Yes you CAN hear jitter! - Page 5 - AVS Forum
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post #121 of 134 Old 06-26-2012, 07:25 AM
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Originally Posted by amirm View Post

Now let's look at the spectrum of a real device's jitter as measured over its HDMI input by Paul Miller of HiFi News:
i-bh66DFK-XL.png

What freq is f0? Using the chart Ethan posted and interpolating 5ns jitter would have f0 at about 18Khz. Is that correct?
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post #122 of 134 Old 06-26-2012, 09:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Swampfox View Post

What freq is f0? Using the chart Ethan posted and interpolating 5ns jitter would have f0 at about 18Khz. Is that correct?

This is no doubt the spectra of the results of a J-test. F0 on a j-test is Fs/4.

http://www.nanophon.com/audio/diagnose.pdf

Section 2.5
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post #123 of 134 Old 06-26-2012, 08:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Ethan Winer View Post

How do you know that any sound differences you think you heard were due to different amounts of jitter? Did you measure the jitter with an audio analyzer?
--Ethan

I have used the Audio Precision SYS-2722, with the correct options, to do J-tests. At the same time, I did subtle and gross modifications to the clocking mechanism of about 8 different CD players, all in a repeated basis. Different DAC types, as well, not just machines. 18-bit, 20-bit, 24-bit, mash, etc. .

Minor modifications that caused the J-test to come out different, with each modification. in those i could also hear a difference.

And I could also do changes and modifications that caused no change in the J-test, and still be able to hear a repeatable difference.

All these things were done within the context and methodology of single cause analysis, over a lengthy period.

Exactly what the details of the changes committed to, in order to create these situations of 'change' in data/measurements or perceived/heard changes.... I'll keep to myself, thank you very much. For all the right reasons.

Ken Hotte

"Never forget that only dead fish swim with the stream." -- Malcolm Muggeridge.
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post #124 of 134 Old 06-26-2012, 08:02 PM
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Oh god. Arny and Ethan, in one thread.

May the gods give the universe a break.

Ken Hotte

"Never forget that only dead fish swim with the stream." -- Malcolm Muggeridge.
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post #125 of 134 Old 06-27-2012, 01:42 AM
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Originally Posted by KBK View Post

I have used the Audio Precision SYS-2722, with the correct options, to do J-tests. At the same time, I did subtle and gross modifications to the clocking mechanism of about 8 different CD players, all in a repeated basis. Different DAC types, as well, not just machines. 18-bit, 20-bit, 24-bit, mash, etc. .
Minor modifications that caused the J-test to come out different, with each modification. in those i could also hear a difference.

Blind, level matched, time synched; or sighted?
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post #126 of 134 Old 06-27-2012, 07:51 AM
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Originally Posted by KBK View Post

Oh god. Arny and Ethan, in one thread.
May the gods give the universe a break.

The gods did give the universe a break, and that is why we are here! ;-)
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post #127 of 134 Old 06-27-2012, 11:59 AM
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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

Blind, level matched, time synched; or sighted?

Guess. biggrin.gif

There's a reason Ken's profile is labeled "AVS Problematic Mem." eek.gif

I love the people who make outlandish claims, then refuse to describe their test or setup or anything because it's "proprietary."

By the way, in the interest of transparency, Ken's business is selling expensive wires. Not that he'd reveal that here voluntarily.

--Ethan

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post #128 of 134 Old 06-27-2012, 02:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ethan Winer View Post

Guess. biggrin.gif
There's a reason Ken's profile is labeled "AVS Problematic Mem." eek.gif
I love the people who make outlandish claims, then refuse to describe their test or setup or anything because it's "proprietary."
By the way, in the interest of transparency, Ken's business is selling expensive wires. Not that he'd reveal that here voluntarily.
--Ethan

I thought it was selling expensive paint?
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post #129 of 134 Old 06-27-2012, 02:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Swampfox View Post

I thought it was selling expensive paint?

That too. The cable in question is Teo liquid cable. And just for yuks, here is a link to check out biggrin.gif.
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post #130 of 134 Old 06-27-2012, 04:38 PM
 
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Originally Posted by rock_bottom View Post

That too. The cable in question is Teo liquid cable. And just for yuks, here is a link to check out biggrin.gif.

Nice. Paint fumes and liquid cables. A quick search yielded this. Looks like KBK has the endorsement of "audio" luminaries Geoff Kait and May Belt. What a trifecta.
How you been Andy?smile.gif

cheers,

AJ
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post #131 of 134 Old 06-27-2012, 05:24 PM
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I am fine, thanks!

For some reason, this discussion reminded me of the crackpot index and How Can We Be Sure That Albert Einstein Was Not a Crank? smile.gif.
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post #132 of 134 Old 06-28-2012, 04:20 AM
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Originally Posted by rock_bottom View Post

I am fine, thanks!
For some reason, this discussion reminded me of the crackpot index and How Can We Be Sure That Albert Einstein Was Not a Crank? smile.gif.

The crackpot index reads like it was lifted from the pages of your choice of high end ragazines:

"
1 point for every statement that is widely agreed on to be false.

2 points for every statement that is clearly vacuous.

3 points for every statement that is logically inconsistent.

5 points for each such statement that is adhered to despite careful correction.

5 points for using a thought experiment that contradicts the results of a widely accepted real experiment.

10 points for pointing out that you have gone to school, as if this were evidence of sanity.

10 points for beginning the description of your theory by saying how long you have been working on it. (10 more for emphasizing that you worked on your own.)

10 points for each new term you invent and use without properly defining it.

10 points for each statement along the lines of "I'm not good at math, but my theory is conceptually right, so all I need is for someone to express it in terms of equations".

10 points for arguing that a current well-established theory is "only a theory", as if this were somehow a point against it.

10 points for arguing that while a current well-established theory predicts phenomena correctly, it doesn't explain "why" they occur, or fails to provide a "mechanism".

10 points for claiming that your work is on the cutting edge of a "paradigm shift".

20 points for every use of science fiction works or myths as if they were fact.

20 points for defending yourself by bringing up (real or imagined) ridicule accorded to your past theories.

20 points for talking about how great your theory is, but never actually explaining it.

20 points for each use of the phrase "hidebound reactionary".

40 points for comparing those who argue against your ideas to Nazis, stormtroopers, or brownshirts.

40 points for claiming that the "scientific establishment" is engaged in a "conspiracy" to prevent your work from gaining its well-deserved fame, or suchlike.

40 points for claiming that when your theory is finally appreciated, present-day science will be seen for the sham it truly is. (30 more points for fantasizing about show trials in which scientists who mocked your theories will be forced to recant.)

50 points for claiming you have a revolutionary theory but giving no concrete testable predictions.
"
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post #133 of 134 Old 06-28-2012, 06:07 AM
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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post


The crackpot index reads like it was lifted from the pages of your choice of high end ragazines:

Yup biggrin.gif. Or some audio forum posts.
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post #134 of 134 Old 06-28-2012, 07:15 AM
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Originally Posted by AJinFLA View Post

Nice. Paint fumes and liquid cables. A quick search yielded this. Looks like KBK has the endorsement of "audio" luminaries Geoff Kait and May Belt. What a trifecta.

Did a little checking and found that besides being a novelty and highly expensive, liquid metal has very little to recommend it for making cables.

The liquid metal itself has about half the conductivity of copper. If silver is good because it conducts better than copper then liquid metal is bad.

Liquid metal is corrosive to most metals with the the exception of tungsten and tantalum. Corrosion of cables is a concern to many, and all of those folks should run the other way from liquid metal.

Finally the main components of liquid metal are easy enough to obtain and run less than a dollar per gram in reasonable quantities. Plenty of profit margin in making liquid metal cables to sell for on the order of $4K per meter.
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