best sub for a 2.0 music-only system around $750 or less? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 44 Old 06-11-2012, 07:34 PM - Thread Starter
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i hate to start 2 threads in a day - but it seems to make more sense than putting two completely different problems in the same thread...

im looking for a powered sub to add to my 2 channel music setup.

the hardware is as follows:

marantz pm8004
marantz sa8004
paradigm studio 60
rega p6
chord rca's

i demo'd some of the paradigm monitor subs, and i thought the 12 sounded beefy enough. $1000 is a little more than id like to spend, but ive seen it online as cheap as 750, which is about as much as id like to spend

any advice and input would be appreciated!

thanks!

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post #2 of 44 Old 06-11-2012, 09:35 PM
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The Emotiva X-Ref 12 and SVS SB12-NSD are the two subs regularly recommended on the AVS subwoofer forum in your price range for 2 channel audio use. And yes. Most people there would agree that the Paradigm subs are over priced for what you get, and the Sub 12 is likely no better than these other two. Personally, I'd go with the SB12 because

(a) The X-Ref has a limiter that makes it roll off faster at 30hz and below, although this is not critical for 99.9% of the 2 channel music out there.
(b) The SB12 does have the option of letting you run the pre-out on your receiver to the sub and sending the signal back (connect on your power amp input) with an 80hz high pass filter applied; most subs only have an adjustable low pass filter.

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post #3 of 44 Old 06-11-2012, 10:31 PM
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you should also check out the outlaw audio subs. their lfm-1 ex sub. for 650 it is a lot of sub. the svs subs are also good. Anything from hsu research in the same price range is also well designed.
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post #4 of 44 Old 06-12-2012, 05:42 AM
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I have an Outlaw Audio EX. It's a very good sub. But the smaller SB12 and X Ref-12 sealed subs will sound better for music use.

The advantage of the EX would be if you have a very large space/room. As a larger ported sub, it has a lot more output than the smaller 12" sealed subs. And it will also have solid output down below 20hz, although most people don't need that frequency extension for 2 channel audio.

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post #5 of 44 Old 06-12-2012, 07:29 AM
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As far as I am concerned, there are two subs I can recommend; the Rythmic FV-12 and the NHT B12D. Both sell for around $600 and are excellent.

I am using the NHT B12D with a pair of PSB Image T6 speakers, and the sub performs flawlessly; never any sign of overload or distortion, even at very high levels. The NHT is an acoustic suspension design, very unusual for a sub, which results in smaller size (14" cube), and relatively non-critical placement due to no porting. It also has an impressive 500 watt RMS amplifier.
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post #6 of 44 Old 06-12-2012, 09:12 AM - Thread Starter
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really like the look and price of the NHT - thats a serious contender.

im really not into a ported sub as i feel like they are never quite as "precise." plus its a small room and a modest 70wpc amp, its not like i want to watch home theater cranked.

any good reviews of said sub kicking around?

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post #7 of 44 Old 06-12-2012, 09:24 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lifeis11 View Post

really like the look and price of the NHT - thats a serious contender.
im really not into a ported sub as i feel like they are never quite as "precise." plus its a small room and a modest 70wpc amp, its not like i want to watch home theater cranked.
any good reviews of said sub kicking around?
No but reply #2 and hsuresearch.com would be good place to look into.
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post #8 of 44 Old 06-12-2012, 10:57 AM
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Did I miss the size of the room?

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post #9 of 44 Old 06-12-2012, 11:15 AM - Thread Starter
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As of today right now - a small bedroom. 10x10 ish. Probably moving into something marginally bigger in the relative future.

Thanks.

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post #10 of 44 Old 06-12-2012, 11:24 AM
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^^^

I used to have the SB12 in a 12 x 12 room (2.1 music) with Sierra 1's and it was outstanding.

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post #11 of 44 Old 06-12-2012, 12:17 PM - Thread Starter
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also, just as an aside, would it be preferable to have two smaller subs?

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post #12 of 44 Old 06-12-2012, 01:03 PM - Thread Starter
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one other option i have available - i could forget about a sub altogether and upgrade to the studio 100s, a true 3 way with 3 7" bass drivers per pair, as opposed to my current 2.5 way with two 5" drivers. my concern here is that my marantz is only pushing 70wpc @8ohm, so im not sure i would really get the most out of those speakers with my system.

thoughts?

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post #13 of 44 Old 06-12-2012, 01:35 PM
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I use to have KEF !05.2 reference series speakers, it has 12 inch woofers... I still added a sub biggrin.gif. Subs will dig deeper into the bass that no 7 inch woofer can
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post #14 of 44 Old 06-12-2012, 01:38 PM - Thread Starter
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yeah, good point.

but what about 1 big sub vs two smaller ones?

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post #15 of 44 Old 06-12-2012, 01:41 PM
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Almost the same concept bigger will go deeper, would you rather have 2 Beetles vs 1 ferrari ? cool.gif
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post #16 of 44 Old 06-12-2012, 01:46 PM - Thread Starter
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right, the same principle applies. i get that

besides the fact that i really kinda feel that i might not be getting the perfomance im paying for out of 100s at 70wpc, all the reviews i read of them guys have them at 150 or more. which isnt surprising to push 4 7" drivers. but i digress.

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post #17 of 44 Old 06-12-2012, 02:09 PM
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Technically the difference in 70 watts vs 150 watts is 3 db. Now if the 150 watt amp is a better quality amp then there could dividends from upgrading to the 150 wpc amp.
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post #18 of 44 Old 06-12-2012, 02:35 PM - Thread Starter
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i guess what im ultimately looking for is more bass, if that means upgrating the speakers, so be it. i feel like the quality of the amp is actually pretty good. i dont need a ton more, in fact i wonder if more bass might be overkill

perhaps i should upgrade the speakers now while i still can (i have 30 days from the day of purchase) and then worry about a sub later if i still feel i need one.

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post #19 of 44 Old 06-12-2012, 02:42 PM
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Sounds like a plan, bigger fronts will give you better mid bass punch compared to the smaller bookshelves.
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post #20 of 44 Old 06-12-2012, 03:10 PM - Thread Starter
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well theyre both floorstanders:

the 100 (what id be trading up for)

http://www.paradigm.com/products/products-by-category/floorstanding/paradigm-reference/studio-series/studio-100

the 60 (what i have now)

http://www.paradigm.com/index.php?option=com_mtree&task=viewlink&link_id=149&Itemid=2

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post #21 of 44 Old 06-12-2012, 04:53 PM
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The 60s have a minus 2db point of 45 hz, the 100s 44 hz. Not sure I'd do that upgrade for 1 hz on the spec sheet. I think I'd get the 12" sealed sub if I really want to dig deep. The bass extension is reported at 29 and 25 hz forth paradigms.
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post #22 of 44 Old 06-12-2012, 05:17 PM - Thread Starter
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beyond just deep, the mids should be greatly improved moving from the 60 to the 100 also, correct?

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post #23 of 44 Old 06-12-2012, 06:35 PM - Thread Starter
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Also, I'm rather surprised no one is voting for velodyne? I know their rep has fallen off in recent years, but are they that poor now?

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post #24 of 44 Old 06-12-2012, 08:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lifeis11 View Post

Also, I'm rather surprised no one is voting for velodyne? I know their rep has fallen off in recent years, but are they that poor now?

Just typically overpriced. Internet direct retailers like SVS, HSU, Outlaw Audio, Rythmik, Emotiva, and Epik provide much better bang for the buck because they don't pay for all the marketing that Velodyne and other big companies do, and their prices don't have to build in profits for retail vendors.
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Originally Posted by commsysman View Post

. . . I can recommend; the Rythmic FV-12 and the NHT B12D

While quite a good ported sub, the Rythmik FV12 is not longer available any more. The NHT B12D has specs similar to the X-Ref 12 which would suggest similar performance. There's an in-depth professional review of the X-Ref 12, and there are lots of subwoofer enthusiasts on the AVS subwoofer forum with experience with the SB12-NSD. Unfortunately, the NHT B12D is an unknown. I haven't read any testimonials on the AVS subwoofer forum from someone who owns one.

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post #25 of 44 Old 06-12-2012, 11:32 PM - Thread Starter
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That review was pretty impressive - and it does sound a LOT like what I had in mind. This is a serious contender

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post #26 of 44 Old 06-12-2012, 11:39 PM - Thread Starter
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Also, anyone have experience with the Martin Logan dynamo 1000?

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post #27 of 44 Old 06-13-2012, 02:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lifeis11 View Post

beyond just deep, the mids should be greatly improved moving from the 60 to the 100 also, correct?


Possibly, the 100s being a true three way, the 60s a 2.5 way. You'd have to give both a listen to see if it is percievable. The 60s are no slouch.
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post #28 of 44 Old 06-13-2012, 05:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lifeis11 View Post

Also, anyone have experience with the Martin Logan dynamo 1000?

It's a 12" ported sub, and you should get better SQ from sealed subs such as the X-Ref 12 or SVS PB12-NSD.

And with big speaker companies like Martin Logan, typically you'll have to get at least 50% off MSRP to have them equal the value of the Internet direct vendors I previously mentioned. For instance, the HSU VTF-2 MK4 or Outlaw Audio LFM-1 Plus will perform as well or even better than the Dynamo 1000. Or something like the Klipsch RW-12D with an MSRP of $1000 is only a good value at its current sale price of $300 on Newegg.com; those two ID vendor subs I just listed are better performers. So look for very good closeout pricing on any of those traditional speaker companies.

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post #29 of 44 Old 06-13-2012, 07:17 AM - Thread Starter
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the martin logan is ported?

check out their site, it looks sealed to me...
http://www.martinlogan.com/dynamo/index.php

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post #30 of 44 Old 06-13-2012, 07:28 AM
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You are right. Doesn't look like it is. My bad. I was thinking of the Dynamo 300 and 500 which are. But I wouldn't expect it to perform better than the SVS.

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