marantz SR-7000
Denon 2910

Thoughts?

Not trying to be rude...but do better than a $200 AVR? I think you already know the answer.

CD

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post #3 of 46 Old 02-05-2012, 09:20 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by CDLehner View Post

Not trying to be rude...but do better than a $200 AVR? I think you already know the answer.

CD

Wasn't $200 when it was purchased. Thanks for the help
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post #4 of 46 Old 02-05-2012, 09:33 AM
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You may want to add a little more definition to the bottom end. The REL T7 is a nice musical sub. This could give you a nice full range sound. The mids and top end on the VR-1's are very nice a sub could complete the picture.
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post #5 of 46 Old 02-05-2012, 09:38 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Class A View Post

You may want to add a little more definition to the bottom end. The REL T7 is a nice musical sub. This could give you a nice full range sound. The mids and top end on the VR-1's are very nice a sub could complete the picture.

Thanks Class A. The smiley face wasnt because you were laughing at my modest system was it?!

Is my "$200" avr enough for the VR-1's?
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post #6 of 46 Old 02-05-2012, 09:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Duds72 View Post

Wasn't $200 when it was purchased. Thanks for the help

OK, fair enough; again, I'm not trying to be a pain in the butt. But the fact that it's $200 now...and the fact that you didn't say "can I get more out of my SA-7000"...indicates you know you can do better than the AVR.

FWIW...at one point, I had a Marantz AVR in a small, Family Room HT set-up; and I thought it stunk for music. I'm not criticizing you; I'm criticizing the Marantz AVR for music.

So yes, I think you could do incrementally better...for somewhere in the $500-$1k range...especially if you are open to pre-owned gear (which you should be)...if your budget allows that.

You say "thanks for your help", like what...I should have a whole list of recommendations for you at this point? Anyone who would recommend something at this point...based on your OP...is only telling you what he likes; not what you're likely to really like. You've got to give some more details about you, and your listening habits...if you want some usable feedback.

CD

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post #7 of 46 Old 02-05-2012, 09:43 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by CDLehner View Post

OK, fair enough; again, I'm not trying to be a pain in the butt. But the fact that it's $200 now...and the fact that you didn't say "can I get more out of my SA-7000"...indicates you know you can do better than the AVR.

FWIW...at one point, I had a Marantz AVR in a small, Family Room HT set-up; and I thought it stunk for music. I'm not criticizing you; I'm criticizing the Marantz AVR for music.

So yes, I think you could do incrementally better...for somewhere in the $500-$1k range...especially if you are open to pre-owned gear (which you should be)...if your budget allows that.

You say "thanks for your help", like what...I should have a whole list of recommendations for you at this point? Anyone who would recommend something at this point...based on your OP...is only telling you what he likes; not what you're likely to really like. You've got to give some more details about you, and you're listening habits...if you want some usable feedback.

CD

No offense, I tend to overeact to stuff before I think about them, my apologies.

I guess I'm confused because in the amp section when I ask if adding a dedicated amp to the system, the replies usually state that it wont be worth it.

So I'm just not really sure which way to go. Not looking for a laundry list of products, just direction that i should consider.

On this system I mainly listen to stuff like Coltrane, Joe Bonamassa, Steely Dan, Porcupine Tree, Tori Amos, etc.
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post #8 of 46 Old 02-05-2012, 09:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Duds72 View Post

No offense, I tend to overeact to stuff before I think about them, my apologies.

I guess I'm confused because in the amp section when I ask if adding a dedicated amp to the system, the replies usually state that it wont be worth it.

So I'm just not really sure which way to go. Not looking for a laundry list of products, just direction that i should consider.

On this system I mainly listen to stuff like Coltrane, Joe Bonamassa, Steely Dan, Porcupine Tree, Tori Amos, etc.

Well...there are a lot of guys here who think "an amp is an amp"; and that an AVR that produces 100 wpc sounds the same as a Conrad-Johnson that produces 100 wpc (now watch...someone will make a smart comment about how it sounds better than a C-J, or what have you).

I just say decide for yourself. Do you know how to buy used equipment? It's the greatest thing since sliced bread! Well, used to be...before the biggest site for that kind of thing went and screwed everything up; but I digress.

Here's the great thing; every enthusiast has wondered...like you..."can I do better"? Don't listen to their opinion...don't listen to mine; listen for yourself. You buy something that interests you; maybe you've heard good things, read good things...people here had good things to say. You try it at a fair price; you audition it at your house, with your gear...with your ears. Like it...keep it, and be happy! Don't...you sell it yourself, and hopefully don't take a bath for the opportunity to have tried.

That's my .02

CD

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post #9 of 46 Old 02-05-2012, 10:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Duds72 View Post

Wasn't $200 when it was purchased. Thanks for the help

He didn't offer any help other than to sneer at your receiver, which he apparently dismissed solely based on price. I suspect you know that's nothing but elitist and fallacious thinking. The price new or used or your amplification does not determine how capable it is of driving your speakers.

I don't have a Marantz SR-7000, although I do have its successor, the SR-7001, and I have the predecessor to your Denon 2910 universal player, the Denon 2900. They are both in the same system at my house, and I have the Marantz driving a set of KEF Reference Twos (circa 1996, not to be confused with later Ref Two models), a matching KEF center, and some KEF surrounds. The Marantz has no trouble driving those very nice speakers in 2-channel mode, and I assure you they cost more new than your VSs did (to use CD's fallacious price=quality reasoning). It sounds great, although it's not in an ideal location in my living room. Also, the Denon universal player I have is excellent for 2-channel or multi-channel listening of CDs, DVD-As, and SACDs. The only drawback is that it lacks HDMI (yours doesn't) and thus cannot output multi-channel PCM over HDMI to the Marantz receiver (it has analog multi-channel outputs). Apparently, your Marantz lacks HDMI inputs, so you cannot output MC-PCM over HDMI either. That's no matter if you are just using it in a 2-channel system as you are.

In short, there's nothing wrong with your system. Your Denon is an excellent source for discs of all kinds (except Blu-ray) and your Marantz is fully capable of driving your Von Scheikert speakers (nice, BTW) to normal listening levels inside a home and should sound great and very musical, unless there's something wrong with it.

Unless you are looking to add Blu-ray capability or merely wish to part with some money for the sake of it, I wouldn't change anything. If you really want to improve the sound of your system, you might look into getting an acoustic measuring microphone (a good Behringer ECM8000 will cost about $55, for example, plus you'll need a preamp/phantom power supply using USB connection to a laptop PC; that's another $40), downloading the free REW software, and getting some good readings on what your speakers and room are doing to the FR and decay times of the sound waves you're generating and listening to. After doing so, you might have a better handle on what, if anything, you can do to improve the sound in your system, which of course includes the room itself. If anything, that's likely to be treating your hard surfaces like walls, ceiling, possibly floor (with an area rug perhaps), hard tables, etc. with absorption and/or diffusion panels and bass traps. Your money is likely better spent there than on new electronics, at least from a possible audible improvement perspective.
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post #10 of 46 Old 02-05-2012, 10:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Class A View Post

You may want to add a little more definition to the bottom end. The REL T7 is a nice musical sub. This could give you a nice full range sound. The mids and top end on the VR-1's are very nice a sub could complete the picture.

Agreed.
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post #11 of 46 Old 02-05-2012, 10:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Will2007 View Post

He didn't offer any help other than to sneer at your receiver, which he apparently dismissed solely based on price. I suspect you know that's nothing but elitist and fallacious thinking. The price new or used or your amplification does not determine how capable it is of driving your speakers.

I don't have a Marantz SR-7000, although I do have its successor, the SR-7001, and I have the predecessor to your Denon 2910 universal player, the Denon 2900. They are both in the same system at my house, and I have the Marantz driving a set of KEF Reference Twos (circa 1996, not to be confused with later Ref Two models), a matching KEF center, and some KEF surrounds. The Marantz has no trouble driving those very nice speakers in 2-channel mode, and I assure you they cost more new than your VSs did (to use CD's fallacious price=quality reasoning). It sounds great, although it's not in an ideal location in my living room. Also, the Denon universal player I have is excellent for 2-channel or multi-channel listening of CDs, DVD-As, and SACDs. The only drawback is that it lacks HDMI (yours doesn't) and thus cannot output multi-channel PCM over HDMI to the Marantz receiver (it has analog multi-channel outputs). Apparently, your Marantz lacks HDMI inputs, so you cannot output MC-PCM over HDMI either. That's no matter if you are just using it in a 2-channel system as you are.

In short, there's nothing wrong with your system. Your Denon is an excellent source for discs of all kinds (except Blu-ray) and your Marantz is fully capable of driving your Von Scheikert speakers (nice, BTW) to normal listening levels inside a home and should sound great and very musical, unless there's something wrong with it.

Unless you are looking to add Blu-ray capability or merely wish to part with some money for the sake of it, I wouldn't change anything. If you really want to improve the sound of your system, you might look into getting an acoustic measuring microphone (a good Behringer ECM8000 will cost about $55, for example, plus you'll need a preamp/phantom power supply using USB connection to a laptop PC; that's another $40), downloading the free REW software, and getting some good readings on what your speakers and room are doing to the FR and decay times of the sound waves you're generating and listening to. After doing so, you might have a better handle on what, if anything, you can do to improve the sound in your system, which of course includes the room itself. If anything, that's likely to be treating your hard surfaces like walls, ceiling, possibly floor (with an area rug perhaps), hard tables, etc. with absorption and/or diffusion panels and bass traps. Your money is likely better spent there than on new electronics, at least from a possible audible improvement perspective.

I'll say this, and then bow-out before this turns into another one of those threads (I've been posting so little at AVS lately, I forgot myself and where I was at ). Will is trying to paint me as asserting price=quality across the board; I'm not. Of course, there are bargains and value to be had.

But c'mon; no one goes onto the automobile forums and says "hey...can I do any better than my Ford Focus"? There is entry-level and budget gear for a reason; it is what it is...for what it can be produced for. Again...all I ever said was "hey Duds...why not try a $500-$1k Integrated for yourself, and sell it for little to no loss for the opportunity to find out what you think". Boo; how preposterous of me.

Good luck to you Duds; sounds like you're all set.

CD

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post #12 of 46 Old 02-05-2012, 10:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Will2007 View Post

He didn't offer any help other than to sneer at your receiver, which he apparently dismissed solely based on price.

Oh...and btw; no I didn't. If you had bothered to read, rather than react...you would see I said I had an SR something or other at one point...and I thought it stunk for music. I took it out of the little, Family Room system, it sat in a closet...and I sold it to a co-worker, for his modest HT, for $50.

CD

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post #13 of 46 Old 02-05-2012, 10:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Class A View Post

You may want to add a little more definition to the bottom end. The REL T7 is a nice musical sub. This could give you a nice full range sound. The mids and top end on the VR-1's are very nice a sub could complete the picture.

I agree. A sub is a good idea if you would like some extra bass for music or especially if you watch movies. Lots of bass content in movies below the -3db response on your speakers.

Although generally I think the RELs are a little pricey for what you get (I would choose a Rythmik or SVS sealed sub instead). I would recommend researching in the AVS subwoofer forum before buying a sub.

I would also think your receiver might be fine.

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post #14 of 46 Old 02-05-2012, 11:02 AM
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Originally Posted by CDLehner View Post

Oh...and btw; no I didn't. If you had bothered to read, rather than react...you would see I said I had an SR something or other at one point...and I thought it stunk for music. I took it out of the little, Family Room system, it sat in a closet...and I sold it to a co-worker, for his modest HT, for $50.

CD

Not interested in a silly debate with you, CD, but I will offer this simple rebuttal and suggest you not engage in rash assumptions.

I did not fail to read your post. At the time I began composing my reply, your first post in this thread was the OP's only response. This is exactly what you said in that first reply:

Quote:


Not trying to be rude...but do better than a $200 AVR? I think you already know the answer.

As you are no doubt aware, sometimes when posting there can be a considerable delay between the time when you begin composing the post, and when you actually submit the post. There are various possible reasons, among them the time it takes to go around looking for links to descriptions of various components discussed in the post, interruptions like phone calls, or any number of other things. In this case, I was looking about researching his components and their capabilities and looking up links for suggestions. Of course, actually writing the post takes some time too. To summarize, I did not fail to read what you wrote, CD. Your post in which you mention you previously owned a Marantz AVR was posted after I began to compose my response. I saw it only after I submitted my response.

It wasn't a failure to read on my part, nor was it an instance of reacting emotionally rather than in calm, measured tones. It was your incorrect assumption that I had an opportunity to read your later post before I posted. You know what they say when you assume...
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post #15 of 46 Old 02-05-2012, 11:09 AM
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Paraphrasing: It takes $20% to make it work good, another $80% to make it work excellent.

Am not into "you must spend" more mentality but the market is such that it is going to happen so as long as your banker knows.

Yes a sub as mentioned.

I suggest listening to some expensive IEM (In ears monitors) like the Shures. IEM removes the acoustic limitations of your environment and allows u to hear "purer" music. Once u hear these, u will be wondering how u can replicate that definition in whole-room speakers, and that will open another Pandora's box. Like said, watch your wallet!

Solution: FREE. Explanation: I will have to charge$ you.

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post #16 of 46 Old 02-05-2012, 11:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Will2007 View Post

Not interested in a silly debate with you, CD, but I will offer this simple rebuttal and suggest you not engage in rash assumptions.

I did not fail to read your post. At the time I began composing my reply, your first post in this thread was the OP's only response. This is exactly what you said in that first reply:



As you are no doubt aware, sometimes when posting there can be a considerable delay between the time when you begin composing the post, and when you actually submit the post. There are various possible reasons, among them the time it takes to go around looking for links to descriptions of various components discussed in the post, interruptions like phone calls, or any number of other things. In this case, I was looking about researching his components and their capabilities and looking up links for suggestions. Of course, actually writing the post takes some time too. To summarize, I did not fail to read what you wrote, CD. Your post in which you mention you previously owned a Marantz AVR was posted after I began to compose my response. I saw it only after I submitted my response.

It wasn't a failure to read on my part, nor was it an instance of reacting emotionally rather than in calm, measured tones. It was your incorrect assumption that I had an opportunity to read your later post before I posted. You know what they say when you assume...

Fair enough. You're entitled to your opinion, and I'm entitled to mine.

I just find it hard to believe that anyone...with a straight face...can say to the OP "no...your Marantz AVR cannot be bettered, at any price...so don't bother trying".

Just seems unnatural to me. Now...does that mean "more expensive is always better"? Of course not; nor does it mean "anything more expensive than his Marantz AVR is likely to better it". But if no one really thinks he could do better than his SR-7000...then I hope you're all lining-up to buy one for yourself?

Duds, you know how I feel; I wish you system happiness, in whatever form it takes, for you.

CD

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post #17 of 46 Old 02-05-2012, 12:34 PM
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Originally Posted by CDLehner View Post

Fair enough. You're entitled to your opinion, and I'm entitled to mine.

True. Everyone's entitled to his or her own opinion, but you're not entitled to your own facts. Facts are facts, regardless of your opinion of them or whether they happen to be inconvenient for your present worldview or belief system.

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I just find it hard to believe that anyone...with a straight face...can say to the OP "no...your Marantz AVR cannot be bettered, at any price...so don't bother trying".

You should recognize that your assertion here is a straw man argument. I did not assert in this thread or anywhere else what you incorrectly attribute to me. You don't have to be sophomoric in your rhetoric. If you wish to engage in a productive discussion here, then it would be helpful to be mature about it and debate honestly, rather than to erect straw men so that you can knock them over and declare victory.

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Just seems unnatural to me.

That's fine, and I certainly won't argue with your preference or taste. It's your opinion of course, not fact. You are stating your preference or lack of it for the Marantz AVR you had (and if I recall correctly from back when you used to discuss it here, you had the same model that I still do -- yes, CD, I actually read what others write, and I believe I remember your discussing it a good bit in a relevant Marantz thread in the Amp forum here at AVS).

The fact is that in well-conducted double blind tests listeners have been unable to distinguish between one modern comparably powered and operating correctly and within its limits (i.e., not clipping or being overdriven) amp or integrated amp or receiver and another modern amp or integrated amp or receiver under the same conditions. This is another way of saying, "Once you build a minimally competent and capable amp/integrated amp/receiver and power it sufficiently, it will be audibly transparent in your system." Please note that "audibly transparent" means it will output what is input to it, without coloration or distortion, but with amplification sufficient to drive the speakers connected to it.

Please note that the above statement is not equivalent to your strawman argument you made above, or the one often seen at AVS by the subjectivist crowd that some of us at AVS believe that "all amps sound the same." A careful, thoughtful, and informed reader should be able to tell the difference between the two statements.

Of course there are differences among amps/integrated amps/receivers. Most of them, however, are in build quality, aesthetics, features, and specifications beyond the limits of human audible perceptibility. If the amp/int/rec is built to trivially and minimally competent modern electronics standards, however, the differences among them should not be audible, except in cases in which you need to be mindful of output power capabilities and impedance loads. Apart from those considerations, it is a fact that a $300 AVR can sound audibly transparent to human beings in an appropriate system. It is also a fact that a $25,000.00 amp can sound audibly transparent in an appropriate system.

One ironic fact is that it is more likely that the $25,000 amp will audibly color or distort the signal than the $300 AVR will. Much of the high end audio industry is built around that fact. The industry also relies heavily on customers believing in differences in audibility and/or on their preferences for audible coloration and distortion (it sounds better to them with distortion than without). If everyone knew and believed the facts, however, fewer persons would spend big bucks on very expensive amps. Some persons still would, but there are some other psychological reasons for that, not ones grounded in physical facts about human audibility and our ability to distinguish among electronics components or parts within them.

Quote:


Now...does that mean "more expensive is always better"? Of course not; nor does it mean "anything more expensive than his Marantz AVR is likely to better it". But if no one really thinks he could do better than his SR-7000...then I hope you're all lining-up to buy one for yourself?

Duds, you know how I feel; I wish you system happiness, in whatever form it takes, for you.

CD

My first post to the OP in this thread was suggesting that perhaps his money would be better spent measuring his speaker/room interaction and seeing if he has any glaring problems he can address with affordable room treatments, rather than on new electronics. If his present gear is operating correctly and not malfunctioning, spending more money on newer electronics in an attempt to get "better sound" is likely to be an exercise in futility. He'll be chasing his tail.

Addressing possible deficiencies in his speaker/room frequency response curves and energy time curves is much more likely to yield audible results. It's more work than simply shopping for and buying new electronics, and it's not as sexy, but it is more likely to result in an audible difference in his present system if it is working already. That's not just my opinion.

I stand by my first suggestion to the OP, with the caveat that if he really feels something is lacking in his system right now and he doesn't want to bother to measure his system's acoustic response, then adding a decent and appropriately sized and powered sub for his room would be his best bet, in my opinion.
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post #18 of 46 Old 02-05-2012, 12:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Duds72 View Post

Had my 2 channel system for a while now, guess I'm kinda wondering what I could do to make it better? I like how it sounds, just wondering if i could be getting more out of Von Schweikerts?

System consists of:

Von Schweikert VR-1
Marantz SR-7000
Denon 2910

Thoughts?

1. Better speaker and listener placement. Speakers at least 4' off the front wall in an 8' equilateral triangle with the listening position is a nice starting point. Move everything fore and aft (even 6" can make a huge difference) to avoid bass nulls as needed. Try for an approximately symmetric location with respect to room boundaries (but being too exact can get you into a bass null you might want to move everything 6" to one side to avoid).

2. Sub-woofer with an electronic cross-over (try 120Hz to start with since the 6.5" drivers lack the displacement for clean distortion free bass)

3. Better speakers.
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post #19 of 46 Old 02-05-2012, 12:41 PM
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For a 2ch system, I wouldn't use a multichannel AVR either. A decent 2ch per-amp and poweramp or a 2ch integrated should do a better job than an AVR for 2ch.
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post #20 of 46 Old 02-05-2012, 01:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Will2007 View Post

True. Everyone's entitled to his or her own opinion, but you're not entitled to your own facts. Facts are facts, regardless of your opinion of them or whether they happen to be inconvenient for your present worldview or belief system.



You should recognize that your assertion here is a straw man argument. I did not assert in this thread or anywhere else what you incorrectly attribute to me. You don't have to be sophomoric in your rhetoric. If you wish to engage in a productive discussion here, then it would be helpful to be mature about it and debate honestly, rather than to erect straw men so that you can knock them over and declare victory.



That's fine, and I certainly won't argue with your preference or taste. It's your opinion of course, not fact. You are stating your preference or lack of it for the Marantz AVR you had (and if I recall correctly from back when you used to discuss it here, you had the same model that I still do -- yes, CD, I actually read what others write, and I believe I remember your discussing it a good bit in a relevant Marantz thread in the Amp forum here at AVS).

The fact is that in well-conducted double blind tests listeners have been unable to distinguish between one modern comparably powered and operating correctly and within its limits (i.e., not clipping or being overdriven) amp or integrated amp or receiver and another modern amp or integrated amp or receiver under the same conditions. This is another way of saying, "Once you build a minimally competent and capable amp/integrated amp/receiver and power it sufficiently, it will be audibly transparent in your system." Please note that "audibly transparent" means it will output what is input to it, without coloration or distortion, but with amplification sufficient to drive the speakers connected to it.

Please note that the above statement is not equivalent to your strawman argument you made above, or the one often seen at AVS by the subjectivist crowd that some of us at AVS believe that "all amps sound the same." A careful, thoughtful, and informed reader should be able to tell the difference between the two statements.

Of course there are differences among amps/integrated amps/receivers. Most of them, however, are in build quality, aesthetics, features, and specifications beyond the limits of human audible perceptibility. If the amp/int/rec is built to trivially and minimally competent modern electronics standards, however, the differences among them should not be audible, except in cases in which you need to be mindful of output power capabilities and impedance loads. Apart from those considerations, it is a fact that a $300 AVR can sound audibly transparent to human beings in an appropriate system. It is also a fact that a $25,000.00 amp can sound audibly transparent in an appropriate system.

One ironic fact is that it is more likely that the $25,000 amp will audibly color or distort the signal than the $300 AVR will. Much of the high end audio industry is built around that fact. The industry also relies heavily on customers believing in differences in audibility and/or on their preferences for audible coloration and distortion (it sounds better to them with distortion than without). If everyone knew and believed the facts, however, fewer persons would spend big bucks on very expensive amps. Some persons still would, but there are some other psychological reasons for that, not ones grounded in physical facts about human audibility and our ability to distinguish among electronics components or parts within them.



My first post to the OP in this thread was suggesting that perhaps his money would be better spent measuring his speaker/room interaction and seeing if he has any glaring problems he can address with affordable room treatments, rather than on new electronics. If his present gear is operating correctly and not malfunctioning, spending more money on newer electronics in an attempt to get "better sound" is likely to be an exercise in futility. He'll be chasing his tail.

Addressing possible deficiencies in his speaker/room frequency response curves and energy time curves is much more likely to yield audible results. It's more work than simply shopping for and buying new electronics, and it's not as sexy, but it is more likely to result in an audible difference in his present system if it is working already. That's not just my opinion.

I stand by my first suggestion to the OP, with the caveat that if he really feels something is lacking in his system right now and he doesn't want to bother to measure his system's acoustic response, then adding a decent and appropriately sized and powered sub for his room would be his best bet, in my opinion.

And this is where the "other side" doesn't care to engage in "silly debate" (is this the kind of thing you meant?)...and you declare victory, by their silence.

Say "straw man", straw man, straw man...as many times as you like; this is as much deflection away from the simple truth as anything.

Fact: OP says "what [could I] do to make it better"?

Fact: I said "I think there are better amps than the SR-7000"

Are there better amps than the SR-7000? Then where did I get off the rails?

CD

Music is a moral law. It gives soul to the universe, wings to the mind, flight to the imagination, and charm and gaiety to life and to everything. -Plato
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post #21 of 46 Old 02-05-2012, 01:16 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kiwi2 View Post

A decent 2ch per-amp and poweramp or a 2ch integrated should do a better job than an AVR for 2ch.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CDLehner View Post

Are there better amps than the SR-7000?

What is this "better" thing you guys are talking about? In what way is this when it comes to amps?
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post #22 of 46 Old 02-05-2012, 01:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Duds72 View Post

Thanks Class A. The smiley face wasnt because you were laughing at my modest system was it?!

Is my "$200" avr enough for the VR-1's?

Yes provided you're not clipping it.
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post #23 of 46 Old 02-05-2012, 01:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Duds72 View Post

Thanks Class A. The smiley face wasnt because you were laughing at my modest system was it?!

Is my "$200" avr enough for the VR-1's?

Mr. smiley face just represents enjoying the hobby and the music. From a power point perspective the VR-1's are fairly easy to drive. But I would like to know what it is specifically that you find lacking in the system. I assumed a sub would be a good solution but maybe the top end sounds hard or the mids are a bit bloated. Also what are you willing to spend and is this strictly going to be a 2-channel setup. You have some VG speakers as a foundation so the rest of the puzzle should be easy to solve.
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post #24 of 46 Old 02-05-2012, 02:02 PM
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Originally Posted by diomania View Post

What is this "better" thing you guys are talking about? In what way is this when it comes to amps?

More dedicated and optimised circuitry for 2ch only and not unnecessary components like screen displays and such that can introduce electrical noise.

I found this out for myself after using a Yamaha AVR for 2ch music playback for a while and thinking how underwhelming and flat 2ch is compared to multichannel surround sound playback... until I got a 2ch pre-amp and poweramp that is.

2ch music playback through the 2ch pre-amp and poweramp had a more 3D and wider soundstage and more dynamic punch to it. It wasn't that far behind multichannel playback in the terms of soundstageing.
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post #25 of 46 Old 02-05-2012, 02:04 PM
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Originally Posted by diomania View Post

What is this "better" thing you guys are talking about? In what way is this when it comes to amps?

Right; "better" is the wrong word...but don't get too hung-up on semantics. An amp that the OP thinks sounds more to his liking.

Sheesh; gotta choose your words very carefully around here. Maybe I should have my attorney review my next post.

CD

Music is a moral law. It gives soul to the universe, wings to the mind, flight to the imagination, and charm and gaiety to life and to everything. -Plato
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post #26 of 46 Old 02-05-2012, 02:13 PM
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Originally Posted by CDLehner View Post

Right; "better" is the wrong word...but don't get too hung-up on semantics. An amp that the OP thinks sounds more to his liking.

Sheesh; gotta choose your words very carefully around here. Maybe I should have my attorney review my next post.

CD

I might also suggest you learn when not to argue with an attorney over what well-defined rhetorical terms like "straw man argument" or "facts" mean. You could look them up. It would be cheaper than having your own attorney review your posts.
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post #27 of 46 Old 02-05-2012, 02:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Will2007 View Post

I might also suggest you learn when not to argue with an attorney over what well-defined rhetorical terms like "straw man argument" or "facts" mean. You could look them up. It would be cheaper than having your own attorney review your posts.

I took my Freshman Logic class, like anyone else; and even if I hadn't, I can Google with the best of them. It's not that I don't understand what you're trying to accuse me of...counselor; it's just that you're wrong.

See...K.I.S.S.

CD

Music is a moral law. It gives soul to the universe, wings to the mind, flight to the imagination, and charm and gaiety to life and to everything. -Plato
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post #28 of 46 Old 02-05-2012, 02:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Duds72 View Post

Had my 2 channel system for a while now, guess I'm kinda wondering what I could do to make it better? I like how it sounds, just wondering if i could be getting more out of Von Schweikerts?

System consists of:

Von Schweikert VR-1
Marantz SR-7000
Denon 2910

Thoughts?

Possibly improve placement - try it, its free!

Possibly upgrade room acoustics, depending on how they are now

Speaker setup using modern techniques including measurements

Subwoofer
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post #29 of 46 Old 02-05-2012, 03:22 PM
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^^^^^+1000.

Agree with Drew, Class A, diomania, cel, and arny.

It sounds like CD and kiwi think the solution to your "problem," assuming you even have one, lies in spending additional money on replacing electronics. Your electronics you describe appear to be perfectly capable and suitable for what you want, and you report that they are working. The rest of us, as far as I can tell, are suggesting that doing so is likely to result in nothing but lightening your wallet and leaving you frustrated in a fruitless search for "better" sound. In other words, your electronics are not the problem, assuming you have one.

Concentrate on things which can make audible improvements. Probably the single greatest thing suggested so far that can make a huge difference in the perceived quality (a/k/a as making it sound "better" to you) is experimenting with speaker placement. As others have noted in this thread, even relatively small movements fore and aft or side to side, on the order of a few inches even, can render big changes in the quality of the sound you hear at your listening position. Some of it is trial and error, but the basics of the principles regarding speaker placement and their effects have already been examined and explained in terms much better than I could do.

Here is but one of many similar links explaining some of the basics of how various changes to speaker placement and orientation can affect the sound you hear at your listening position. In my opinion, it's worth reading more than once.

http://www.chesky.com/core/body_libr...cfm?newsid=141

Good luck. Do what you deem best, but I would suggest you are getting conflicting advice in this thread. One school is suggesting you buy new electronics. The other is suggesting possibly measuring room response and experimenting with speaker placement and possibly adding a subwoofer. It's up to you to investigate and decide what is best for you.
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post #30 of 46 Old 02-05-2012, 04:05 PM
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How do you know he hasn't already voiced his system to the room?

He may have already gone through all of that.

Regardless, I don't think listening to 2ch music through a AVR is giving 2ch a fair shot.

There are plenty of pre-amp and amp options available in the secondhand market, so it needn't be about spending lots of money. It's just covering the basic foundations.
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