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post #91 of 148 Old 12-04-2012, 10:38 AM
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I've used a sub in my system consisting of Energy RC-70 and Rotel components and I actually prefer the 70s without a sub. I just like how they handle the bass on their own, especially the bass drum.
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post #92 of 148 Old 12-05-2012, 03:47 AM
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Please folks,

Sub for music in a 250 ft room with Kefs XQ20: which one is better, a small one (8") or a bigger (12 - 15") one?

Using now a HK3485 (no bass management), but can add a capable AVR as pre-amp (Hk340).

My options are only Velodynes...

Thanks,

Edward
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post #93 of 148 Old 12-05-2012, 04:38 AM
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There is no reason for a properly ported sub not to reproduce all frequencies above the tuning frequency better than a sealed one. The one disadvantage of a ported sub is that the enclosure will be larger than a sealed one with a similar driver. Any talk about speed or "tightness" or.... is hogwash. The advantages of a sealed sub is all audiophile nonsense. I say this out of both experience and study. I currently have two subs, both DIY, both tuned with large passive radiators which are equivalent to ports. They are extraordinary sounding with clean bass from their crossover down to below 20Hz.
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post #94 of 148 Old 12-05-2012, 05:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by galvs View Post

Please folks,

Sub for music in a 250 ft room with Kefs XQ20: which one is better, a small one (8") or a bigger (12 - 15") one?

Using now a HK3485 (no bass management), but can add a capable AVR as pre-amp (Hk340).

My options are only Velodynes...

The following lists the maximum undistorted SPL for a SOTA 8" driver (19 mm Xmax)

Hz SPL
20 90
30 97
40 102
50 106
60 109
70 112
80 114
90 117
100 118
130 123

Seems marginal for one device. 2-4 such subwoofers could be interesting.

In general subwoofer manufacturers seem to decline to provide actual data for driver Xmax. The above is a charitable view of what a very good commercial sub with an SOTA 8" drive can possibly do.

Just to review, the following is similar information for a SOTA 12" driver:

Hz SPL
20 99
30 107
40 112
50 115
60 119
70 121
80 124
90 126
100 127
130 132

Seems potentially useful but not spectacular. A pair could be interesting.

Just to review, the following is similar information for a SOTA 18" driver:

Hz SPL
20 110
30 118
40 123
50 126
60 130
70 132
80 135
90 137
100 138
130 143

Nice starting point!
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post #95 of 148 Old 12-05-2012, 05:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Theresa View Post

There is no reason for a properly ported sub not to reproduce all frequencies above the tuning frequency better than a sealed one. The one disadvantage of a ported sub is that the enclosure will be larger than a sealed one with a similar driver. Any talk about speed or "tightness" or.... is hogwash. The advantages of a sealed sub is all audiophile nonsense. I say this out of both experience and study. I currently have two subs, both DIY, both tuned with large passive radiators which are equivalent to ports. They are extraordinary sounding with clean bass from their crossover down to below 20Hz.

The above is absolutely consistent with both accepted science and the personal experience of a great many. Given all of the nasty things that happen in rooms as a matter of course, small differences such as vented versus unvented, neither option of which is necessarily inferior sonically, tend to get lost in the struggle. Venting is more advantageous if electronic equalization is not used, because it provides more extended unequalized response.
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post #96 of 148 Old 12-05-2012, 05:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Theresa View Post

There is no reason for a properly ported sub not to reproduce all frequencies above the tuning frequency better than a sealed one. The one disadvantage of a ported sub is that the enclosure will be larger than a sealed one with a similar driver. Any talk about speed or "tightness" or.... is hogwash. The advantages of a sealed sub is all audiophile nonsense. I say this out of both experience and study. I currently have two subs, both DIY, both tuned with large passive radiators which are equivalent to ports. They are extraordinary sounding with clean bass from their crossover down to below 20Hz.

How does this box behave compared to a ported box below the tuning frequency? Say if you want to EQ it up quite a lot in the ULF, say to play useful outputs in the 5-10Hz range?

Under construction: the Larch theater
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post #97 of 148 Old 12-05-2012, 06:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightlord View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Theresa View Post

There is no reason for a properly ported sub not to reproduce all frequencies above the tuning frequency better than a sealed one. The one disadvantage of a ported sub is that the enclosure will be larger than a sealed one with a similar driver. Any talk about speed or "tightness" or.... is hogwash. The advantages of a sealed sub is all audiophile nonsense. I say this out of both experience and study. I currently have two subs, both DIY, both tuned with large passive radiators which are equivalent to ports. They are extraordinary sounding with clean bass from their crossover down to below 20Hz.

How does this box behave compared to a ported box below the tuning frequency? Say if you want to EQ it up quite a lot in the ULF, say to play useful outputs in the 5-10Hz range?

The dynamic and distortion behavior of a speaker at any frequency below the point where it is mass loaded is dominated by the linearity of the cone's suspension and magnetic motor. I suspect that a vented enclosure may have a slight edge near the box tuning frequency, which in turn is near to but usually above the - 3dB point because cone motion is reduced at this point, and sound from the vent predominates.



In the picture about the blue line is the radiation from the cone which roughly tracks cone motion at low frequencies. You can see that cone motion is actually minimized around about 78 Hz. This corresponds to an area of low distortion. Instead of coming from the cone at this frequency, the sound in the room mostly comes from the port. Below the-3 dB point low frequency distortion rises pretty quickly because cone motion increases.

At 10 Hz the threshold of hearing is very high.



The threshold of hearing below 20 Hz is not generally given, but the green line shows a reasonable but not necessarily highly accurate extrapolation to approximately 95 dB @ 10 Hz.

As shown below merely having a barely audible SPL at 10 Hz requires at minimum a SOTA 15" subwoofer driver:

Freq SPL
10 95
20 110
30 118
40 123
50 126
60 130
70 132
80 135
90 137
100 138
130 143

If you want to enjoy 10 Hz, you might need a minimum of 4 SOTA 18" drivers and they would probably have to have some low bass boost!
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post #98 of 148 Old 12-05-2012, 06:50 AM
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Graphs between vented and closed boxes tend to show closed boxes winning in the ULF, do you mean they're wrong?

Yes, I have an active boost circuitboard in the plugin-slot of my active crossovers with quite some lift. For the theater, it's 6x12" sealed boxes, but that's to start with 12" diameter cones, not 12" baskets... and they're a bit better than the average SOTA. cool.gif They are rated for >128dB @ 16Hz. (134dB peak)

(Use the same crossover for my stereo, but the room is not sealed so I can't get useful output all the way down, but the goal there was 16 so that's ok. )

BTW, I wouldn't call it audible - for me it's more a tactile experience when you drop below ~18.

Under construction: the Larch theater
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post #99 of 148 Old 12-05-2012, 07:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightlord View Post

Graphs between vented and closed boxes tend to show closed boxes winning in the ULF, do you mean they're wrong?

I'm not going to dispute any well-known authority in this area.

Got one?

I can't find any, and that includes the Vance Dickensons Loudspeaker Design Cookbook which talks favorably about electornically boosted vented subwoofers (ca. page 82).
Quote:
Yes, I have an active boost circuitboard in the plugin-slot of my active crossovers with quite some lift. For the theater, it's 6x12" sealed boxes, but that's to start with 12" diameter cones, not 12" baskets... and they're a bit better than the average SOTA. cool.gif They are rated for >128dB @ 16Hz. (134dB peak)

(Use the same crossover for my stereo, but the room is not sealed so I can't get useful output all the way down, but the goal there was 16 so that's ok. )

BTW, I wouldn't call it audible - for me it's more a tactile experience when you drop below ~18.

I'm not going to argue that, either. I call bass below 20 Hz perceptible and often very nice. Is it hearing? Is it feeling? It can be very nice and enhance the envelopment.
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post #100 of 148 Old 12-05-2012, 08:10 AM
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For any fellow readers who want to check that, his name is actually Dickason.

Under construction: the Larch theater
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post #101 of 148 Old 01-03-2014, 11:09 PM
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There would be very FEW reasons not to have a subwoofer:

1. You don't care about bass or the accuracy of the bass spectrum. You already like how your main speakers sound and just don't care to do anything further.
2. your room shape, main speaker location, sitting position is PERFECT and you have a linear response of sound from 20hz-100hz. This is just sheer luck of course and highly unlikely.
3. Your main speakers reproduce 20-80hz very well already. In other words they contain subwoofers. This is also unlikely.
4. Reason #2 and #3 both apply to your situation and you are already just very lucky. The audiophile gods clearly love you.

Anyone else, I would question their "audiophileness". I have had many phenomenal main speakers, even those with decent bass response, and they have always fallen short in the rooms I have used. Some songs that just happen to have notes that fall into a null on my frequency response just sounded crappy. Even great speakers would sound totally different after I moved and I could never get the same song to sound the same again. It was for me, almost always in the bass frequencies, where this was most noticeable.

Even so called "purist" claims make little sense unless you are in category 4. I would love to see the in-room frequency response of folks who claim to be "purists".

Personally I find that the listening room makes such a HUGE difference that any true audiophile who cares about this hobby enough, will ultimately have to build a purpose-built room. I'm not saying this out of simple audiophile snobbery of some sort. I suspect people are spending more money on equipment than they are on their room which is a silly way to look at things since real estate actually appreciates in value and your equipment perpetually depreciates. If you are relatively POOR... you should spend MORE on the room and less on the crap within it.

One of the reasons I mistrust audio magazine reviews: the room's characteristics are not clearly described. I have no idea if the reviewer is describing the speaker or the room. I hear all sorts of commentary about swapping this amp or that cable, but almost no commentary about using the speakers in different rooms with different absorption or diffusion characteristics. There is focus on minutiae that don't matter and little focus on gross details that do matter. Hell, most review magazines don't even describe how far they are sitting from their speakers during the listening testing...

Blazar!
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post #102 of 148 Old 01-04-2014, 02:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blazar View Post

Even so called "purist" claims make little sense unless you are in category 4. I would love to see the in-room frequency response of folks who claim to be "purists".

Exactly. Reading someone waffling on about how the bass from such and such speaker relayed a particular music track means very little. For all you know they could be sitting in a big 70 to 60hz null with a big 50hz +10dB peak. That there alone is going to dictate how the bass on that track or the next is going to sound. Without measurements they would never know.
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post #103 of 148 Old 01-04-2014, 06:39 AM
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Originally Posted by blazar View Post

. I have had many phenomenal main speakers, even those with decent bass response, and they have always fallen short in the rooms I have used. Some songs that just happen to have notes that fall into a null on my frequency response just sounded crappy. Even great speakers would sound totally different after I moved and I could never get the same song to sound the same again. It was for me, almost always in the bass frequencies, where this was most noticeable.

An apparently little-known technical problem is the way that nonlinear distortion starts increasing below as high as 200 Hz for large expensive "full range" speakers.

If you disassemble these speakers the reason is obvious - they don't have 15-18" 20 mm+ Xmax drivers for the bass. They have far, far smaller drivers with relatively modest Xmax performance.

So-called full range speakers also force you to place them where the upper range is reproduced in an appropriate manner, which is often not where the low bass is optimized.

For example the Paradigm Studio 10:

http://www.soundstagemagazine.com/measurements/paradigm_studio100_v3/



The above is for only 95 dB SPL!
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post #104 of 148 Old 01-04-2014, 08:46 AM
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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

An apparently little-known technical problem is the way that nonlinear distortion starts increasing below as high as 200 Hz for large expensive "full range" speakers.

If you disassemble these speakers the reason is obvious - they don't have 15-18" 20 mm+ Xmax drivers for the bass. They have far, far smaller drivers with relatively modest Xmax performance.

So-called full range speakers also force you to place them where the upper range is reproduced in an appropriate manner, which is often not where the low bass is optimized.

For example the Paradigm Studio 10:

http://www.soundstagemagazine.com/measurements/paradigm_studio100_v3/



The above is for only 95 dB SPL!

I agree 100%. While getting low end response is complex and the solutions imperfect, not trying at all is not any better.

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post #105 of 148 Old 01-04-2014, 12:45 PM
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You're not the only one that uses more than two speakers on a 2ch system. I'm using 2 pairs of speakers (A & B) on my music system. And they are not even the same brand. Most of the time, I'm using just the mains with the receiver on pure direct. There are times when I use both pairs + sub

What is the benefit of using two sets of speakers on a 2 channel system?

What you got back home, little sister, to play your fuzzy warbles on? I bet you got little save pitiful, portable picnic players. Come with uncle and hear all proper! Hear angel trumpets and devil trombones. You are invited.
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post #106 of 148 Old 01-04-2014, 01:42 PM
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Originally Posted by eljr View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ysay View Post


You're not the only one that uses more than two speakers on a 2ch system. I'm using 2 pairs of speakers (A & B) on my music system. And they are not even the same brand. Most of the time, I'm using just the mains with the receiver on pure direct. There are times when I use both pairs + sub

What is the benefit of using two sets of speakers on a 2 channel system?

+1
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post #107 of 148 Old 01-04-2014, 02:33 PM
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And despite being rated 300w less than the K2, actually put out higher spl.
BS.
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post #108 of 148 Old 01-04-2014, 04:04 PM
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BS.
The K2 is an analog amp the BASH are digital. That would be the difference. If you choose not to believe it...your problem.
And I am not taking anything away from the K2. Its one fine amp.
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post #109 of 148 Old 01-04-2014, 04:15 PM
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The K2 is an analog amp the PASS are digital. That would be the difference. If you choose not to believe it...your problem.
And I am not taking anything away from the K2. Its one fine amp.
Digital, schmigital. The same speaker driven with 300W less and produces a higher SPL is BS. It's not a matter of belief but electrical engineering.
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post #110 of 148 Old 01-04-2014, 05:23 PM
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Originally Posted by A9X-308 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4DHD View Post

The K2 is an analog amp the PASS are digital. That would be the difference. If you choose not to believe it...your problem.
And I am not taking anything away from the K2. Its one fine amp.
Digital, schmigital. The same speaker driven with 300W less and produces a higher SPL is BS. It's not a matter of belief but electrical engineering.

+1.

I'd like to know the full model number of this allegedly fully digital Pass power amp. If its fully digital it would be some kind of a first. But to reiterate, for amps and preamps digital and analog jocky around based on cost and other secondary benefits, not sound quality.
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post #111 of 148 Old 01-05-2014, 02:53 AM
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Digital, schmigital. The same speaker driven with 300W less and produces a higher SPL is BS. It's not a matter of belief but electrical engineering.
The SPL meter does not lie.
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post #112 of 148 Old 01-05-2014, 03:19 AM
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Originally Posted by A9X-308 View Post

Digital, schmigital. The same speaker driven with 300W less and produces a higher SPL is BS. It's not a matter of belief but electrical engineering.
The SPL meter does not lie.

No, but people often expect too much of SPL meters, such as believing that they are more precise or stable than they are. Acoustic measurements are a snake pit compared to electrical measurements, and electrical measurements could answer this question.
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post #113 of 148 Old 01-05-2014, 11:59 AM
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What is the benefit of using two sets of speakers on a 2 channel system?

As far as benefit, most people would probably say none. But it's a matter of sound preference for me. I like the way my system sound when listening to instrumental music which I like listening to. Using my Monitor Audio Gold as main and a pair of Mirage Omni 60 as secondary creates a much wider sweet spot. Almost the same as using all channel stereo on my HT system when I listen to music there.
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post #114 of 148 Old 01-05-2014, 12:41 PM
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No, but people often expect too much of SPL meters, such as believing that they are more precise or stable than they are. Acoustic measurements are a snake pit compared to electrical measurements, and electrical measurements could answer this question.

Some amps have inaccurate/incomplete wattage claims and not all amps will drive a speaker with 2ohms impedance. Speakers will often drop to 2 ohms impedance during playback.

Class d amps seem to have the ability to handle low impedance loads really well so despite their wattage comparisons will often give better bass response when it counts.

I'm no electrical engineer so folks feel free to chime in and correct me if I'm wrong.

Blazar!
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post #115 of 148 Old 01-05-2014, 12:58 PM
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Originally Posted by blazar View Post

Some amps have inaccurate/incomplete wattage claims and not all amps will drive a speaker with 2ohms impedance. Speakers will often drop to 2 ohms impedance during playback.

Class d amps seem to have the ability to handle low impedance loads really well so despite their wattage comparisons will often give better bass response when it counts.

I'm no electrical engineer so folks feel free to chime in and correct me if I'm wrong.

OK, you're wrong. The entire second sentence is incorrect. wink.gif

For every new thing I learn, I forget two things I used to know.
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post #116 of 148 Old 01-05-2014, 01:18 PM
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Clarify please, i would like to learn more!

Every class d style amp ive owned so far has been rated down to 2ohm loads at much lower price points than many class AB amps at higher price points. I may have made the incorrect assumption that it is easier/cheaper to make a class D amp that handles lower impedances...

Blazar!
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post #117 of 148 Old 01-05-2014, 01:39 PM
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Originally Posted by 4DHD View Post

The SPL meter does not lie.
If the test equipment describes a physical impossibility, then the spurious result shows the incompetence of the tester.
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post #118 of 148 Old 01-05-2014, 01:43 PM
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Originally Posted by 4DHD View Post

The K2 is an analog amp the PASS are digital. That would be the difference. If you choose not to believe it...your problem.
And I am not taking anything away from the K2. Its one fine amp.

All amplifiers are analog. There is no such thing as a digital amplifier.
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post #119 of 148 Old 01-05-2014, 01:45 PM
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Originally Posted by blazar View Post

Clarify please, i would like to learn more!

Every class d style amp ive owned so far has been rated down to 2ohm loads at much lower price points than many class AB amps at higher price points. I may have made the incorrect assumption that it is easier/cheaper to make a class D amp that handles lower impedances...

Because switching amps are more efficient, they don't need hefty power supplies and as much cooling as an AB biased amp. So they can be made to handle lower impedances for less money.
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post #120 of 148 Old 01-05-2014, 02:05 PM
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Originally Posted by FMW View Post

All amplifiers are analog. There is no such thing as a digital amplifier.

I suggest you tell that to BASH SUB amps and HK,
fyi...I typed PASS and it should have been BASH a few posts back.

Bash 500W Digital Subwoofer Plate Amplifier
ttp://www.parts-express.com/bash-500w-digital-subwoofer-plate-amplifier--300-752
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