2-channel audio only .. Sub or no Sub? - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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post #31 of 148 Old 05-15-2012, 01:47 PM
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Originally Posted by 4DHD View Post

Yes it does, its a matter of adjusting the level of the sub to blend with the mains.
And for what it is worth, a flat response usually does not sound all that good. Setting a house curve is way better. The $30,000 Everest II has a slope of something like -10db from 45~20,000 htz.

The way I have my PT800s and sub1500s set now with the sub xo @125 and the PT800s starting their roll off @ 130 and -6db @ 80 has never sound better, compared to when I had the sub set to 80.

The OP's towers are rated down to a -3db point of 35hz. If he sets the crossover at 50hz or 80hz as you suggest and configures the sub gain to blend with the mains at that point, his mains may be putting out pretty full bass, and the sub gain will be turned way down from where it would be if the mains were not producing the bass at that frequency. Thus, once the mains start rolling off, the total SPL for the the lower frequency range will too because the sub gain is set much lower than it should be.

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post #32 of 148 Old 05-15-2012, 02:07 PM
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As I stated of the Everest, it has a FR with more bass and then slopes off.
When you have two subs in a room compared to only one, its only 3db gain (unless they're stacked). The same for running mains full range + sub. Many AVRs give you the option full range + sub for that reason, to give you slightly more bass output.
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post #33 of 148 Old 05-15-2012, 02:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4DHD View Post

When you have two subs in a room compared to only one, its only 3db gain (unless they're stacked). The same for running mains full range + sub. Many AVRs give you the option full range + sub for that reason, to give you slightly more bass output.

What does that have to do with the fact that, if the mains are already putting out sufficient bass, then the integration of them will likely result with the sub gain turned down?

And actually your statement is imprecise. If you have two matching subs in a room, then generally the total max SPL gain is around +3db unless stacked.

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post #34 of 148 Old 05-15-2012, 02:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IcemanDallas View Post

This assumes you have a dedicated room with no other furniture considerations. In a family room it is almost impossible to place a sub in an optimal position.

The same may apply to your main speakers but, with a sub, you have one more variable.

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http://www.stereophile.com/category/music-round

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post #35 of 148 Old 05-15-2012, 03:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

What does that have to do with the fact that, if the mains are already putting out sufficient bass, then the integration of them will likely result with the sub gain turned down?

And actually your statement is imprecise. If you have two matching subs in a room, then generally the total max SPL gain is around +3db unless stacked.

That is what I said, two subs will give you a +3db over a single. I did not think I needed to use the word matching. I only use matching subs. And I always recommend using identical subs placed symmetrically to the room's centerline.
If the mains are putting out sufficient bass, then a sub is not needed.
But most likely the RTi7s will not be in locations that produce maximum bass.
So their supposed rolloff of -3db @ 35 htz is useless, and indeed much less.
So if the sub was set @ 50hz it should be good. (I say that, having never been in that room)

As for the sub's volume set to blend, I never once mentioned it be near zero.
I have my subs volume set between 40~50%. And the bass is outstanding.
If I went over 50% it would be too much.
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post #36 of 148 Old 05-15-2012, 04:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4DHD View Post

That is what I said, two subs will give you a +3db over a single. I did not think I needed to use the word matching. I only use matching subs. And I always recommend using identical subs placed symmetrically to the room's centerline.

Yes. It will give you a MAX SPL increase in the room over just one sub. That absolutely no bearing on this issue. Plus, the OP is talking about buying ONE sub.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4DHD View Post

If the mains are putting out sufficient bass, then a sub is not needed.

And if the mains are a little down from 70-80hz, and you set the sub to crossover around there and gain match it to even out that frequency range--which is what you are suggesting--then the output of the sub will not provide much fill in at lower frequencies when the mains start rolling off harder. All you have done is provide a little offset, a little additional SPL throughout the frequency range. A high pass/low pass crossover, on the other hand, can make a huge difference in getting closer to a flat response for the crossover point down to where the sub starts to roll off, assuming the sub outputs a flat response.

The fact that you found your setup in your room to work well for you is likely because (a) you like your bass accentuated, (b) your particular room acoustics, and/or (c) the way that your two subs are working together. BTW, if you had a high pass/low pass crossover to work with, it probably wouldn't have taken you three months to get your subs configured with your speakers

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post #37 of 148 Old 05-15-2012, 05:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

BTW, I came up with what I feel to be a more representative graphic, with just you and pipe organs in mind:

(and if you believe that don't look at my recent post to another thread) ;-)

I'm intimately familiar with medium-sized pipe organs because I run live sound and do recording in a room with one active all the time. The medium sized ones are very strong reproducers down to abut 32 Hz, which is more than low enough to put a lot of speakers on notice. Of course, then there are the really big organs with strong output down to 16 Hz.

Well don't I feel special!

Thanks much, seriously. My new speakers should be able to dig down to 30Hz, but I will be following that purchase up with a decent sub or two.

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post #38 of 148 Old 05-15-2012, 05:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

Yes. It will give you a MAX SPL increase in the room over just one sub. That absolutely no bearing on this issue. Plus, the OP is talking about buying ONE sub.

Actually it does have a bearing. It makes NO difference if the bass frequencies are being played by two subs or one sub and the mains, as to the gain.

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And if the mains are a little down from 70-80hz, and you set the sub to crossover around there and gain match it to even out that frequency range--which is what you are suggesting--then the output of the sub will not provide much fill in at lower frequencies when the mains start rolling off harder. All you have done is provide a little offset, a little additional SPL throughout the frequency range. A high pass/low pass crossover, on the other hand, can make a huge difference in getting closer to a flat response for the crossover point down to where the sub starts to roll off, assuming the sub outputs a flat response.

I also mentioned setting the sub @ 50 htz and if the towers are not in a location that produces the rated bass output it will work. And be flat or close enough.


Quote:


The fact that you found your setup in your room to work well for you is likely because (a) you like your bass accentuated, (b) your particular room acoustics, and/or (c) the way that your two subs are working together. BTW, if you had a high pass/low pass crossover to work with, it probably wouldn't have taken you three months to get your subs configured with your speakers

Yes it is room dependent. This is most certainly an odd ball room, containing 4 archways in two brickwalls set in from the outside wall, bath, bedroom walls. And I have never setup two subs, stacked on the centerline, behind one of the columns before!
It was much more than matching the subs to the 3-ways. It was getting the total soundstage I was looking for. Wide, deep, full, without it being too live
Living where I do (country not Casa) its all concrete all the time. And requires more than just throwing up a few absorption panels.
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post #39 of 148 Old 05-15-2012, 05:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4DHD View Post

Actually it does have a bearing. It makes NO difference if the bass frequencies are being played by two subs or one sub and the mains, as to the gain.

I've been talking about the gain setting on the sub, not the room gain or the SPL gain from having more than one bass source. LOL

Some people call it the "volume" control. But it's not really a volume control even though it's typically labeled that way on the sub.


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Originally Posted by 4DHD View Post

I also mentioned setting the sub @ 50 htz and if the towers are not in a location that produces the rated bass output it will work. And be flat or close enough.

I read something different.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4DHD View Post

It does not hurt to have double bass! The OP can set the sub to 50 or 80 htz and let the RTi7s just roll off.


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post #40 of 148 Old 05-16-2012, 02:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4DHD View Post

As I stated of the Everest, it has a FR with more bass and then slopes off.
When you have two subs in a room compared to only one, its only 3db gain (unless they're stacked). The same for running mains full range + sub. Many AVRs give you the option full range + sub for that reason, to give you slightly more bass output.

I suspect that you've missed out on some recent developments. It has been shown that having 2 subs in a room can help mitigate bass suck-outs at certain points in the room. Since these suck-outs can be really deep holes, the gains can be a lot more than 3 dB.
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post #41 of 148 Old 05-16-2012, 06:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

I suspect that you've missed out on some recent developments. It has been shown that having 2 subs in a room can help mitigate bass suck-outs at certain points in the room. Since these suck-outs can be really deep holes, the gains can be a lot more than 3 dB.

Two is good, especially if placed at 1/3 to 1/2 way of the side walls.
Four is even better, again placed at the midpoint of all 4 walls.
One corner loaded sub is usually not ideal.
Two corner loaded subs, a typical large two speaker set-up, is at best a slight improvement over one corner loaded sub.
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post #42 of 148 Old 05-16-2012, 08:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

I suspect that you've missed out on some recent developments. It has been shown that having 2 subs in a room can help mitigate bass suck-outs at certain points in the room. Since these suck-outs can be really deep holes, the gains can be a lot more than 3 dB.

I have not missed anything. As I've already said, I've been using two or more subs in a room for over ten years. Only in the smallest of rooms would I only want one sub.
One thing that is a constant, every room will require a different setup as to where the mains and subs are placed. Even on two identical rooms, if the furniture in both are quite different, carpet in one, wood in the other, etc will change how it needs to be handled.
I've had as many as five subs in one room.
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post #43 of 148 Old 05-16-2012, 08:21 AM
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Originally Posted by 4DHD View Post

I have not missed anything. As I've already said, I've been using two or more subs in a room for over ten years. Only in the smallest of rooms would I only want one sub.
One thing that is a constant, every room will require a different setup as to where the mains and subs are placed. Even on two identical rooms, if the furniture in both are quite different, carpet in one, wood in the other, etc will change how it needs to be handled.
I've had as many as five subs in one room.

Furnishings have a nominal effect on sound in the lower two octaves. In essence, as frequency decreases or wavelength increases, the boundary conditions overwhelm overall response.
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post #44 of 148 Old 05-16-2012, 08:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Swampfox View Post

Furnishings have a nominal effect on sound in the lower two octaves. In essence, as frequency decreases or wavelength increases, the boundary conditions overwhelm overall response.

I did not say furnishings had a sound effect on bass. I was referring to the overall sound in the room. Leather chairs have a different effect to upholstered chairs. Leather reflects sound, cloth covered chairs absorb sound. As such, I would never want leather chairs in an audio room.
And the longer a room is the longer the wave lengths get.
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post #45 of 148 Old 05-21-2012, 10:42 AM
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Since I only got bookshelf type speakers, sub helps a lot for a fuller sound.
I used a sub to pick up freq below 60Hz, it must be place at center of listening area to be balance.
Otherwise 2 subs at corner is even better.

I see the atoms free and fine,

That bubble like a sparkling wine;
I see the songs Electrons sing,
Jumping from ring to outer ring;
              - Lister, The Physicist
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post #46 of 148 Old 05-21-2012, 08:54 PM
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My understanding is that low frequencies have such a long wavelength that stereo, or having two subs, is not an issue. In my room, which is HT plus 2 channel, I run WATT Puppy V.1s with an M&K V125 powered sub. I just turn the sub up for movies, down for 2.1 listening. Sounds really nice in both applications.
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post #47 of 148 Old 05-22-2012, 04:28 PM
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Hi

I am playing around with different settings/connections with my setup

I listen to 95% 2 channel, 3% Multi channel music, 2% movies.

I have a room mode at 36hz Q 7.4 Gain -12

Main problem with the bass region is between 30-40HZ.

My system consists of:

Yamaha Z9
Velodyne DD15
Velodyne DD12

I have tried:
1. Bass management 80hz with both subs running mono.
2. Running full range (speakers) with the DD15 (speaker input) underpinning the mains & using the DD12 for LFE, bit like REL.

The jury is out on which one is better.

Any other ideas/thoughts would be appreciated, mainly for the 2 channel side.
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post #48 of 148 Old 05-22-2012, 05:49 PM
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Try moving the subs around the room, until you get the response you want.
And/or move your seat, might be sitting in a null.
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post #49 of 148 Old 05-23-2012, 03:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4DHD View Post

I did not say furnishings had a sound effect on bass. I was referring to the overall sound in the room. Leather chairs have a different effect to upholstered chairs. Leather reflects sound, cloth covered chairs absorb sound.

Leather and cloth, like everything else are neither true reflectors or true absorbers. Instead they are someplace in between and reflect and absorb different sounds differently. All cloth is not the same and neither is all leather. The type of global, black and white statement presented above is terribly flawed and over-simplifies a complex area.

Quote:


As such, I would never want leather chairs in an audio room.

Room acoustics reminds me a bit of cooking. If you get the right ingredients and mix them together in the right proportions you can get something wonderful. There are many kinds of wonderful and a wide variation in ingredients and processes can all give excellent results.

Don't diss leather chairs on the grounds of acoustics.

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And the longer a room is the longer the wave lengths get.

Science is not a friend of this post. The wave length of a given frequency is the same in all rooms. There is no relationship between the size of a room and the lowest frequency it can transmit to the ears. Different sized rooms give different results but there is no evidence that any size room is incapable of effectively supporting all frequencies in the audible range. That all said, your efforts to get good sound will vary depending on the size of the room.
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post #50 of 148 Old 05-23-2012, 04:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

Leather and cloth, like everything else are neither true reflectors or true absorbers. Instead they are someplace in between and reflect and absorb different sounds differently. All cloth is not the same and neither is all leather. The type of global, black and white statement presented above is terribly flawed and over-simplifies a complex area.

There are some cloths you certainly would not want to use for speaker grille cloth, for instants, as they will mask the high frequencies.
But I will stand by my statement, leather is more of a reflector than cloth.



Quote:


Room acoustics reminds me a bit of cooking. If you get the right ingredients and mix them together in the right proportions you can get something wonderful. There are many kinds of wonderful and a wide variation in ingredients and processes can all give excellent results.

This is true, to an extent. And I have said many times, two houses with the exact same room being used for audio, but with different furnishings will produce a slightly different sound.



Quote:


Don't diss leather chairs on the grounds of acoustics.

I also don't like sitting on leather, I've had leather chairs in the past, never again.



Quote:


Science is not a friend of this post. The wave length of a given frequency is the same in all rooms. There is no relationship between the size of a room and the lowest frequency it can transmit to the ears. Different sized rooms give different results but there is no evidence that any size room is incapable of effectively supporting all frequencies in the audible range. That all said, your efforts to get good sound will vary depending on the size of the room.

In the last house I had in Nevada, the total room (LR/DR) was 32 ft long. The dining table was at the far end, from the audio system. I sat at the end of the table, facing the system, with my back against the wall (which was only about 4 ft wide with a wide opening to the hallways/kitchen).
There were deep bass notes in that corner that could NOT be heard anywhere else in that room. Most certainly not within the first 20 ft, which was the length of the LR. At which point there was an 8'-8"x7' archway with sliding pocket doors to close off the room when needed.
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post #51 of 148 Old 05-23-2012, 05:33 AM
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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

Check this out:

Which instruments in the music you like will benefit from improved response below say, 60 Hz?

First time i have seen this. Love it.
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post #52 of 148 Old 05-23-2012, 06:04 AM
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I think that a sub is definitely beneficial however you really need at least 2 subs (4 is best) in order to get an even bass response in the room.

I LOVE what audyssey room correction on my new integra DHC 80.3 does for stereo+sub. It really provides excellent sub integration with mains and equalization that really sounds fantastic. The before and after when i added the integra comparing 2 channel pure was impressive.

I never listen to pure 2 channel anymore. Everything sounds better to me with audyssey processing.


I also have a lot of diffusion in the room and floor to ceiling and ceiling corner bass trapping.

Blazar!
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post #53 of 148 Old 05-23-2012, 06:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4DHD View Post

I also don't like sitting on leather, I've had leather chairs in the past, never again.

This document seems to shed quite a bit of light on the question of the sound absorbancy of chairs with cloth and leather(like - e.g. vinyl) coverings:

http://www.nrc-cnrc.gc.ca/obj/irc/do...208/brn208.pdf

Figures 5 and 6 at the very end seem most relevant. Bottom line is that the fabric-covered theatre seat is more absorbant at high frequencies. However, the vinyl-covered seat is still highly absorbant. Placing a human into the seat seems to equalize them to a great extent.




Quote:


In the last house I had in Nevada, the total room (LR/DR) was 32 ft long. The dining table was at the far end, from the audio system. I sat at the end of the table, facing the system, with my back against the wall (which was only about 4 ft wide with a wide opening to the hallways/kitchen).
There were deep bass notes in that corner that could NOT be heard anywhere else in that room. Most certainly not within the first 20 ft, which was the length of the LR. At which point there was an 8'-8"x7' archway with sliding pocket doors to close off the room when needed.

OK, you had standing waves in that particular room which is not unexpected at all. That fact actually sheds no relevant information on whether or not there can be good bass in small rooms. Small rooms are actually easier to generate strong bass in.
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post #54 of 148 Old 05-23-2012, 11:56 AM
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Definately go with the sub unless you are in an apartment.
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post #55 of 148 Old 05-23-2012, 12:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

OK, you had standing waves in that particular room which is not unexpected at all. That fact actually sheds no relevant information on whether or not there can be good bass in small rooms. Small rooms are actually easier to generate strong bass in.

Don't get me wrong, when the sliding doors were shut, there was plenty of bass. A movie like Shooter, the bass was beating on our chests and blowing our pant legs. It would be so low at times, that you would feel it more than hear it.
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post #56 of 148 Old 11-05-2012, 08:34 AM
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This may not be a popular response to your question BUT i'm not in audio forums to be POPULAR, if you buy the RIGHT speakers you don't need a subwoofer or subwoofers that does not mean that it's the same for everybody else this is MY opinion and you have the right to yours. live and let live smile.gifsmile.gifsmile.gif

PS: My living room is 13x20x8 feet Acoustat's 1+1 go down to 30hz for ME that's more than enough.

PS: I'm a full range panel guy and i'm not for mixing panels with BOXES.



Chord CPM-2600 amplifier
Chord One cd player
Acoustat 1+1 speakers
Life without Acoustat is possible BUT senseless
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post #57 of 148 Old 11-05-2012, 12:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrAcoustat View Post

This may not be a popular response to your question BUT i'm not in audio forums to be POPULAR, if you buy the RIGHT speakers you don't need a subwoofer or subwoofers that does not mean that it's the same for everybody else this is MY opinion and you have the right to yours. live and let live smile.gifsmile.gifsmile.gif

PS: I'm a full range panel guy and i'm not for mixing panels with BOXES.

KeepItSimple1000X750.jpg

I guess these are the same or similar speakers?



The owner's comment is:

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/planars-exotics/35448-acoustat-reconfiguration.html#post410434

"The kindest thing to do for Acoustats is use a sub. Even doubling the radiating area doesn't create adequate bottom end. They make really good midwoofers though ..."

;-)
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post #58 of 148 Old 11-05-2012, 03:12 PM
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Similar YES, the same oh NO.smile.gifsmile.gifsmile.gif Weight 200 pounds, Bass from panels is VERY different than boxes.






Chord CPM-2600 amplifier
Chord One cd player
Acoustat 1+1 speakers
Life without Acoustat is possible BUT senseless
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post #59 of 148 Old 11-06-2012, 04:37 AM
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Originally Posted by MrAcoustat View Post

Similar YES, the same oh NO.smile.gifsmile.gifsmile.gif Weight 200 pounds

Your love for these devices is obvious. Quite a project!

Unfortunately, overkilling the possibility of chassis resonances does nothing at all for the two classic bass weaknesses of planar speakers, one of whichis that they are bipolar and the back wave mixes with the front wave and cancels out much of the low bass. Then there is the situation with diaphragm area versus excursion which may or may not be favorable.
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post #60 of 148 Old 11-06-2012, 02:04 PM
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Hi Arnold what you call overkill for us isn't, the all steel frame adds mass and when you have 94 inches high panels you need that to illiminate the swing factor one of the panels worst enemy, as for the tightening of the bass this is done by much better parts in the interfaces in my case i live in a small condo my panels are 3 feet from the rear wall and i don't listend loud i would like to have more room BUT you must live with what you have my friend Jocelyn's speakers are 7 feet from the rear wall but his room is much bigger so are his Spectra 8800s four times the size of my 1+1s i have been living with Acoustat's for more than 28 years and for the MONEY they are very very hard to beat and yes you're right my love for these speakers is OBVIOUS smile.gifsmile.gifsmile.gif

PS: These Spectra 8800s on their own go down to 24hz BUT with the two JL F-112 subwoofers they go down to 14hz measured. all i can say is that my preference is without subs BUT they are not mine.




Acoustat modified Spectra 8800s - - - 41x102x10 inches close to 800 pounds. ( almost theft proof ) smile.gif

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