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Old 03-16-2012, 10:07 AM
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di-

When I said "in my post", you and I both know I was referring to my current post in this thread.

If you have to go back several months to find a reference that you can use in a pathetic attempt to try to make a point, that is really pretty stupid, don't you think?

I quit mentioning the company in question a long time ago, so just what is your objective in flogging this dead horse?
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Old 03-16-2012, 10:26 AM
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As any fool knows, selectively quoting information out of context as you repeatedly do in a cynical attempt to distort the truth and mislead people is a tactic well-known to politicians and other liars.

The question that comes to mind is whether people that do this actually have some thought-out objective in mind, or whether they just do it in a spirit of pure meanness and spite.

In any case, your repeated attempts to harass and intimidate me have not worked and will never work, because I recognize you and your tactics for what they are; mean-spirited and ineffectual.


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Originally Posted by bfreedma View Post

Suggesting that people look at your posting history is a positive contribution to this thread. The amount of misinformation you post as fact is astounding.

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Old 03-16-2012, 10:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by commsysman View Post

As any fool knows, selectively quoting information out of context as you repeatedly do in a cynical attempt to distort the truth and mislead people is a tactic well-known to politicians and other liars.

The question that comes to mind is whether people that do this actually have some thought-out objective in mind, or whether they just do it in a spirit of pure meanness and spite.

In any case, your repeated attempts to harass and intimidate me have not worked and will never work, because I recognize you and your tactics for what they are; mean-spirited and ineffectual.

We could solve this problem quickly.

You quit posting misinformation and the numerous members who correct you will stop doing so. No matter how much you want to turn everything into a personal attack, this is about ensuring information that's presented on this forum is accurate, and where not accurate, is noted.

Do you ever stop and think why you have conflict with so many here?
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Old 03-16-2012, 10:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by walbert View Post

VC level tells us nothing about anything...
http://audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=58829

Level-matching is important.

The actual difference between those two units, assuming they both lived up to their specs, is not audible (in terms of output level) - 20W is nothing.

VC does mean something when you have it set to 0db. If its an 80w unit then you're at 80w output. And I totally agree that in the real world 20w means nothing. But when I had the Citation at -18db (which would be <2w) the measured SPL at the seat was the same as when the Denon was at max output. So that would suggest there had to be a much greater difference, as in the HK was >100w and the Denon <80w.
So there was something not right. Maybe the Denon's phono pre-amp was the problem, compared to the Citation 11 pre-amp.

I was only addressing/agreeing with the statement that not all stereo amps/receivers are good.


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One thing I would add (And this is not in reply to 4DHD - this is general advice) - if you go with a stereo/surround processor/preamp/receiver/thing that lacks any real bass management (like the HK3490), it is less than ideal; you want some sort of crossover before your amplifiers. And the subwoofer's LPF is generally not suitable by itself.

Because of that, and some other factors (like cost and functionality), I still suggest an AV receiver - it'll save money in the long run, and provide more than enough juice to peel the paint off the walls. It'll also have some pretty nice features for making things sound better (in ways that we can measure) like room adjustment/EQ, time alignment, channel level settings (vs a crude balance control), bass management, etc.

Which is why I suggested the HK990, as it has BM, EQ, dual sub outs. And it doubles down the power for 4u. Which is what I would want if I were to buy 4u speakers.
I can't think of any AVRs that double power to 4u load.
If it were not for the fact my Parasound P7 is a 7 channel pre-amp, I would consider the HK990 to be a better value, as it does offer 2 sub outs and has EQ, which the P7 does not.
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Old 03-16-2012, 10:57 AM
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I posted only once in this thread; Post #83 (except in response to some irrelevant nonsense posted by a couple of people).

You have repeatedly said I post misinformation, yet this is a thread about a specific subject, which I tried to address the best I could. As far as I can tell, no one, including you, has actually identified any "misinformation" in that post, so everything you have said is totally irrelevant to this thread.

Essentially, the only thing you do is to repeatedly call me a liar, without engaging in the current thread in any way. You call that constructive?

Despite any actual specifics, you continue to claim that I post "misinformation". This tactic is exactly like old Joseph McCarthy and his claims that everyone was a liar and a communist except him. We know who the liar really was, don't we?

If you can't comment on the current thread and the current posts, why are you even here if not to be vindictive and make unfounded attacks on people? I don't think anyone cares about how many posts you can dredge up from months ago that have nothing to do with this thread. You are just like a politician who has no effective point to make so he brings up something his opponent may have allegedly done 25 years ago.

I do not have a "conflict" with anyone here. If someone wants to jump into a thread and make ridiculous irrelevant accusations they are a mere nuisance. I do not have "conflicts" with people who have nothing of substance to offer to a discussion. I would have to lower myself to their level for that to happen.




Quote:
Originally Posted by bfreedma View Post

We could solve this problem quickly.

You quit posting misinformation and the numerous members who correct you will stop doing so. No matter how much you want to turn everything into a personal attack, this is about ensuring information that's presented on this forum is accurate, and where not accurate, is noted.

Do you ever stop and think why you have conflict with so many here?

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Old 03-16-2012, 11:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by commsysman View Post

As any fool knows, selectively quoting information out of context as you repeatedly do in a cynical attempt to distort the truth and mislead people is a tactic well-known to politicians and other liars.

The question that comes to mind is whether people that do this actually have some thought-out objective in mind, or whether they just do it in a spirit of pure meanness and spite.

In any case, your repeated attempts to harass and intimidate me have not worked and will never work, because I recognize you and your tactics for what they are; mean-spirited and ineffectual.

Let me see if I understand this right. You are complaining about "meanness," "spite," and "mean-spirited," and yet you imply bfreedma to be a "fool" in the very first sentence of this post? Some double standard.

Maybe I'm wrong. The other way to read that first sentence is that you understand yourself to be a fool, so that even you understand the rest of that statement. LOL

Your questions are answered: Speaker FAQ
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Headphone & Portable HE-400 | K612 Pro | HP150 | DX50 | E12
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Old 03-16-2012, 11:55 AM
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One thing is for sure; your post has nothing to do with this thread, so why are you even here? That's a rhetorical question, of course. The only possible reason for you to post here is your usual practice of running around bashing people rather than addressing the subject of the thread.

You are indeed wrong on both counts, as anyone who can read the English language correctly could tell you.

Your twisted attempt at interpretation bears no resemblance to my statement.


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Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post



Maybe I'm wrong.


LOL

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Old 03-16-2012, 11:55 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

Let me see if I understand this right. You are complaining about "meanness," "spite," and "mean-spirited," and yet you imply bfreedma to be a "fool" in the very first sentence of this post? Some double standard.

Maybe I'm wrong. The other way to read that first sentence is that you understand yourself to be a fool, so that even you understand the rest of that statement. LOL

Have you ever seen any forum member who edits his / her post that often? I haven't and it's quite telling of something.
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Old 03-16-2012, 12:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by commsysman View Post

One thing is for sure; your post has nothing to do with this thread, so why are you even here? That's a rhetorical question, of course. The only possible reason for you to post here is your usual practice of running around bashing people rather than addressing the subject of the thread.

My posting history proves the contrary. Well, other than I do call you out for the same reasons that others do.

However, I will refrain from doing so in the future and merely put in a moderation complaint when I see a post like that, and I would encourage others to do the same. It's clear that people pointing out problems to you publicly on the forum is simply not working; you are not listening.

Your questions are answered: Speaker FAQ
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Old 03-16-2012, 12:26 PM
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Here's what I would do:

This Amp:
http://shop.emotiva.com/collections/.../products/xpa2
$799 free shipping

This used as a Preamp:
has really great and up-to-date room EQ, many inputs, and great compatibility
http://www.accessories4less.com/make...AirPlay/1.html

If you watch a single blu-ray movie you owe it to yourself to have something that will accept HDMI so you can get the lossless audio from them.

Cables from Blue Jeans:
Not cheap but not overly expensive
~$200 Depending on what you need.

Speakers:
Philharmonic 3:
http://philharmonicaudio.com/philharmonic3.html
$3000
Salk Songtower Supercharged: $3500
http://www.salksound.com/songtower%2...%20pricing.htm
Or-=-=-
Vapor Breeze: $1250
http://www.vaporsound.com/#all
+ 2 of these subs: $1400
http://shop.emotiva.com/collections/...roducts/xref12

Or regular Salk songtowers...

(my opinion) You are best served spending most of your money on good speakers. Speakers > Preamp/processor + AMP > Cables. Even the $800 amp is probably overkill.

I think that mainstream commercial offerings can be really good but can also have reduced value, which is why I linked to the Philharmonic and Salk speakers. Yes, the larger companies do have economy of scale on their side, but they also have learned to engineer not only to improve sound, but to maximize profit. I recently took a look at the construction quality and crossover components in a $2000 Paradigm Studio 60 speaker pair, and it's not that great. Costs them probably $500 to make, and Paradigms are considered a "good value" by many. And world-famous speaker designer Danny Richie said when he tested them they had phase tracking issues.

Oh, and if money is tight, I have the Emotiva a100x Amplifier which was $220 shipped. Pretty good- 50 honest to goodness watts. I have efficient speakers but I can drive them to "very loud" levels with <50% volume.
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Old 03-16-2012, 01:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bfreedma View Post

Do you ever stop and think why you have conflict with so many here?

Commsysman-I'm not trying to be mean-spirited or jump on the dogpile, but I'd like to hear your answer to the above question.

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Old 03-16-2012, 01:38 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djkest View Post

Here's what I would do:

This Amp:
http://shop.emotiva.com/collections/.../products/xpa2
$799 free shipping

This used as a Preamp:
has really great and up-to-date room EQ, many inputs, and great compatibility
http://www.accessories4less.com/make...AirPlay/1.html

If you watch a single blu-ray movie you owe it to yourself to have something that will accept HDMI so you can get the lossless audio from them.

Cables from Blue Jeans:
Not cheap but not overly expensive
~$200 Depending on what you need.

Speakers:
Philharmonic 3:
http://philharmonicaudio.com/philharmonic3.html
$3000
Salk Songtower Supercharged: $3500
http://www.salksound.com/songtower%2...%20pricing.htm
Or-=-=-
Vapor Breeze: $1250
http://www.vaporsound.com/#all
+ 2 of these subs: $1400
http://shop.emotiva.com/collections/...roducts/xref12

Or regular Salk songtowers...

(my opinion) You are best served spending most of your money on good speakers. Speakers > Preamp/processor + AMP > Cables. Even the $800 amp is probably overkill.

I think that mainstream commercial offerings can be really good but can also have reduced value, which is why I linked to the Philharmonic and Salk speakers. Yes, the larger companies do have economy of scale on their side, but they also have learned to engineer not only to improve sound, but to maximize profit. I recently took a look at the construction quality and crossover components in a $2000 Paradigm Studio 60 speaker pair, and it's not that great. Costs them probably $500 to make, and Paradigms are considered a "good value" by many. And world-famous speaker designer Danny Richie said when he tested them they had phase tracking issues.

Oh, and if money is tight, I have the Emotiva a100x Amplifier which was $220 shipped. Pretty good- 50 honest to goodness watts. I have efficient speakers but I can drive them to "very loud" levels with <50% volume.

Thanks, these are all helpful recommendations. I'm starting to lean more toward a 2 bookshelf / 2 sub setup as this will be used a lot for parties and I think I will require the additional bass, esp. given room size.

On a side note, do you guys mind starting a new thread for the arguing? I keep getting emails that the thread is updated and I get pumped to read some new advice but then its not related to the post. Thanks again to everyone for the help so far
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Old 03-16-2012, 01:55 PM
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^^^

if you do go that direction, i would strongly recommend a xt32 equipped avr...

keep in mind that dual subs won't give you "more bass"*... the objective of multiple subs is to smooth the bass response across multiple seating positions by placing them correctly in different parts of the room... and keep in mind that those places are almost never where the main speakers "want" to be...

* unless they are co-located, which in theory gives you 6db more, which is more easily accomplished with a bigger badder sub...

- chris

 

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Old 03-16-2012, 05:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chburrus View Post

on a side note, do you guys mind starting a new thread for the arguing? I keep getting emails that the thread is updated and i get pumped to read some new advice but then its not related to the post. Thanks again to everyone for the help so far

x2

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Old 03-16-2012, 06:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4DHD View Post

VC does mean something when you have it set to 0db. If its an 80w unit then you're at 80w output.

It does not mean it's putting out 80W, all it means is that the attenuator is set to 0dB. Overall gain structure and signal level determine the instantaneous power out. And, you definitely cannot compare a level setting on one model/brand unit and another - back to gain structure which will differ.
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Old 03-16-2012, 07:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A9X-308 View Post

It does not mean it's putting out 80W, all it means is that the attenuator is set to 0dB. Overall gain structure and signal level determine the instantaneous power out. And, you definitely cannot compare a level setting on one model/brand unit and another - back to gain structure which will differ.

Thank you!

4DHD: 0 dB does not mean 80W output. At all. Did this receiver go "over" 0 dB? (My current Marantz, to give you an example, goes up to something like +25 dB; 0 dB is not "full open") If yes, then it's not even zero attenuation, if no, then it is zero attenuation.

Even if it is zero attenuation, you aren't feeding a 0.0 dB signal into it.

You cannot compare things as you have, it means nothing, and is inaccurate. Like I said, you aren't telling us anything that can be repeated or verified. You can't even compare levels on the same equipment in different rooms with different speakers. It tells us nothing, because you've got different gain structures, different media (or source machines), etc. Like I said, too many uncontrolled variables.

Regarding the HK990 - it's a fine unit, but you can get the same performance for half the price from an AVR. Who cares if it "doubles down" into 4ohms; you aren't using more than 1-2W continuous with the vast majority of speakers in the vast majority of rooms anyways - maybe 10-20W peak with most modern music.
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Old 03-16-2012, 08:06 PM
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As I've read through this thread I'm surprised at the number of posters who are of the opinion that electronics aren't important. Maybe I'm misinterpreting something, but that's what many seem to be saying. In my experience, electronics can make an astounding difference in what you hear when listening to music. BUT, different strokes for different folks. In this case, since your budget is limited, I would spend the majority of it on speakers but I would recommend throwing out the idea that electronics aren't important. I'll duck now to avoid the flames that are sure to follow...

If there's another thing that should be obvious from this thread, it's that there are a lot of different quality speaker options out there and people have differing opinions. Why? Well, because we're different and we hear things differently. If I were buying on a 6K budget, I might be tempted to do something like a pair of Totem Signature 1s on stands along with a Totem Storm sub. Then, maybe a NAD C 390DD to drive them. There's something about the NAD and Totem sound that works really well for me.
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Old 03-16-2012, 08:10 PM
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^^^

no, you aren't misinterpreting at all...

dsp, otoh, IS important... but taking that out of the equation, competent (i.e. audibly not different) electronics start at a very modest price...

that does not mean you can take product a and product b and drive product a out of spec and expect them to be the same...

controlled testing consistently proves this...

edit: very true on speakers...

- chris

 

my build thread - updated 8-20-12 - new seating installed and projector isolation solution

 

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1332917/ccotenj-finally-gets-a-projector

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Old 03-16-2012, 08:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

^^^

no, you aren't misinterpreting at all...

dsp, otoh, IS important... but taking that out of the equation, competent (i.e. audibly not different) electronics start at a very modest price...

that does not mean you can take product a and product b and drive product a out of spec and expect them to be the same...

controlled testing consistently proves this...

edit: very true on speakers...

Not trying to hijack the thread, but are you saying that 1-2k priced electronics are NOT audibly different? Sorry, I might be kind of slow...
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Old 03-16-2012, 08:36 PM
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While I do like what Audyssey does for HT, I am not at all a fan of what it does for stereo listening. I have yet to hear stereo sound with Audyssey engaged where it did not disrupt the imaging and soundstage compared to with it disabled.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence

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Old 03-16-2012, 10:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ddave12000 View Post

Not trying to hijack the thread, but are you saying that 1-2k priced electronics are NOT audibly different? Sorry, I might be kind of slow...

Yeah, that's roughly what you're getting. I know, it's a shock - like going down the rabbit hole for the first time. No reason to get ruffled about it though - nobody is attacking you by disagreeing with you.

The point is that electronics really don't matter, and this has been substantiated with actual data, not anecdotal "beliefs" - this isn't a religious debate after all. If you take level mismatch and any sort of intentional tone-modification out of the equation (like DSP, or any hard-set EQs or things like that), you're going to get a lot of the same across the board; and it doesn't have to "start" at $1k. It starts at a lot lower price point. Maybe a few hundred dollars, maybe less than a hundred, depending on what you're talking about.

You can disagree all you want, and you can tell me that your boutique, name-brand equipment is "better" all you want, but the science disagrees with you. If it didn't, I'm pretty sure we'd all be on that bandwagon, and spending our money accordingly.

In terms of what matters "most" for sound quality, when dealing with speakers, the room/acoustic environment is king. You will introduce more non-linearity, distortion, artefacts, etc with your room (any room, any location) than any piece of properly functioning electronics could ever hope to create. Your speakers are the next biggest problem; a lot of "gearophiles" worry about 0.005% THD - try 10%!

Then after all of that is dealt with, you can "worry" about the electronics, and for the most part, they're all going to be transparent (As in you can't reliably pick them apart with any confidence in a properly controlled test). So it becomes a moot point, and it's easier to just generalize them out of the picture and put the time and energy into dealing with acoustics and speakers assuming your amplifier won't blow up driving whatever speakers you pick, and your player equipment is easy enough to use (for example, those 300 disc DVD changers are a great convenience!).

Consider this step one:
http://www.roger-russell.com/truth/truth.htm

Oh, and just because it'll let me be edgy:
I consider NAD to be incredibly, ridiculously, overpriced!
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Old 03-17-2012, 12:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A9X-308 View Post

It does not mean it's putting out 80W, all it means is that the attenuator is set to 0dB. Overall gain structure and signal level determine the instantaneous power out. And, you definitely cannot compare a level setting on one model/brand unit and another - back to gain structure which will differ.

I mentioned that no way could it be putting out 80w. Only that it should, as it was rated. As I recall it went to +5 so that -1db should have been 20w. But I very much doubt it was. Meaning Denon's 80w rating had to be bogus.
The fact is the Citation had much more headroom. And to get 75db measured at the seat, required the Citation's LEDs lit to its -18db level = <2w.
For the Denon, that same 75db required about -1db. The Denon just did not have the chops.
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Old 03-17-2012, 12:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrlittlejeans View Post

While I do like what Audyssey does for HT, I am not at all a fan of what it does for stereo listening. I have yet to hear stereo sound with Audyssey engaged where it did not disrupt the imaging and soundstage compared to with it disabled.

There is something to be said to listening to stereo music in pure analog.
That is why I like my P7 pre-amp. Only the controls are digital, with the signal path pure analog.
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Old 03-17-2012, 05:53 AM
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Yeah, that's roughly what you're getting. I know, it's a shock - like going down the rabbit hole for the first time. No reason to get ruffled about it though - nobody is attacking you by disagreeing with you.

The point is that electronics really don't matter, and this has been substantiated with actual data, not anecdotal "beliefs" - this isn't a religious debate after all. If you take level mismatch and any sort of intentional tone-modification out of the equation (like DSP, or any hard-set EQs or things like that), you're going to get a lot of the same across the board; and it doesn't have to "start" at $1k. It starts at a lot lower price point. Maybe a few hundred dollars, maybe less than a hundred, depending on what you're talking about.

You can disagree all you want, and you can tell me that your boutique, name-brand equipment is "better" all you want, but the science disagrees with you. If it didn't, I'm pretty sure we'd all be on that bandwagon, and spending our money accordingly.

In terms of what matters "most" for sound quality, when dealing with speakers, the room/acoustic environment is king. You will introduce more non-linearity, distortion, artefacts, etc with your room (any room, any location) than any piece of properly functioning electronics could ever hope to create. Your speakers are the next biggest problem; a lot of "gearophiles" worry about 0.005% THD - try 10%!

Then after all of that is dealt with, you can "worry" about the electronics, and for the most part, they're all going to be transparent (As in you can't reliably pick them apart with any confidence in a properly controlled test). So it becomes a moot point, and it's easier to just generalize them out of the picture and put the time and energy into dealing with acoustics and speakers assuming your amplifier won't blow up driving whatever speakers you pick, and your player equipment is easy enough to use (for example, those 300 disc DVD changers are a great convenience!).

Consider this step one:
http://www.roger-russell.com/truth/truth.htm

Oh, and just because it'll let me be edgy:
I consider NAD to be incredibly, ridiculously, overpriced!

Thumbs up on the room being king. I have a pair of 836v's tucked away in corner between a set of sliding glass doors on one side and a set of windows on the other. As nice as my speakers are/can be, I might as well have my one and four year old stand up and recite the tv's dialogue...I'm exaggerating of course.....the reflections are absolutely awful. As much as I would like to listen in direct mode for my lossless music, sometimes Audyssey is a must. Two cents....
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Old 03-17-2012, 06:15 AM
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The point is that electronics really don't matter, and this has been substantiated with actual data, not anecdotal "beliefs" - this isn't a religious debate after all. If you take level mismatch and any sort of intentional tone-modification out of the equation (like DSP, or any hard-set EQs or things like that), you're going to get a lot of the same across the board; and it doesn't have to "start" at $1k. It starts at a lot lower price point. Maybe a few hundred dollars, maybe less than a hundred, depending on what you're talking about.

So you are telling us that you have never personally heard a bad pairing of speakers/amps. I certainly have, in the same room, same everything, except the changing of the amp/receiver.
If a given speaker system is a bit aggressive on the high end, and the amp, receiver is equally aggressive the room would have to be so heavily damped to compensate.

Yes, the room certainly makes a difference: there would be no comparison between a room with thick carpet, heavy drapes, large upholstered seats and added wall panels where needed; and a room with tile floors(and no thick area rugs), no drapes, leather seats and only wall panels at the first reflection points.
I've also heard music in rooms, imo, that were too dead. No life to the music what-so-ever.

Of coarse, there is also the placement of the speakers to be considered. That is the first thing I do. Where I live now it took about 3 weeks before I was satisfied with the soundstage. Then I added my wall panels to dampen the room.
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Old 03-17-2012, 06:25 AM
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Thumbs up on the room being king. I have a pair of 836v's tucked away in corner between a set of sliding glass doors on one side and a set of windows on the other. As nice as my speakers are/can be, I might as well have my one and four year old stand up and recite the tv's dialogue...I'm exaggerating of course.....the reflections are absolutely awful. As much as I would like to listen in direct mode for my lossless music, sometimes Audyssey is a must. Two cents....

there's no real "advantage" to listening in "direct" mode...

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http://www.avsforum.com/t/1332917/ccotenj-finally-gets-a-projector

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Old 03-17-2012, 07:47 AM
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there's no real "advantage" to listening in "direct" mode...

Well, there are quite a few members of this and other forums that would disagree with that statement. Myself included.
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Old 03-17-2012, 07:48 AM
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there's no real "advantage" to listening in "direct" mode...

I hear a difference....I'm not well versed with the jargon but the instruments and voices sound more distinct and separated. The sounds also appears to be more clean if that makes any sense. why isn't there an advantage?
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Old 03-17-2012, 08:41 AM
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Commsysman-I'm not trying to be mean-spirited or jump on the dogpile, but I'd like to hear your answer to the above question.

This goes back months, so it is complicated; I will try to summarize.

There are two or three people here who got their pants in a knot several months ago because they claimed I was a shill for a certain retailer. They started following me around from forum to forum bashing me in every way they could; it has been a vendetta, pure and simple.

I totally quit mentioning that retailer months ago so that would stop, but if you go back to page 3 you will see that they are still trying to make that an issue even though I no longer mention that company. The lengths they go to drag that dead horse back out has gotten pretty ridiculous, but they are determined to try and keep it alive.

One of these guys has appointed himself Chief of Police of Forum Decorum and preaches at everyone who does not do exactly as he says in every way. His primary problem with me is that I refuse to kiss his backside and acknowledge his non-existent authority to tell me what to say and how to say it. He is simply on a huge power trip and I think he needs some professional help to deal with his delusions of grandeur. He seems to think he is in charge here and everyone had better knuckle under or else. He repeatedly posts at great length about his qualifications as a behavioral expert and how he is uniquely qualified to monitor everyone's behavior and tell us how to behave.

I have received a large number of private messages commiserating with me about their tactics and saying that they were similarly bashed by these individuals, so I am not their only victim. I do seem to be one of their favorites though.

You will notice that they jump into a forum and make personal attacks on people without even attempting to participate in the actual subject matter of the thread. That should be a clear indication of their vindictive agenda as opposed to being constructive contributors. There are two primary instigators in my case, but there are a couple of others who will jump on the dogpile when they can.

Fortunately, they are few in number, but they sure do try to make a nuisance of themselves.
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Old 03-17-2012, 09:16 AM
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Know that there are people who assume the electronics don't matter. There was even a guy using a cheap Sony receiver and a $49 dvd player in this forum not long ago making the same argument. They are a small but very vocal minority and if you read this forum, you might think theie views were the accepted norm when it is more likely that most people listen politely and do not engage them.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence

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