2-channel audio only .. Sub or no Sub? - Page 5 - AVS Forum
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post #121 of 148 Old 01-05-2014, 02:32 PM
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Originally Posted by 4DHD View Post

I suggest you tell that to BASH SUB amps and HK,
fyi...I typed PASS and it should have been BASH a few posts back.

Bash 500W Digital Subwoofer Plate Amplifier
ttp://www.parts-express.com/bash-500w-digital-subwoofer-plate-amplifier--300-752

Parts Express is incorrect. Those are not digital amps. They are Class D switching amps. There is no such thing as a digital amp. There is some reading material for you here.
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post #122 of 148 Old 01-05-2014, 02:32 PM
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Originally Posted by 4DHD View Post

Bash 500W Digital Subwoofer Plate Amplifier
ttp://www.parts-express.com/bash-500w-digital-subwoofer-plate-amplifier--300-752
It's a bridged AB output stage with a tracking SMPS.
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post #123 of 148 Old 01-06-2014, 02:46 AM
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Originally Posted by FMW View Post

Parts Express is incorrect. Those are not digital amps. They are Class D switching amps. There is no such thing as a digital amp. There is some reading material for you here.

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Originally Posted by A9X-308 View Post

It's a bridged AB output stage with a tracking SMPS.

No matter if they are AB or D those 500w amps are superb. And unlike the K2, when I was using it, means one less box needing a shelf.
I switched as I needed XOs on the subs for setting up a TT system, through vintage Citation gear.
Now I use a P7 pre that has analog BM.
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post #124 of 148 Old 01-06-2014, 04:51 AM
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Originally Posted by blazar View Post

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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

No, but people often expect too much of SPL meters, such as believing that they are more precise or stable than they are. Acoustic measurements are a snake pit compared to electrical measurements, and electrical measurements could answer this question.

Some amps have inaccurate/incomplete wattage claims and not all amps will drive a speaker with 2ohms impedance. Speakers will often drop to 2 ohms impedance during playback.

Class d amps seem to have the ability to handle low impedance loads really well so despite their wattage comparisons will often give better bass response when it counts.

I'm no electrical engineer so folks feel free to chime in and correct me if I'm wrong.

I am an electrical engineer and I dispute every major fact presented above.

(1) A lot of angst has been created among naive audiophiles based on pure sine wave tests with resistive loads. Music has a far higher crest factor and speaker loads perhaps counter-intuitively tax amplifier heat sinks and power supplies far less. High crest factor means less drain on power supplies and less heating of heat sinks.

(2) Speakers that present 2 ohm loads are like hen's teeth and are arguably badly engineered. Speakers that present 3.5 loads over a narrow band or two are not uncommon. I favor discussing reasonable worst case situations, not blue moons. Speaker impedance curves remain relatively constant despite increases in SPL until really bad things such as voice coils exiting the magnetic field takes place.

(3) Amplifier class is an orthogonal parameter as related to speaker impedance. IOW there are class AB and Class D amplifiers that do well with difficult loads and there are AB and Class D amplifiers that do poorly with difficult loads. As a matter of fact it is common for switchmode power amps to be fitted with time dependent output limiting facilities to enable them to meet their promise for light weight and small size. In other words they are designed to cut their losses and run away if a load/program material situation gets to be too challenging. That's the opposite of what appear to being claimed above.
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post #125 of 148 Old 01-06-2014, 05:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A9X-308 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4DHD View Post

Bash 500W Digital Subwoofer Plate Amplifier
ttp://www.parts-express.com/bash-500w-digital-subwoofer-plate-amplifier--300-752
It's a bridged AB output stage with a tracking SMPS.

+1

and here's your technical confirmation:

http://www.klipsch.com/promedia-5-1-computer-speaker-system/details#specs

"Klipsch ProMedia 5.1 speaker system"

"AMPLIFIER: BASH(r), dual supply"

Best online schematics:

http://www.thompdale.com/bash_amplifier/2-1/2-1_bash_amp.htm

Results

Satellite amplifier



Executive summary - a plain vanilla class AB Bipolar output transistor power amplifier.

Subwoofer amplifier:



Executive summary - a class AB (linear, not switchmode) FET output transistor power amplifier.

I believe that I;ve heard of DASH amps with Class G/H output stages (multistage power supplies but basically linear class AB) but this model does not appear to be one of them.

This page seems to describe a class G/H Bash amp:

http://www.thompdale.com/bash_amplifier/bash_amp.htm




Still a linear power amp with switched power supply voltages.
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post #126 of 148 Old 01-06-2014, 09:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Ysay View Post

As far as benefit, most people would probably say none. But it's a matter of sound preference for me. I like the way my system sound when listening to instrumental music which I like listening to. Using my Monitor Audio Gold as main and a pair of Mirage Omni 60 as secondary creates a much wider sweet spot. Almost the same as using all channel stereo on my HT system when I listen to music there.

Running two sets of speakers simultaneous will increase the total decibel level compared to one set at maximum (or any fixed point) output?

What you got back home, little sister, to play your fuzzy warbles on? I bet you got little save pitiful, portable picnic players. Come with uncle and hear all proper! Hear angel trumpets and devil trombones. You are invited.
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post #127 of 148 Old 01-06-2014, 01:17 PM
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Running two sets of speakers simultaneous will increase the total decibel level compared to one set at maximum (or any fixed point) output?

And will create awful interferances...

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post #128 of 148 Old 01-06-2014, 03:02 PM
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And will create awful interferances...

Just like what I said in my previous post, it is a matter of preference. I'll listen to what sound good to my ears.
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post #129 of 148 Old 01-06-2014, 10:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Ysay View Post

Just like what I said in my previous post, it is a matter of preference. I'll listen to what sound good to my ears.

You'll give up a stable image and the possibilities to decode 2-channel audio as faithfully as it can be? Would it not be better to find a single pair that will yield the frequency response you like and retain those abilities?

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post #130 of 148 Old 01-07-2014, 12:28 AM
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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

I am an electrical engineer and I dispute every major fact presented above.

(1) A lot of angst has been created among naive audiophiles based on pure sine wave tests with resistive loads. Music has a far higher crest factor and speaker loads perhaps counter-intuitively tax amplifier heat sinks and power supplies far less. High crest factor means less drain on power supplies and less heating of heat sinks.

(2) Speakers that present 2 ohm loads are like hen's teeth and are arguably badly engineered. Speakers that present 3.5 loads over a narrow band or two are not uncommon. I favor discussing reasonable worst case situations, not blue moons. Speaker impedance curves remain relatively constant despite increases in SPL until really bad things such as voice coils exiting the magnetic field takes place.

(3) Amplifier class is an orthogonal parameter as related to speaker impedance. IOW there are class AB and Class D amplifiers that do well with difficult loads and there are AB and Class D amplifiers that do poorly with difficult loads. As a matter of fact it is common for switchmode power amps to be fitted with time dependent output limiting facilities to enable them to meet their promise for light weight and small size. In other words they are designed to cut their losses and run away if a load/program material situation gets to be too challenging. That's the opposite of what appear to being claimed above.

Thanks for the informative post!

I am using a Pass Labs 30.5 Class A amplifier... any thoughts on the merits of this on purely technical terms? It does sound great overall, the only amp I have ever owned with zero complaints. I can't say the same about pre-amps that I have owned recently that have various levels of hiss which raise the noise floor (audibly in quiet passages).

I have a stack of Crown XLS "class D" amplifiers for surround channels since I don't care as much about that. They do a find job of very decent sound from the surround channels while not heating up my equipment closet. They also work nicely for my clark synthesis transducers which really add a nice subtle effect when gently used in the 10-40hz range.

Blazar!
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post #131 of 148 Old 01-07-2014, 08:23 AM
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I am using a Pass Labs 30.5 Class A amplifier... any thoughts on the merits of this on purely technical terms?

According to The Pass web site

https://passlabs.com/products/amplifiers/xa.5/xa30.5

The Pass 30.5 is a "30 Watt Class A Stereo" amp.

According to Stereophile, it measures like this:



The first question that formed in my mind was: Where does Pass get off calling this a 30 watt amp?

There are no inflection points that suggest that there is a transition from Class A to something else at 30 watts, for example.

If it was an regular product it might be rated at 0.1% THD which is about 100, 160, and 270 wpc for 8, 4, and 2 ohms.

This test shows totally unexceptional but probably sonically innocuous amounts of distortion that rises above 200 Hz to far higher levels than even a cheap AVR.




Bottom line - to me technically this is just another Why? Amp.
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It does sound great overall,

With the usual run of 8 and 4 ohm speakers it should sound no worse than the AVRs that it technically seems to underperform.
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post #132 of 148 Old 01-07-2014, 12:52 PM
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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

According to The Pass web site

https://passlabs.com/products/amplifiers/xa.5/xa30.5

The Pass 30.5 is a "30 Watt Class A Stereo" amp.

According to Stereophile, it measures like this:



The first question that formed in my mind was: Where does Pass get off calling this a 30 watt amp?

There are no inflection points that suggest that there is a transition from Class A to something else at 30 watts, for example.

If it was an regular product it might be rated at 0.1% THD which is about 100, 160, and 270 wpc for 8, 4, and 2 ohms.

This test shows totally unexceptional but probably sonically innocuous amounts of distortion that rises above 200 Hz to far higher levels than even a cheap AVR.




Bottom line - to me technically this is just another Why? Amp.
With the usual run of 8 and 4 ohm speakers it should sound no worse than the AVRs that it technically seems to underperform.

It runs in pure class A all the time for me because i have 107db sensitivity speakers. It will convert to class AB above 30 watts buy i likely use only 5 watts of power. Distortion within class A range should be very low assuming it has the usual "benefits" of class A.

Blazar!
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post #133 of 148 Old 01-07-2014, 01:05 PM
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Originally Posted by blazar View Post

Distortion within class A range should be very low assuming it has the usual "benefits" of class A.

Well, I'd say it lacks a zero to be counted very low.

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post #134 of 148 Old 01-09-2014, 06:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blazar View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

According to The Pass web site

https://passlabs.com/products/amplifiers/xa.5/xa30.5

The Pass 30.5 is a "30 Watt Class A Stereo" amp.

According to Stereophile, it measures like this:



The first question that formed in my mind was: Where does Pass get off calling this a 30 watt amp?

There are no inflection points that suggest that there is a transition from Class A to something else at 30 watts, for example.

If it was an regular product it might be rated at 0.1% THD which is about 100, 160, and 270 wpc for 8, 4, and 2 ohms.

This test shows totally unexceptional but probably sonically innocuous amounts of distortion that rises above 200 Hz to far higher levels than even a cheap AVR.




Bottom line - to me technically this is just another Why? Amp.
With the usual run of 8 and 4 ohm speakers it should sound no worse than the AVRs that it technically seems to underperform.

It runs in pure class A all the time for me because i have 107db sensitivity speakers. It will convert to class AB above 30 watts buy i likely use only 5 watts of power. Distortion within class A range should be very low assuming it has the usual "benefits" of class A.

The idea that Class A operation guarantees the lowest measured or audible distortion is arguably an audiophile myth.

A class A amplifier is essentially a class AB amplifier that is overbiased.

Cordell and Self, arguably the most forthcoming of all of the good modern designers of low distortion power amps agree that there is a certain fairly minimal amount bias for a class AB amplifier that provides the lowest distortion. Higher bias then this small optimal bias yields higher distortion. IOW class A is suboptimal for low distortion at any power level.

Cordell and Self have the measurements to support their claim, I believe that Self explains it well, and I've seen the very same thing occur on the test bench.
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post #135 of 148 Old 01-09-2014, 07:29 AM
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And will create awful interferances...

comb effect

What you got back home, little sister, to play your fuzzy warbles on? I bet you got little save pitiful, portable picnic players. Come with uncle and hear all proper! Hear angel trumpets and devil trombones. You are invited.
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post #136 of 148 Old 01-09-2014, 08:31 AM
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You'll give up a stable image and the possibilities to decode 2-channel audio as faithfully as it can be? Would it not be better to find a single pair that will yield the frequency response you like and retain those abilities?

I'm very happy with my music setup. I'm sure there are lots of better setup out there but I think I found my sweet spot.

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post #137 of 148 Old 01-09-2014, 09:04 AM
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This makes me think of the old saying (paraphrased): "keep quiet and let others think you a fool, or post a photo and remove all doubt".
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post #138 of 148 Old 01-09-2014, 10:25 AM
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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

The idea that Class A operation guarantees the lowest measured or audible distortion is arguably an audiophile myth.

A class A amplifier is essentially a class AB amplifier that is overbiased.

Cordell and Self, arguably the most forthcoming of all of the good modern designers of low distortion power amps agree that there is a certain fairly minimal amount bias for a class AB amplifier that provides the lowest distortion. Higher bias then this small optimal bias yields higher distortion. IOW class A is suboptimal for low distortion at any power level.

Cordell and Self have the measurements to support their claim, I believe that Self explains it well, and I've seen the very same thing occur on the test bench.

In audio everyone seems to be an "expert" with a unclear concensus on what is true.

I am guessing that you can great sound out of any topology with no definitive "best" but most options are quite good if not great.

I have liked a lot of class D amps i've heard too but that probabaly makes me a partial lunatic on these forums. Even mark levinson and other "big" brands have gone class D after at least a decade of lots of folks saying class D amps sound pretty decent in most situations.
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post #139 of 148 Old 01-09-2014, 01:35 PM
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This makes me think of the old saying (paraphrased): "keep quiet and let others think you a fool, or post a photo and remove all doubt".

Looks awesome, enjoy!


This is a tough crowd.
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What you got back home, little sister, to play your fuzzy warbles on? I bet you got little save pitiful, portable picnic players. Come with uncle and hear all proper! Hear angel trumpets and devil trombones. You are invited.
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post #140 of 148 Old 01-10-2014, 04:54 AM
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In audio everyone seems to be an "expert" with a unclear consensus on what is true.\

Its merely a matter of knowing who to believe. If you believe everybody, then of course there is no consensus. If you figure out who is espousing mainstream audio technology based on reliable sources, you are good and there is a consensus.
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I am guessing that you can great sound out of any topology with no definitive "best" but most options are quite good if not great.

Any is a big word, but if you're saying that there are a lot of different schematics for power amps that if built produce amps that sound both really good and also the same, then you are correct.
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I have liked a lot of class D amps i've heard too but that probably makes me a partial lunatic on these forums.

There are more audible differences in dramatically different relatively new technology, and switchmode is still being developed with beneficial results, It has taken Class D a really long time to work the bugs out - I seem to recall reading my first technical article about it back in the late 1960s. Class D price/performance is fundamentally limited by switching transistor speed and power. and that has moved slowly.
Quote:
Even mark levinson and other "big" brands have gone class D after at least a decade of lots of folks saying class D amps sound pretty decent in most situations.

The key measurement to look at with switchmode amps is frequency response with various loads:

http://www.stereophile.com/content/mark-levinson-no53-reference-monoblock-power-amplifier-measurements



The amplifier shown above does a good job of avoiding audible frequency response variations with a reasonable variety of loads.

And for counterpoint:

http://www.stereophile.com/content/nad-m2-direct-digital-integrated-amplifier-measurements



Actually, only the performance at 2 ohms seems like it would cause audible problems, so problems with just about any reasonable loudspeaker is unlikely.
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post #141 of 148 Old 01-10-2014, 05:36 AM
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Actually, only the performance at 2 ohms seems like it would cause audible problems, so problems with just about any reasonable loudspeaker is unlikely.

I think you were only searching for examples, so this is no real reply, more an addendum.

It seems that it had switchable settings for other impedances, your graph shows problems with 2 ohms in the 8 ohm setting. If set to two ohms, it gave another curve where instead the 8 ohm goes off. Not that it has anything to do with your post, just for the casual reader not to be put off by the NAD due to this single graph.

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post #142 of 148 Old 01-10-2014, 02:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

Actually, only the performance at 2 ohms seems like it would cause audible problems, so problems with just about any reasonable loudspeaker is unlikely.

I think you were only searching for examples, so this is no real reply, more an addendum.

It seems that it had switchable settings for other impedances, your graph shows problems with 2 ohms in the 8 ohm setting. If set to two ohms, it gave another curve where instead the 8 ohm goes off. Not that it has anything to do with your post, just for the casual reader not to be put off by the NAD due to this single graph.

All true. As the other SP test results show, clearly audible high frequency response artifacts can result from setting the impedance compensation switch inappropriately. Makes the point that not all Class D (switchmode) amplifiers are as uniformly non-crtiical as their linear (Class AB/G/H) brothers.
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post #143 of 148 Old 01-11-2014, 10:46 AM
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. Makes the point that not all Class D (switchmode) amplifiers are as uniformly non-crtiical as their linear (Class AB/G/H) brothers.

And a very good point that is. Makes me wonder how much differently my Pioneer receiver with ICE power stages handles the different loads on different channels...

But I could definitely live with the NAD M2 driving my computer speaker if I ever find one at a decent price.

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post #144 of 148 Old 01-13-2014, 02:40 AM
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This page seems to describe a class G/H Bash amp:

http://www.thompdale.com/bash_amplifier/bash_amp.htm



Still a linear power amp with switched power supply voltages.
I've seen conflicting definitions, but this summary seems as good as any:
Quote:
BASH is actually an implementation of a Class H amplifier. Class G refers to multi-step rail voltages whereas Class H is defined as an amp with rail voltages that is modulated by the input signal.

It also appears BASH stipulates bridge mode operation, whereas Class H does not, so it would be more specific to just say BASH when referring to the pictured amp. And the term Class G does not pertain to this case as the supply is not stepped but uses modulated tracking. (More info on the companion supply at the link you provided.)

.
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post #145 of 148 Old 01-13-2014, 04:49 AM
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^^ So just like I said in post 122.
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post #146 of 148 Old 02-09-2014, 06:38 AM
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I'm trying to figure out what SOTA (which is mentioned above numerous times) is, means or stands for but I can't find any explanation. Could someone help me out? Is it a manufacturer of subwoofers?

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post #147 of 148 Old 02-09-2014, 06:45 AM
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I'm trying to figure out what SOTA (which is mentioned above numerous times) is, means or stands for but I can't find any explanation. Could someone help me out? Is it a manufacturer of subwoofers?

In audio - State Of The Art
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post #148 of 148 Old 02-09-2014, 06:50 AM
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Thank you! I'm new to the forum. Figured I'd try to learn more about HIFI finally, and so I registered here as a part of that effort. I found you and you seem to be both knowledable and appropriately sceptical so I've been reading comments of yours (as well as a few other users). So consider yourself stalked! In any case, thanks again!

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