Considering starting a Speaker Cable company - thoughts? - Page 6 - AVS Forum
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post #151 of 154 Old 06-27-2012, 04:59 AM
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Originally Posted by jwatte View Post

It seems to me that arnyk uses the same kind of arguing to defend redbook, as Rob and others use to defend ridiculous cables.

Then I'm in pretty good company!

It is clear that you have your standards that many of us think are based on prejudice and rumor, and not on any silly thing like proper listening tests or an understanding of the meaning of the reelvant technology.
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If I really am sure of my thing, and am comfortable with actual analytical discussion, what I do is meet the discussion on the terms of the discussion, with the actual subject matter, ignoring any small formal failings like typos or whatnot, stating explicitly what I assume, if I have to assume something about a particular claim. I believe I have done this in all of my statements and claims. I wish the same could be said for all the counter-arguments.

The counterpoint is that some find you to be a legend in your own mind. ;-)

If you seriously think you have some kind of superior command of audio technology, then you are in a logic-proof box.
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People who argue in the other way tend to set of alarm bells for me -- they are too sure, and too unwilling to discuss the actual claims

LOL! If you want to talk actual claims, then bring them on. I don't know if you are capable of understanding that this of yours post I'm responding to is completely free of significant or relevant technical content. Some of us might consider it to be more like a, well, ahh, err.. Pity Party.

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and instead keep veering into semi-related pseudo-arguments.

Or in this most recent offering from you, totally unrelated non-arguments! ;-)
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That's a pretty sure sign of dogma (or, if you will, religion,) and actually do nothing to convince me of their position.

You might be unconvincable.

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On the relevance of phase, in addition to the difference between linear phase and IIR phase in EQ, I also posit that the ears use phase, even more than loudness, for stereo localization of sounds.

Oh, so now you get to posit your favorite hobby-horse beliefs based on what, and the annals of psaychoacoustics can take a flying leap?

How about some relevant tasty supporting documentation from Zwicker and Fastl?
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This has been used and exploited for twenty to thirty years, and extends way up into the treble.

Except for the fact that above a KHz or two, the ears loose the ability to sense phase. They become spectrum analyzers that output just the real part of the transformation. If the phase difference doesn't create an corresponding frequency response issue, then its not very audible or totally inaudible.
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Thus, relative phase between the ears matters.

Since nobody in their right mind intentionally puts a IIR filter in one channel and a FIR in the other and expects accurate reproduction, what are you talking about?

Please restrict yourself to common sense situations such as those where people put the most identical filters they can in both channels.

It is an observable truth that phase shift within broad limits is inaudible providing it is identically applied to both channels, which BTW is what most people do in components like digital music players and the DSPs in AVRs.
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post #152 of 154 Old 06-28-2012, 04:10 PM
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If you seriously think you have some kind of superior command of audio technology

That is not my claim. I have made a specific inquiry about limitations of the currently reigning mathematical model, and I have lamented that I haven't actually been able to find any references to anything that tries to move beyond that model.

When I ask specifically about feedback on this claim, I get told that what matters is some selection of real-world listening tests, not mathematical models. I think the quest for fidelity may be a little more grayscale than that, and am interested in exploring the mathematics, in the hope that it may perhaps spawn interesting physical implementations later.
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in this most recent offering from you, totally unrelated non-arguments!

What I've been trying to do is come up with analogies that gets my question across in a way that I can actually get an answer. However, I think that this might just be the wrong crowd to actually get an answer to this particular question from. It's certainly the wrong thread to get an answer in, I'll admit that up-front!
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above a KHz or two, the ears loose the ability to sense phase

Out to what degree? Clearly there's some degree where phase differences are detectable in the time domain as sequential events.
I'd appreciate a citation as well if possible.

However, going back and thinking about it, my claim about the importance of higher sampling rates may have more to do with the inadequacies of real sample reconstruction filters (and recording anti-aliasing filters) causing detectable amplitude changes or IMD, than the phase differences being detectable by themselves.
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which BTW is what most people do in components like digital music players and the DSPs in AVRs

Just because SONY makes a big button to mangle your sound doesn't mean it's a good idea...


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post #153 of 154 Old 06-28-2012, 04:36 PM
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Originally Posted by jwatte 
Out to what degree? Clearly there's some degree where phase differences are detectable in the time domain as sequential events.

Yes, phase variations are audible below 1-2 KHz.
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I'd appreciate a citation as well if possible.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Group_delay_and_phase_delay
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However, going back and thinking about it, my claim about the importance of higher sampling rates may have more to do with the inadequacies of real sample reconstruction filters (and recording anti-aliasing filters) causing detectable amplitude changes or IMD, than the phase differences being detectable by themselves.

I'm wondering how long its going to take for you to realize that higher sampling rates than 44.1 KHz have no sonic importance to prerecorded media. If you spent some time actually trying to hear the difference in a proper listening test you would learn something. However, you have demonstrated no interest in actually finding this out for yourself. Pontificating and posit-ing is easier than even the easiest of listening test experiments, it seems.
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Just because SONY makes a big button to mangle your sound doesn't mean it's a good idea...

Again, with your prejudices, which sound like high end audio dogma in full control, you've missed the point. DSPs can be programmed to mangle sound, and they can also be programmed to do very useful things, such as implementing near-perfect ganged volume controls.
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post #154 of 154 Old 06-29-2012, 09:29 PM
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I find it amusing that some people seem to hold the phase relationship present on an audio recording sacrosanct, as if what was committed to CD or vinyl was some sort of religious document. As if what was committed to CD bore any resemblance to the phase relationships present at the time of recording, indeed even if all components of the recording were captured live simultaneously, which is rare.

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