2-channel audio only .. Sub or no Sub? - Page 6 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Baselworld is only a few weeks away. Getting the latest news is easy, Click Here for info on how to join the Watchuseek.com newsletter list. Follow our team for updates featuring event coverage, new product unveilings, watch industry news & more!


Forum Jump: 
 9Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #151 of 173 Old 04-09-2015, 03:05 PM
Senior Member
 
clpetersen's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 269
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 86 Post(s)
Liked: 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by eljr View Post
one is all that is "needed"

Two is fun and it's a hobby and yeah it can smooth out the sound but don't let anyone tell you it's a need.

It's not.

You can get plenty of base and improved mid and highs by upgrading your mains so if you have enough money for 2 subs, upgrade the mains instead.
Very good points, thanks. Since I like the Aerials, the next upgrade is the 7T's, which moves the -3dB point down to 28 Hz. Something to think about. Likely will try a single sub first (eval unit from our local Aerial dealer) then decide.
clpetersen is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #152 of 173 Old 04-12-2015, 05:20 PM
Member
 
Wildcat445's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: By the lake in SCS, MI
Posts: 57
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Liked: 14
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flt Simulation View Post
This may be kind of a silly question, but do you think a 2-channel home audio system really benefits much by also having a powered subwoofer?<br><br>
I realize that a sub is needed in a home theator system to bring out all the explosions and various sound effects in these HD movies, but how about a sub with a 2-channel music only system? .... no movies, no tv<br><br>
I will be using a pair of Polk RTi A7 fronts and a pair of Polk RTi A3 rears. The front speakers are powered by a separate 100 w/ch (8 ohms) power amp, and the rear speakers are also powered by there own separate 100 w/ch power amp.<br><br>
Seems to me almost everyone nowdays is using these audio systems for a combo of music and home theator, so I can see why they usually include a dedicated sub ... but again, my system is music only.<br><br>
Sub ... good idea ... waste of money?<br><br>
Thank's <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/images/smilies/smile.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="Smilie"><br><br>
BTW ... Some may ask why I am using 4 speakers with 2-channel music ... I just like the sound better (more "spacious" sounding to me). No other reason.
I am rather late to this party, but I have toyed on and off with a sub in my system, and after all the fussing and such, a sub just colors the music too much. And it is also speaker dependent. Some systems can benefit from a subwoofers. Others, if there is too much overlap or the room is interacting, it can sound like mud. My current speakers cover the full range, so there is no need for a sub.

Sure, it was fun to crank up some low notes (I used to be able to shred paper using the subwoofer's port ), but my system these days is more about a realistic presentation of the music. My current speakers are about to be phased out in favor of some electrostatics (I'm about halfway through refurbishing them), so if I do find the bass to be lacking, I would tend to get one of the better subwoofer models from the same company. And, I would buy two, one per side, time-aligned with each left/right speaker. (And no, I don't use digital anything once it leaves the Oppo 105's analog output.) It is also important that the subwoofer be more powerful than the main left/right channel amp, even though I would not have them cranked up.
Wildcat445 is offline  
post #153 of 173 Old 04-12-2015, 05:36 PM
AVS Special Member
 
blazar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: USA
Posts: 3,281
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 584 Post(s)
Liked: 434
99% of main speakers and rooms I have ever used benefit from a sub. The setup can defintely be done without "coloring the music". To think otherwise is simply laziness.

How do you think the original speaker maker got the bass drivers in there without coloring the music? Magic maybe?

You do often need to use measurements, eq, and dual to quad subs ... To get it right. You don't want "double bass" so a proper high pass filter is necessary.

simplest way to get very decent bass:
Quad subs (one in each corner)
Run audyssey to set individual sub delays.
Add a little or subtract a little bass to taste. I personally like about +5db below 120hz.
eljr and Red99 like this.
blazar is offline  
post #154 of 173 Old 04-12-2015, 07:43 PM
AVS Special Member
 
A9X-308's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Australia
Posts: 5,922
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 428 Post(s)
Liked: 277
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wildcat445 View Post
I am rather late to this party, but I have toyed on and off with a sub in my system, and after all the fussing and such, a sub just colors the music too much. And it is also speaker dependent. Some systems can benefit from a subwoofers. Others, if there is too much overlap or the room is interacting, it can sound like mud.
If you don't have a high pass filter on your mains and roll the sub in separately, you're doing it wrong. Adding one or more subs to a system should take your speaker system up one 'way'. If your mains are 3 way, adding subs makes the system a 4 way, just with the advantage of having the subs in a position where they work best in the room for LF, and your mains where they work best for imaging. The two lowest frequency drivers should not overlap.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wildcat445 View Post
My current speakers cover the full range, so there is no need for a sub.
So are mine, with a pair of long excursion low distortion 15" drivers in each, and adding subs makes a very worthwhile difference even for modern (rock etc) music that seldom has much content below low E on the bass guitar. This offers several advantages: with no overlap, you have no multiple sources that will vary all over the place in terms of phase, FR and timing (esp if you have no way to adjust individual delays). Speakers when measured for their published specs are typically done at 1W or 2.83V: this is not what they'll be when pushing output towards maximum.

For a given SPL, a speaker will need to displace 4x the volume of air at F/2 versus F. So, using my mains as an example, are flat to 40Hz. If I bring the subs in at 80Hz, and HPF the mains there as well, the higher excursions will be given to the subs, which tend to have much higher Vd (volume displacement), reducing the excursion of the LF driver in the mains as well as distortion. This is especially important for small 2 way mains that may not cross until 2kHz+. All drivers distort more the further they move from their rest position; how much and what type of distortion depends upon the driver design, but it's true for all of them. Also if your mains are ported, upping the xover point will eliminate any port noise/chuffing and uncontrolled over excursion of the mains LF driver below tune (all ported speakers do this).
kiwi2 likes this.
A9X-308 is offline  
post #155 of 173 Old 04-13-2015, 12:17 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Nightlord's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Southern Sweden
Posts: 2,165
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 524 Post(s)
Liked: 189
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wildcat445 View Post
I am rather late to this party, but I have toyed on and off with a sub in my system, and after all the fussing and such, a sub just colors the music too much. And it is also speaker dependent. Some systems can benefit from a subwoofers. Others, if there is too much overlap or the room is interacting, it can sound like mud. My current speakers cover the full range, so there is no need for a sub.
Sounds like several possible mistakes at one time. As already commented on, you do best not to use the fronts at the same time as subs.

A big mistake is "a sub". One is three too few, imo. Several benefits at once with larger numbers.

My fronts are full range too - to the point that when I don't run the crossover for subs (I can choose with a single flip switch between full range fronts, or subs with HP crossover for fonts) that I think the subs are active when they aren't.

Here's a couple of graphs from my livingroom, top one is main speakers fullrange, bottom one is with my 8 subs (NHT 1259 12" closed) active:


Last possible mistake areas would of course be what the quality of that sub... and if the crossover is sufficently sharp (quite common that they aren't unfortunately).

Under construction: the Larch theater
Nightlord is offline  
post #156 of 173 Old 04-13-2015, 03:41 AM
AVS Special Member
 
fatbottom's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: UK
Posts: 5,224
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1075 Post(s)
Liked: 441
Using one of these between my analogue stereo pre and 2 channel power amplifiers, with RCA to the sub, subwoofer crossover disabled

https://www.outlawaudio.com/products/icbm.html

Have floorstanders previous speakers were standmounts. Helps with subwoofer integration and cutting out LF from speakers which I find with floorstanders + sub (and even standmounts) create bit too much boom, either because of room gain, speakers too big for the room, or speakers trying to play below capability.

Pivetta Opera
Bose Jewel speakers.
fatbottom is online now  
post #157 of 173 Old 04-13-2015, 05:13 AM
AVS Special Member
 
eljr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Futuristic London
Posts: 5,940
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 665 Post(s)
Liked: 3870
Quote:
Originally Posted by blazar View Post
99% of main speakers and rooms i have ever used benefit from a sub. the setup can defintely be done without "coloring the music". .
qft

What you got back home, little sister, to play your fuzzy warbles on? I bet you got little save pitiful, portable picnic players. Come with uncle and hear all proper! Hear angel trumpets and devil trombones. You are invited.
eljr is offline  
post #158 of 173 Old 04-13-2015, 01:23 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: United States
Posts: 204
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 81 Post(s)
Liked: 73
I prefer subs with the mains

15 years ago I replaced my floor monsters with Infinity Overture 1 speakers--kids will be kids so I went smaller. Flat to 35Hz with an 8 inch powered woofer in the side. Alas, they would strain with deep bass so I bought a sub "to protect the mains" as I told my wife. Crossed them at 70Hz after doing the "sub crawl" and no more strain with higher outputs and deeper bass response.

Still have the Overture 1 speakers but have changed the sub along the way. Eventually the Overtures will fail so I'll be getting some SG 88 Specials to replace them. After hauling massive speakers around the world...nice to be able to have so many more placement options to improve the sound.

If a sub really bothers you, just cross it over where your mains don't produce bass--be it 40Hz or 35Hz. Since it another factor, you must set it up correctly but you'll get "missing octaves" and less strain on the main woofers as a reward.
18Hurts is online now  
post #159 of 173 Old 04-23-2015, 11:30 AM
Member
 
indydieselnut's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 25
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11 Post(s)
Liked: 29
Always been difficult

I'm following this thread with interest as I've never had success integrating a sub for 2-channel stereo reproduction. I'm sure it's my own deficiency or lack of determination, but it has never come together for me. As a cellist, one of the obstacles I've faced is that so many subs I've tried to integrate cross over to the towers/monitors right in the range of the lowest string. Right when the instrument should have tremendous impact, the sound would be lumpy and diffuse. It sounds like you are getting great advice from members with far more experience - good luck!

"The problem with the world is me" - G.K. Chesterton
indydieselnut is offline  
post #160 of 173 Old 04-23-2015, 03:15 PM
AVS Special Member
 
eljr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Futuristic London
Posts: 5,940
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 665 Post(s)
Liked: 3870
Quote:
Originally Posted by indydieselnut View Post
I'm following this thread with interest as I've never had success integrating a sub for 2-channel stereo reproduction. I'm sure it's my own deficiency or lack of determination, but it has never come together for me. As a cellist, one of the obstacles I've faced is that so many subs I've tried to integrate cross over to the towers/monitors right in the range of the lowest string. Right when the instrument should have tremendous impact, the sound would be lumpy and diffuse. It sounds like you are getting great advice from members with far more experience - good luck!

Run your towers large and set the crossover frequency a little above where you normally would given the speaker specs.

Should do it.

BTW, a cellist? Way cool.

What you got back home, little sister, to play your fuzzy warbles on? I bet you got little save pitiful, portable picnic players. Come with uncle and hear all proper! Hear angel trumpets and devil trombones. You are invited.
eljr is offline  
post #161 of 173 Old 04-24-2015, 06:46 AM
Member
 
indydieselnut's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 25
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11 Post(s)
Liked: 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by eljr View Post
Run your towers large and set the crossover frequency a little above where you normally would given the speaker specs.

Should do it.

BTW, a cellist? Way cool.
Thanks for the tip! My issue is I'm not running a pre/pro in a theater, just a straight-ahead 2-channel audio setup. Benchmark DAC2 HGC to a Bryston 4B-SST2 into my soon-to-be-arrive Tekton Pendragons. I don't think I'll need the sub with the Pens but, in the past, I was always relying on the EQ features in the sub and careful room placement. It never worked for me, but I think I might be particularly difficult to please in that transition from mans to sub.

Yup, a cellist who runs a violin shop. I do love it! The sound of string instruments is very important to me. Thanks again for your input!

"The problem with the world is me" - G.K. Chesterton
indydieselnut is offline  
post #162 of 173 Old 04-24-2015, 07:21 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Nightlord's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Southern Sweden
Posts: 2,165
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 524 Post(s)
Liked: 189
Quote:
Originally Posted by indydieselnut View Post
I'm following this thread with interest as I've never had success integrating a sub for 2-channel stereo reproduction. I'm sure it's my own deficiency or lack of determination, but it has never come together for me. As a cellist, one of the obstacles I've faced is that so many subs I've tried to integrate cross over to the towers/monitors right in the range of the lowest string. Right when the instrument should have tremendous impact, the sound would be lumpy and diffuse. It sounds like you are getting great advice from members with far more experience - good luck!

Not something I would worry about with my crossover and subs - as the speaker designer behind them is a cellist himself, too.
indydieselnut likes this.

Under construction: the Larch theater
Nightlord is offline  
post #163 of 173 Old 04-24-2015, 08:16 AM
Member
 
indydieselnut's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 25
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11 Post(s)
Liked: 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightlord View Post
Not something I would worry about with my crossover and subs - as the speaker designer behind them is a cellist himself, too.
Very cool! I tried to find your equipment in your profile but I'm not very familiar with how AVS works - what speakers do you have that were designed by a cellist?

"The problem with the world is me" - G.K. Chesterton
indydieselnut is offline  
post #164 of 173 Old 04-24-2015, 08:22 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Nightlord's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Southern Sweden
Posts: 2,165
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 524 Post(s)
Liked: 189
Quote:
Originally Posted by indydieselnut View Post
Very cool! I tried to find your equipment in your profile but I'm not very familiar with how AVS works - what speakers do you have that were designed by a cellist?
Guess I haven't made a list there.

My speakers are quite rare and only available in Sweden from a one-man company called Ino Audio.

There is a commercialized version called Guru audio, but they have only a few models, and the subs and crossover are not part of that project.

So unfortunately, if you don't plan to visit Stockholm on one of the few demo nights per year, and then come back to Sweden and pick the things up when they've been made (very few models in stock) you're out of luck. (I have heard of someone who did just that from Australia, though... )
indydieselnut likes this.

Under construction: the Larch theater
Nightlord is offline  
post #165 of 173 Old 04-24-2015, 08:36 AM
Member
 
indydieselnut's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 25
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11 Post(s)
Liked: 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightlord View Post
Guess I haven't made a list there.

My speakers are quite rare and only available in Sweden from a one-man company called Ino Audio.

There is a commercialized version called Guru audio, but they have only a few models, and the subs and crossover are not part of that project.

So unfortunately, if you don't plan to visit Stockholm on one of the few demo nights per year, and then come back to Sweden and pick the things up when they've been made (very few models in stock) you're out of luck. (I have heard of someone who did just that from Australia, though... )
Sounds like you are onto something quite special. I'll stick to what's available here in the US for now, but thank you for the information!

"The problem with the world is me" - G.K. Chesterton
indydieselnut is offline  
post #166 of 173 Old 04-24-2015, 02:23 PM
AVS Special Member
 
kiwi2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 1,666
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 35 Post(s)
Liked: 155
Quote:
Originally Posted by indydieselnut View Post
I was always relying on the EQ features in the sub and careful room placement.
Did you have frequency response measurements of your room while you were doing this?


Did you have a low pass filter to the sub and a high pass filter to the speakers?


Did you mean applying PEQ or just EQ? EQ at 1/3 octave is too crude to help with bass frequencies.
kiwi2 is offline  
post #167 of 173 Old 04-25-2015, 06:41 AM
Member
 
indydieselnut's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 25
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11 Post(s)
Liked: 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by kiwi2 View Post
Did you have frequency response measurements of your room while you were doing this?


Did you have a low pass filter to the sub and a high pass filter to the speakers?


Did you mean applying PEQ or just EQ? EQ at 1/3 octave is too crude to help with bass frequencies.
I did have frequency response measurements, I did have low pass and high pass, and I'm not sure what EQ tools were available in the sub's interface.

I appreciate the advice, but as I'm not running a sub right now I'll turn this back over to everyone else. I'm still going to follow the thread for the future though - thanks!

"The problem with the world is me" - G.K. Chesterton
indydieselnut is offline  
post #168 of 173 Old 04-26-2015, 07:22 PM
Advanced Member
 
JA Fant's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Prattville AL
Posts: 754
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 101 Post(s)
Liked: 105
OP-


scrap the Polk speakers and buy something from Thiel- you will never look back.
eljr likes this.
JA Fant is offline  
post #169 of 173 Old 04-27-2015, 09:03 AM
Newbie
 
kellytechme's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 8
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 0
I concur

Good luck finding the money for that though
kellytechme is offline  
post #170 of 173 Old 04-30-2015, 04:06 PM
AVS Special Member
 
eljr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Futuristic London
Posts: 5,940
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 665 Post(s)
Liked: 3870
Quote:
Originally Posted by JA Fant View Post
OP-


scrap the Polk speakers
Amen

What you got back home, little sister, to play your fuzzy warbles on? I bet you got little save pitiful, portable picnic players. Come with uncle and hear all proper! Hear angel trumpets and devil trombones. You are invited.
eljr is offline  
post #171 of 173 Old 04-30-2015, 05:19 PM
AVS Special Member
 
lovinthehd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: OROR
Posts: 9,937
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1684 Post(s)
Liked: 2187
Quote:
Originally Posted by JA Fant View Post
OP-


scrap the Polk speakers and buy something from Thiel- you will never look back.
OP hasn't posted on AVS for almost 3 years.

You forgot to add a subwoofer to those Thiels, though
eljr likes this.
lovinthehd is online now  
post #172 of 173 Old 06-22-2015, 09:12 PM
Member
 
CSG123's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 63
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18 Post(s)
Liked: 19
I hate low end and prefer the sounds from smaller bookshelf speakers. I don't/won't use a sub. All of the speakers I'm running give me all the bass I want. I even back the bass down on my amps.

Guess I'm not the right person to ask.
CSG123 is offline  
post #173 of 173 Old 06-23-2015, 08:14 PM
Advanced Member
 
Red99's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Pacific Northwest
Posts: 974
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 571 Post(s)
Liked: 377
Unless you have some Heavy Duty Floor Standers that will reach down to 20 Hz, I would say use 2 or 4 subs. Placing them in the middle of 4 walls will give less boom than in 4 corners. The thing about the subs, you can always dial them down to where the bass is just right for you with the gain and with crossover settings. You dont have to shake the pictures off the wall. But it also depends on your music. If you are listening to some Honky Tonk, then subs may be a waste of money. If you just want a little bass, then get a pair of 10 or 12 inch sealed subs.

I claim not to be a audio expert, just a AVS forum fan.


SOUND: Marantz AV-7702 Pre/Pro, McIntosh MC1706 Amp,
(2) Klipsch RF7-II's, (2) Funk Audio 18.0 subs

VIDEO:
Samsung PN64F8500 Plasma TV, Oppo 103D Blue Ray Player
Red99 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply 2-Channel Audio



Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off