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post #151 of 158 Old 04-09-2015, 03:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eljr View Post
one is all that is "needed"

Two is fun and it's a hobby and yeah it can smooth out the sound but don't let anyone tell you it's a need.

It's not.

You can get plenty of base and improved mid and highs by upgrading your mains so if you have enough money for 2 subs, upgrade the mains instead.
Very good points, thanks. Since I like the Aerials, the next upgrade is the 7T's, which moves the -3dB point down to 28 Hz. Something to think about. Likely will try a single sub first (eval unit from our local Aerial dealer) then decide.
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post #152 of 158 Old Yesterday, 05:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Flt Simulation View Post
This may be kind of a silly question, but do you think a 2-channel home audio system really benefits much by also having a powered subwoofer?<br><br>
I realize that a sub is needed in a home theator system to bring out all the explosions and various sound effects in these HD movies, but how about a sub with a 2-channel music only system? .... no movies, no tv<br><br>
I will be using a pair of Polk RTi A7 fronts and a pair of Polk RTi A3 rears. The front speakers are powered by a separate 100 w/ch (8 ohms) power amp, and the rear speakers are also powered by there own separate 100 w/ch power amp.<br><br>
Seems to me almost everyone nowdays is using these audio systems for a combo of music and home theator, so I can see why they usually include a dedicated sub ... but again, my system is music only.<br><br>
Sub ... good idea ... waste of money?<br><br>
Thank's <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/images/smilies/smile.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="Smilie"><br><br>
BTW ... Some may ask why I am using 4 speakers with 2-channel music ... I just like the sound better (more "spacious" sounding to me). No other reason.
I am rather late to this party, but I have toyed on and off with a sub in my system, and after all the fussing and such, a sub just colors the music too much. And it is also speaker dependent. Some systems can benefit from a subwoofers. Others, if there is too much overlap or the room is interacting, it can sound like mud. My current speakers cover the full range, so there is no need for a sub.

Sure, it was fun to crank up some low notes (I used to be able to shred paper using the subwoofer's port ), but my system these days is more about a realistic presentation of the music. My current speakers are about to be phased out in favor of some electrostatics (I'm about halfway through refurbishing them), so if I do find the bass to be lacking, I would tend to get one of the better subwoofer models from the same company. And, I would buy two, one per side, time-aligned with each left/right speaker. (And no, I don't use digital anything once it leaves the Oppo 105's analog output.) It is also important that the subwoofer be more powerful than the main left/right channel amp, even though I would not have them cranked up.
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post #153 of 158 Old Yesterday, 05:36 PM
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99% of main speakers and rooms I have ever used benefit from a sub. The setup can defintely be done without "coloring the music". To think otherwise is simply laziness.

How do you think the original speaker maker got the bass drivers in there without coloring the music? Magic maybe?

You do often need to use measurements, eq, and dual to quad subs ... To get it right. You don't want "double bass" so a proper high pass filter is necessary.

simplest way to get very decent bass:
Quad subs (one in each corner)
Run audyssey to set individual sub delays.
Add a little or subtract a little bass to taste. I personally like about +5db below 120hz.
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post #154 of 158 Old Yesterday, 07:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wildcat445 View Post
I am rather late to this party, but I have toyed on and off with a sub in my system, and after all the fussing and such, a sub just colors the music too much. And it is also speaker dependent. Some systems can benefit from a subwoofers. Others, if there is too much overlap or the room is interacting, it can sound like mud.
If you don't have a high pass filter on your mains and roll the sub in separately, you're doing it wrong. Adding one or more subs to a system should take your speaker system up one 'way'. If your mains are 3 way, adding subs makes the system a 4 way, just with the advantage of having the subs in a position where they work best in the room for LF, and your mains where they work best for imaging. The two lowest frequency drivers should not overlap.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wildcat445 View Post
My current speakers cover the full range, so there is no need for a sub.
So are mine, with a pair of long excursion low distortion 15" drivers in each, and adding subs makes a very worthwhile difference even for modern (rock etc) music that seldom has much content below low E on the bass guitar. This offers several advantages: with no overlap, you have no multiple sources that will vary all over the place in terms of phase, FR and timing (esp if you have no way to adjust individual delays). Speakers when measured for their published specs are typically done at 1W or 2.83V: this is not what they'll be when pushing output towards maximum.

For a given SPL, a speaker will need to displace 4x the volume of air at F/2 versus F. So, using my mains as an example, are flat to 40Hz. If I bring the subs in at 80Hz, and HPF the mains there as well, the higher excursions will be given to the subs, which tend to have much higher Vd (volume displacement), reducing the excursion of the LF driver in the mains as well as distortion. This is especially important for small 2 way mains that may not cross until 2kHz+. All drivers distort more the further they move from their rest position; how much and what type of distortion depends upon the driver design, but it's true for all of them. Also if your mains are ported, upping the xover point will eliminate any port noise/chuffing and uncontrolled over excursion of the mains LF driver below tune (all ported speakers do this).
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post #155 of 158 Old Today, 12:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wildcat445 View Post
I am rather late to this party, but I have toyed on and off with a sub in my system, and after all the fussing and such, a sub just colors the music too much. And it is also speaker dependent. Some systems can benefit from a subwoofers. Others, if there is too much overlap or the room is interacting, it can sound like mud. My current speakers cover the full range, so there is no need for a sub.
Sounds like several possible mistakes at one time. As already commented on, you do best not to use the fronts at the same time as subs.

A big mistake is "a sub". One is three too few, imo. Several benefits at once with larger numbers.

My fronts are full range too - to the point that when I don't run the crossover for subs (I can choose with a single flip switch between full range fronts, or subs with HP crossover for fonts) that I think the subs are active when they aren't.

Here's a couple of graphs from my livingroom, top one is main speakers fullrange, bottom one is with my 8 subs (NHT 1259 12" closed) active:


Last possible mistake areas would of course be what the quality of that sub... and if the crossover is sufficently sharp (quite common that they aren't unfortunately).

Under construction: the Larch theater
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post #156 of 158 Old Today, 03:41 AM
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Using one of these between my analogue stereo pre and 2 channel power amplifiers, with RCA to the sub, subwoofer crossover disabled

https://www.outlawaudio.com/products/icbm.html

Have floorstanders previous speakers were standmounts. Helps with subwoofer integration and cutting out LF from speakers which I find with floorstanders + sub (and even standmounts) create bit too much boom, either because of room gain, speakers too big for the room, or speakers trying to play below capability.

Pivetta Opera
Bose Jewel speakers.
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post #157 of 158 Old Today, 05:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blazar View Post
99% of main speakers and rooms i have ever used benefit from a sub. the setup can defintely be done without "coloring the music". .
qft

What you got back home, little sister, to play your fuzzy warbles on? I bet you got little save pitiful, portable picnic players. Come with uncle and hear all proper! Hear angel trumpets and devil trombones. You are invited.
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post #158 of 158 Unread Today, 01:23 PM
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I prefer subs with the mains

15 years ago I replaced my floor monsters with Infinity Overture 1 speakers--kids will be kids so I went smaller. Flat to 35Hz with an 8 inch powered woofer in the side. Alas, they would strain with deep bass so I bought a sub "to protect the mains" as I told my wife. Crossed them at 70Hz after doing the "sub crawl" and no more strain with higher outputs and deeper bass response.

Still have the Overture 1 speakers but have changed the sub along the way. Eventually the Overtures will fail so I'll be getting some SG 88 Specials to replace them. After hauling massive speakers around the world...nice to be able to have so many more placement options to improve the sound.

If a sub really bothers you, just cross it over where your mains don't produce bass--be it 40Hz or 35Hz. Since it another factor, you must set it up correctly but you'll get "missing octaves" and less strain on the main woofers as a reward.
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