Help me build my system: $6,000 budget - Page 6 - AVS Forum
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post #151 of 164 Old 03-17-2012, 05:38 PM
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Originally Posted by 4DHD View Post

If one is using pure direct, bypass or whatever one wants to call it, there is still BM in the dvd player. Or at least my Denon DVD-A/SACD player does. It may be kindergarden grade compared to the BM on an AVR or pre/pro. But it at least sets the speakers to large/small, sub on/off and then sends the appropriate sound to each channel, including the sub.

Assuming we're going from multi-channel analog outputs on the player into multi-channel direct ins on the AVR/processor (which normally means no bass management anyways). Most players (especially CD and DVD models) do not have bass management on their S/PDIF or HDMI outputs that I'm aware of; perhaps a few here and there do, but it's not generally a common feature.
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post #152 of 164 Old 03-17-2012, 05:57 PM
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Again, you're not putting them at "max output" (that's the gain structure argument) - you're not even putting them at the same level out. It's entirely possible that the HK with it's dial "much lower" is just as close to it's maximum headroom, there's just more play in the dial (again, different gain structures) - the dB markings on the dial do not reflect acoustic SPL nor do they even reflect absolute dBV or dBW.

I can't say about that Denon. But the Citation 19 manual states that when the top row 0db LEDs are lit, the amp is at 100w output. It showed what the output would be for every level of those LED, when lit. So I was nowhere near max on the Citation.

AS for the Denon, that topped out at +5db, and constantly having to be somewhere from -1db to +5db is not a good thing imo. Have you ever played any 1/2 speed mastered LPs from Mobile Fidelity? Those LPs require quite a bit more power than a regular LP. Off the top of my head, I'm thinking 6db more, minimum, to get the same output. I'll have to check that. I have two 'Totally Hot' LPs, one is a 1/2 speed.
I did not even bother to try any 1/2 speed LPs, using that Denon receiver.

Here is the matrix of the Citation 19. As you can see, -18db not even close to max.

Custom, one of a kind pair, MJC212 mains, mod PT800 center, PT800 surrounds, SUB1500s. Parasound P7, Citation 19, Parasound HCA2205A, HK AVR3600, Marantz TT, Denon disc player, MacBook Pro w/ DragonFly usbDAC.
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post #153 of 164 Old 03-17-2012, 06:12 PM
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Originally Posted by walbert View Post


Direct mode on your Integra does a lot more than bypass the tone controls; it's also turning off Audyssey and bass management, and letting the unit get as close as possible to "straight-through" as it can (which isn't explicitly a good thing). That will produce an audible difference (perhaps a very dramatic one!) if you've got Audyssey set-up, because you're pulling an EQ (among other things) out of the chain. You wouldn't be the first person to dislike the results of Audyssey, and that isn't inherently "bad" - Audyssey targets a reference curve (not "flat"), and depending on how good or bad your acoustic environment is, it might be making some very weird adjustments that very dramatically change the sound. Alternately, you might be quite used to a distorted or un-even response, and the flattened response from Audyssey sounds foreign; it's not expected. The biggest "loss" I could forsee with what you're doing is the lack of bass management, especially if your mains are bookshelves or otherwise not so great down low. Otherwise, for listening to music, it's probably not the end of the world (yes, Audyssey or some other sort of correction scheme is likely better; room treatments would be advisable too).

Regarding which device does DtoA (between the Integra and the Marantz), it really doesn't matter unless one of them has some decoding feature not available in the other unit (DSD, TrueHD, whatever). Generally I preference digital connection to the receiver, mostly because it means less cables (one HDMI cable or one S/PDIF cable), which makes things look neater on the rack. You could make a case for pulling an ADDA chain out of the equation as well, but in theory that should be transparent too. It might mean different processing modes or features are available though, depending on the processor in question; just something to think about.

I think what was being referenced as "do nothing" was the tone-bypass switches that some receivers have (I have an old Yamaha with this, you push the button in and the treble and bass dials are removed from the signal path; it's the same as having them set at 0). But I'm not certain. Basically, those "tone bypass" switches don't do a whole lot, just like the "pure direct" buttons on some player machines don't do a whole lot (they usually turn on some lights, turn off the VFD/LCD, turn off the video output) - much ado about nothing to add another "feature" to the device. I like the ability to turn the VFD off though, sometimes that's nice when you want to watch a movie late at night.

I'm running a pair of Focal 836v's so the bass extension is decent. So it's safe to say that the analogue out to the integra in's, as a means to use utilize the DAC's of the marantz will not produce an audible improvement? Btw, thanks for the knowledge
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post #154 of 164 Old 03-17-2012, 07:49 PM
 
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Originally Posted by commsysman View Post

Post #83 was my first post on this thread.

Post #121 was my most recent.

All the others were only in response to harassment by the three stooges.

...and yours?

It was a yes or no question. The fact that you couldn't answer yes is an indication that you've felt the guilt. At least it's an admission, a weak one perhaps and that's a progress. Then just why are you spreading so much misconceptions on this forum? There is a member on this forum who does this to shill for his store that sells overpriced av gears. When he is challenged, he dances around (better than you). But you, if you're truly not a shill for some av gear store, why are you doing this?
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post #155 of 164 Old 03-17-2012, 08:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Browninggold View Post

Reminds me when I took a neighbor to his Dr. The secretary said which Doctor? I said hell why did I drive forty miles here...we have witch Doctors where I am from. His office is on the fifty yard line on the high school football field. ....BTW how did I miss this thread.

i'll give you a heads up next time...

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http://www.avsforum.com/t/1332917/ccotenj-finally-gets-a-projector

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post #156 of 164 Old 03-17-2012, 10:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jclif77 View Post

I'm running a pair of Focal 836v's so the bass extension is decent. So it's safe to say that the analogue out to the integra in's, as a means to use utilize the DAC's of the marantz will not produce an audible improvement? Btw, thanks for the knowledge

No, it should not produce any audible improvement or harm - the worst case scenario is that the ADDA chain you've created will be of some detriment (this is HIGHLY UNLIKELY and I am not saying this is the case). Basically, the Marantz is taking digital to analog (DA), the Integra is taking analog to digital (input; AD), and then digital to analog (output to amplifier section; DA) - DAADDA!. It should really be quite transparent, but I know some users prefer to remove as much of this as they can for simplicity's sake.

I'm not familiar with those speakers, but I'll take your word on it.

Basically, hook the Marantz up however is most convenient for you, with the cabling you have (in other words, if it works now, don't waste time crawling back there and screwing with it). Enjoy the tunes.

Use the "Pure Direct" mode as desired (you're not hurting anything, but it's probably not the most accurate possible playback).
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post #157 of 164 Old 03-18-2012, 01:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4DHD View Post

I mentioned that no way could it be putting out 80w. Only that it should, as it was rated. As I recall it went to +5 so that -1db should have been 20w. But I very much doubt it was. Meaning Denon's 80w rating had to be bogus.
The fact is the Citation had much more headroom. And to get 75db measured at the seat, required the Citation's LEDs lit to its -18db level = <2w.
For the Denon, that same 75db required about -1db. The Denon just did not have the chops.

If the only difference was the amplifiers, and both when in use measured the same SPL at the LP with the same signal, then both amplifiers are putting out the same amount of power.

Level and attenuator displays mean nothing. As I said before, you are confusing power out to an indicator and assuming they have a definite relationship. There is no standard for gain structure in devices, nor level indicators, and they vary over quite a range.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UeOXsA8sp_E
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post #158 of 164 Old 03-18-2012, 01:55 AM
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This thread is going all over the place.
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post #159 of 164 Old 03-18-2012, 12:25 PM
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For $6k, you can currently get a pair of Dynaudio Focus 220mk2 and a high quality IA (like Nait XS). This combo comes in at $5,1k leaving some money for a DAC and a Mac mini... I am building this setup and is plenty happy with the speakers (just need the IA)
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post #160 of 164 Old 03-18-2012, 08:52 PM
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Originally Posted by phoenyx View Post

this thread is going all over the place.

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post #161 of 164 Old 03-20-2012, 07:12 AM
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Originally Posted by ddave12000 View Post

Not trying to hijack the thread, but are you saying that 1-2k priced electronics are NOT audibly different? Sorry, I might be kind of slow...

killobuck priced amplifiers come in two categories:

(1) There is the stuff that is technically very good (e.g. Bryston) but does not in general sound different from a good $80 stereo receiver used reasonably, and

(2) that which is technically questionable (e.g. any single-ended triode amplifier), which can be counted on to sound different because of its measurable faults.

The key to understanding what matters in audio and what doesn't is doing proper listening tests, which generally involves bias controls such as DBTs.

I have in fact done many DBTs comparing inexpensive receivers and high end amplifiers, and in general, when level-matched and compared without peeking, they don't sound any different when used with reasonable speakers and in reasonable ways. Based on past experience, those who protest these facts the loudest are the first to fail to hear the differences they believe in when deprived of easy clues like knowing what they are listening to and having the levels properly matched.
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post #162 of 164 Old 03-21-2012, 08:53 AM
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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

killobuck priced amplifiers come in two categories:

(1) There is the stuff that is technically very good (e.g. Bryston) but does not in general sound different from a good $80 stereo receiver used reasonably, and

(2) that which is technically questionable (e.g. any single-ended triode amplifier), which can be counted on to sound different because of its measurable faults.

The key to understanding what matters in audio and what doesn't is doing proper listening tests, which generally involves bias controls such as DBTs.

I have in fact done many DBTs comparing inexpensive receivers and high end amplifiers, and in general, when level-matched and compared without peeking, they don't sound any different when used with reasonable speakers and in reasonable ways. Based on past experience, those who protest these facts the loudest are the first to fail to hear the differences they believe in when deprived of easy clues like knowing what they are listening to and having the levels properly matched.

Interesting post here. So in theory the biggest deal is getting something that is stable into 4 ohms and has enough power for your needs. Emotiva a100x can get the job done for many people for $220. Or Audiosource AMP100 even. If you insist on spending more money, how about a Marantz PM6004.. for $600.

Those Dynadios look pretty nice, 4 ohm load, sensitivity is rather low for what looks to me like a 2.5 way system (although they call it 2-way).
Quote:
Originally Posted by hometheaterhifi View Post

It should also be noted though that all of the Focus speakers are somewhat inefficient, with sensitivities in the mid-80s dB/w/m, and this combined with their impedance means that they work best when matched with relatively powerful amplification.

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post #163 of 164 Old 03-21-2012, 09:39 AM
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Originally Posted by djkest View Post

So in theory the biggest deal is getting something that is stable into 4 ohms and has enough power for your needs.... Or Audiosource AMP100 even.

I actually have an Audio Source AMP100 in use in our bedroom. ..It's driving a pair of Cambridge Audio S30 speakers. ..I also have a McIntosh MA6600 in our den driving a pair of Paradigm Signature S8 v2.s. ...Just for fun I may bring the Audio Source downstairs to see how if fares driving the Paradigms. ..My hunch is that so long as I don't drive the Audio Source beyond into clipping, it will sound indistinguishable from my McIntosh.
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post #164 of 164 Old 03-21-2012, 09:43 AM - Thread Starter
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Very interested to see how this turns out
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