new turntable and subwoofer - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 21 Old 04-20-2012, 01:38 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
benclement11's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: South Dakota
Posts: 1,295
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 17
Hi hooked up my project debut III, Rolls VP-29 phono pre-amp into my stereo. MY subwoofer doesn't seem to be behaving the same way as if I were playing cd or MP3. It moves a lot, but does not seem to be putting out much sound. Any idea what the problem may be?

Panasonic P60ST50-Yamaha RX-V467 receiver-Sony PS3-Velodyne SMS-1-Canton 430 mains, 455 center and 402 surrounds-Rythmik FV15HP subwoofer- Pro-ject Debut III turntable- I also have a pair of Mark K's DIY design, the ER18DXT's
.
My humble entertainment room

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
benclement11 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 21 Old 04-20-2012, 02:06 PM
AVS Special Member
 
A9X-308's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Australia; now run by adults.
Posts: 5,284
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 89 Post(s)
Liked: 72
Record warps, arm/cart resonance maybe.
A9X-308 is offline  
post #3 of 21 Old 04-20-2012, 02:27 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
benclement11's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: South Dakota
Posts: 1,295
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by A9X-308 View Post

Record warps, arm/cart resonance maybe.

it's a brand new record. I was wonderring if it had something to do with my connections. I have RCA running from Audio 1 on my receiver into out of pre-amp and the record player runs into the in of the phono preamp.

Panasonic P60ST50-Yamaha RX-V467 receiver-Sony PS3-Velodyne SMS-1-Canton 430 mains, 455 center and 402 surrounds-Rythmik FV15HP subwoofer- Pro-ject Debut III turntable- I also have a pair of Mark K's DIY design, the ER18DXT's
.
My humble entertainment room

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
benclement11 is offline  
post #4 of 21 Old 04-20-2012, 02:28 PM
AVS Special Member
 
lovinthehd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: OROR
Posts: 6,611
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 206 Post(s)
Liked: 780
Quote:
Originally Posted by benclement11 View Post

Hi hooked up my project debut III, Rolls VP-29 phono pre-amp into my stereo. MY subwoofer doesn't seem to be behaving the same way as if I were playing cd or MP3. It moves a lot, but does not seem to be putting out much sound. Any idea what the problem may be?

Well, a vinyl recording doesn't necessarily have the same range as digital...do the rest of the frequencies sound fine to you?

lovinthehd is offline  
post #5 of 21 Old 04-20-2012, 02:35 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
benclement11's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: South Dakota
Posts: 1,295
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post

Well, a vinyl recording doesn't necessarily have the same range as digital...do the rest of the frequencies sound fine to you?

the speakers sound great, but the subwoofer looked like it was working really hard. I have the record on vinyl and cd. The CD does not behave the same way.

Panasonic P60ST50-Yamaha RX-V467 receiver-Sony PS3-Velodyne SMS-1-Canton 430 mains, 455 center and 402 surrounds-Rythmik FV15HP subwoofer- Pro-ject Debut III turntable- I also have a pair of Mark K's DIY design, the ER18DXT's
.
My humble entertainment room

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
benclement11 is offline  
post #6 of 21 Old 04-20-2012, 02:43 PM
AVS Special Member
 
A9X-308's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Australia; now run by adults.
Posts: 5,284
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 89 Post(s)
Liked: 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by benclement11 View Post

it's a brand new record. I was wonderring if it had something to do with my connections. I have RCA running from Audio 1 on my receiver into out of pre-amp and the record player runs into the in of the phono preamp.

Quote:
Originally Posted by benclement11 View Post

The CD does not behave the same way.

Then it is a mechanical issue, and I gave the two most obvious candidates. New does not mean flat (even in the 70's when I started with vinyl) and due to the nature of the RIAA curve, if there is no LF roll off incorporated subsonic LF will be of high amplitude and cause the visible sub pumping.
A9X-308 is offline  
post #7 of 21 Old 04-20-2012, 02:48 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
benclement11's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: South Dakota
Posts: 1,295
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by A9X-308 View Post

Then it is a mechanical issue, and I gave the two most obvious candidates. New does not mean flat (even in the 70's when I started with vinyl) and due to the nature of the RIAA curve, if there is no LF roll off incorporated subsonic LF will be of high amplitude and cause the visible sub pumping.

and the correction when playing these records would be...? Turn the bass down? I did this...way more than I normally would. The sub kept pmping really fast and faintly sound like a helicopter. So I turned it off, thinking I may damage it.

Panasonic P60ST50-Yamaha RX-V467 receiver-Sony PS3-Velodyne SMS-1-Canton 430 mains, 455 center and 402 surrounds-Rythmik FV15HP subwoofer- Pro-ject Debut III turntable- I also have a pair of Mark K's DIY design, the ER18DXT's
.
My humble entertainment room

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
benclement11 is offline  
post #8 of 21 Old 04-20-2012, 03:03 PM
AVS Special Member
 
A9X-308's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Australia; now run by adults.
Posts: 5,284
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 89 Post(s)
Liked: 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by benclement11 View Post

and the correction when playing these records would be...? Turn the bass down? I did this...way more than I normally would. The sub kept pmping really fast and faintly sound like a helicopter. So I turned it off, thinking I may damage it.

Any or all of the following:
turn off the sub, LF filtering, ensuring arm mass/cart compliance are appropriate, record clamp to flatten warps some.

If it's a ported sub, then the lack of cone control below tuning could be a major contributor to the sub pumping as even a good arm/cart match would have a resonance below almost every ported sub, except maybe a few LLTs.

LPs are not ipods, they don't plug and play. Subs were almost non existent when LPs were in their heyday, so ULF issues were very rare.
A9X-308 is offline  
post #9 of 21 Old 04-20-2012, 03:08 PM
Member
 
Webomatic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Lynnwood, WA
Posts: 84
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by A9X-308 View Post

Any or all of the following:
turn off the sub, LF filtering, ensuring arm mass/cart compliance are appropriate, record clamp to flatten warps some.

If it's a ported sub, then the lack of cone control below tuning could be a major contributor to the sub pumping as even a good arm/cart match would have a resonance below almost every ported sub, except maybe a few LLTs.

LPs are not ipods, they don't plug and play. Subs were almost non existent when LPs were in their heyday, so ULF issues were very rare.

I'm thinking that this is in the right ballpark. I could also be a misaligned cart, or cart counter-weight may not be set properly.
Webomatic is offline  
post #10 of 21 Old 04-20-2012, 03:13 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
benclement11's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: South Dakota
Posts: 1,295
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by A9X-308 View Post

Any or all of the following:
turn off the sub, LF filtering, ensuring arm mass/cart compliance are appropriate, record clamp to flatten warps some.

If it's a ported sub, then the lack of cone control below tuning could be a major contributor to the sub pumping as even a good arm/cart match would have a resonance below almost every ported sub, except maybe a few LLTs.

LPs are not ipods, they don't plug and play. Subs were almost non existent when LPs were in their heyday, so ULF issues were very rare.

It it a ported sub tuned at 19 hz I believe. The record is Sublime Acoustic so I wouldn't think any content would be below tuning. What do you mean by resonance? I have the Debut III with Ortofon 2M Red cartridge. I'm going to try some different records and report back.

Panasonic P60ST50-Yamaha RX-V467 receiver-Sony PS3-Velodyne SMS-1-Canton 430 mains, 455 center and 402 surrounds-Rythmik FV15HP subwoofer- Pro-ject Debut III turntable- I also have a pair of Mark K's DIY design, the ER18DXT's
.
My humble entertainment room

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
benclement11 is offline  
post #11 of 21 Old 04-20-2012, 03:16 PM
AVS Special Member
 
A9X-308's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Australia; now run by adults.
Posts: 5,284
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 89 Post(s)
Liked: 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by Webomatic View Post

I'm thinking that this is in the right ballpark.

My first thought was this, but even with a great combination, any arm/cart resonance is going to be below the tuning of almost every ported sub and going to give one an excursion apoplexy with little effort.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Webomatic View Post

I could also be a misaligned cart, or cart counter-weight may not be set properly.

I agree with this too, and was going to amend the previous post to include this possibility when I saw your post.

It's very hard to diagnose and correct electromechanical issues from a distance, especially with the dearth of knowledge of set up details that I see in 'new' vinyl users.
A9X-308 is offline  
post #12 of 21 Old 04-20-2012, 03:17 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
benclement11's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: South Dakota
Posts: 1,295
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 17
Same thing...I play Paul Simon slip sliding away...very little bass and it does the same thing.
So I think your assertion is right. I called Needle Doctor and they basically said the same thing, but explained in a way I could understand(my 1st dive into vinyl). They think the cartridge is picking up the vibrations from the sub and creating a mechanical problem. They recommend that I separate the turntable and subwoofer. I don't have a lot of room right now so I may just listen to records with the sub turned off. It's not a deal killer, if I want big bass I can always listen to CD's. I just wanted to know why it wasn't working. Thanks for your help.

Panasonic P60ST50-Yamaha RX-V467 receiver-Sony PS3-Velodyne SMS-1-Canton 430 mains, 455 center and 402 surrounds-Rythmik FV15HP subwoofer- Pro-ject Debut III turntable- I also have a pair of Mark K's DIY design, the ER18DXT's
.
My humble entertainment room

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
benclement11 is offline  
post #13 of 21 Old 04-20-2012, 03:27 PM
Member
 
Webomatic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Lynnwood, WA
Posts: 84
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by benclement11 View Post

Same thing...I play Paul Simon slip sliding away...very little bass and it does the same thing.


I was looking at the specs of your phono pre and 35db gain seems a little low. Plus, it doesnt appear to have load capacity swithes either. Your TT is recommended to have 200-600 pF on the load capacity of the phono stage.

Maybe upgrade your phono stage. That's where the rubber hits the road.
Webomatic is offline  
post #14 of 21 Old 04-20-2012, 04:19 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
benclement11's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: South Dakota
Posts: 1,295
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by Webomatic View Post

I was looking at the specs of your phono pre and 35db gain seems a little low. Plus, it doesnt appear to have load capacity swithes either. Your TT is recommended to have 200-600 pF on the load capacity of the phono stage.

Maybe upgrade your phono stage. That's where the rubber hits the road.

what does sensitivity gain mean? Sorry for my ignorance. This is a "budget" phono preamp I was recommended for my starter system. But, it would be nice to know what to look for in a phono stage. In the future I want a tube preamp...something like this. What shoudl I be looking for in the specs?


http://www.needledoctor.com/Bellari-...category=35249

Panasonic P60ST50-Yamaha RX-V467 receiver-Sony PS3-Velodyne SMS-1-Canton 430 mains, 455 center and 402 surrounds-Rythmik FV15HP subwoofer- Pro-ject Debut III turntable- I also have a pair of Mark K's DIY design, the ER18DXT's
.
My humble entertainment room

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
benclement11 is offline  
post #15 of 21 Old 04-20-2012, 04:59 PM
Member
 
Webomatic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Lynnwood, WA
Posts: 84
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by benclement11 View Post

what does sensitivity gain mean? Sorry for my ignorance. This is a "budget" phono preamp I was recommended for my starter system. But, it would be nice to know what to look for in a phono stage. In the future I want a tube preamp...something like this. What shoudl I be looking for in the specs?


http://www.needledoctor.com/Bellari-...category=35249


Depending on the output of the cart you may need more or less gain. Your cart is 4.0mv so it's ideal gain would likely be closer to 40db.

Here is a decent solution for you at $199 from Project

http://www.needledoctor.com/Pro-Ject...category=35249
Webomatic is offline  
post #16 of 21 Old 04-20-2012, 06:53 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
benclement11's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: South Dakota
Posts: 1,295
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by Webomatic View Post

Depending on the output of the cart you may need more or less gain. Your cart is 4.0mv so it's ideal gain would likely be closer to 40db.

Here is a decent solution for you at $199 from Project

http://www.needledoctor.com/Pro-Ject...category=35249

Well actually I upgraded the cartridge to the Ortofon 2M Red...this is 5.5 mV. So ideally it would be outputting 55db? What do I get if I match the specs or by using the phono stage I have now what am I missing in the music?

Panasonic P60ST50-Yamaha RX-V467 receiver-Sony PS3-Velodyne SMS-1-Canton 430 mains, 455 center and 402 surrounds-Rythmik FV15HP subwoofer- Pro-ject Debut III turntable- I also have a pair of Mark K's DIY design, the ER18DXT's
.
My humble entertainment room

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
benclement11 is offline  
post #17 of 21 Old 04-21-2012, 03:11 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
arnyk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Grosse Pointe Woods, MI
Posts: 14,381
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 747 Post(s)
Liked: 1161
Quote:
Originally Posted by benclement11 View Post

Hi hooked up my project debut III, Rolls VP-29 phono pre-amp into my stereo. MY subwoofer doesn't seem to be behaving the same way as if I were playing cd or MP3. It moves a lot, but does not seem to be putting out much sound. Any idea what the problem may be?

Subs and vinyl don't go together so well, because vinyl playback necessarily introduces a lot of subsonic and low bass disturbances. Most vinyl is produced through high pass filters so the lowest bass is either not there or in mono or both.

Better shock mounting of the TT (put the TT on a garden walkway slab sitting on an inflated bicycle tube) might help.
arnyk is offline  
post #18 of 21 Old 04-23-2012, 07:52 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Rutgar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Dallas, Texas
Posts: 5,446
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 16
As several have suggested, it sounds like you may need to add a subsonic filter. Years ago I purchased a pair Nakamichi SF-10 in-line passive filters, which worked really well. I don't believe the SF-10's are still available, and are rare due to being often sought after. However, I believe there are new alternatives available from many of the turntable specialists.

- Rutgar


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Rutgar is offline  
post #19 of 21 Old 05-01-2012, 07:22 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
benclement11's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: South Dakota
Posts: 1,295
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 17
Thanks for the suggestions everyone. For now I turn the sub off when I listen to vinyl, which is fine. If I feel the need to thump I'll play cd's. Eventually when I move it to my basement I will probably take your advice.

Panasonic P60ST50-Yamaha RX-V467 receiver-Sony PS3-Velodyne SMS-1-Canton 430 mains, 455 center and 402 surrounds-Rythmik FV15HP subwoofer- Pro-ject Debut III turntable- I also have a pair of Mark K's DIY design, the ER18DXT's
.
My humble entertainment room

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
benclement11 is offline  
post #20 of 21 Old 05-02-2012, 05:47 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Swampfox's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 3,711
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

Subs and vinyl don't go together so well, because vinyl playback necessarily introduces a lot of subsonic and low bass disturbances. Most vinyl is produced through high pass filters so the lowest bass is either not there or in mono or both.

Better shock mounting of the TT (put the TT on a garden walkway slab sitting on an inflated bicycle tube) might help.

+1

Subs and vinyl are a bad mix. You can actually introduce mechanical positive feedback because of sensitivity to mechanical vibrations. Remember a vinyl system turns mechanical vibrations into electrical output into sound energy.
Swampfox is offline  
post #21 of 21 Old 05-02-2012, 06:00 AM
ap1
AVS Special Member
 
ap1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 2,226
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 19
If you are using a sub, subsonic filter in phono preamp is a must. Turntable often produce a lot of very low frequency noise - down to 10 Hz or less. You do not want ot to reach your sub.
ap1 is online now  
Reply 2 Channel Audio

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off