MIT speaker cable - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 410 Old 03-20-2014, 12:59 PM
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Originally Posted by NagysAudio View Post

Facepalm.

Anyone with basic knowledge of impedance theory can see I made a simple calculation based on your assumptions.

If it's wrong, then quit deflecting and show how it's wrong.
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post #182 of 410 Old 03-20-2014, 01:17 PM
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Originally Posted by koturban View Post

Anyone with basic knowledge of impedance theory can see I made a simple calculation based on your assumptions.

If it's wrong, then quit deflecting and show how it's wrong.

Instead of shaking the air, why don't you first think before you write? Or are you just trolling? Here's an extremely popular Seas tweeter, which has been used in dozens of mass produced loudspeakers: http://www.seas.no/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=90&Itemid=114

Inductance is 50uH. Based on your method of calculation, it will have 1 Ohm of inductive reactance at 3kHz and 6.3 Ohm at 20kHz.

Are you for real? Adding an additional 10uH in series will be quite insignificant as far as 20kHz rolloff. You're looking at 0.2-0.3dB down worst case scenario.

I'm not going to do the math because for one, I don't take requests. And two, there's quite a bit of math here and I don't see a reason to type it all out just because someone requested. There are many great publications online from Bob Cordell, to Linkwitz, to Elliot Sound Products, etc. It's a fun read and I suggest you do it.
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post #183 of 410 Old 03-20-2014, 01:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NagysAudio View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by koturban View Post

Anyone with basic knowledge of impedance theory can see I made a simple calculation based on your assumptions.

If it's wrong, then quit deflecting and show how it's wrong.

Instead of shaking the air, why don't you first think before you write? Or are you just trolling? Here's an extremely popular Seas tweeter, which has been used in dozens of mass produced loudspeakers: http://www.seas.no/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=90&Itemid=114

Inductance is 50uH. Based on your method of calculation, it will have 1 Ohm of inductive reactance at 3kHz and 6.3 Ohm at 20kHz.

So what?

Quote:
Adding an additional 10uH in series will be quite insignificant as far as 20kHz rolloff. You're looking at 0.2-0.3dB down worst case scenario.

10 uHY in series with 50 uHy all by itself is a 1.5 dB attenuator at all frequencies. However the impedance of the tweeter is a complex impedance due to the series resistance of the voice coil which is 4.8 ohms. Since this is very significant as compared to the reactive component, any estimate based on just the reactive component is in error.
Quote:
I'm not going to do the math because for one, I don't take requests.

I hear that a lot from people who can't perform.
Quote:
And two, there's quite a bit of math here and I don't see a reason to type it all out just because someone requested. There are many great publications online from Bob Cordell, to Linkwitz, to Elliot Sound Products, etc. It's a fun read and I suggest you do it.


Incorrect references. Any good book about electrical networks including a basic book on electrical circuits (200 level at a University) contains this information. I suspect that you are only citing references that you are familiar with.
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post #184 of 410 Old 03-20-2014, 02:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NagysAudio View Post

Instead of shaking the air, why don't you first think before you write? Or are you just trolling? Here's an extremely popular Seas tweeter, which has been used in dozens of mass produced loudspeakers: http://www.seas.no/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=90&Itemid=114

Inductance is 50uH. Based on your method of calculation, it will have 1 Ohm of inductive reactance at 3kHz and 6.3 Ohm at 20kHz.

Are you for real? Adding an additional 10uH in series will be quite insignificant as far as 20kHz rolloff. You're looking at 0.2-0.3dB down worst case scenario.

I'm not going to do the math because for one, I don't take requests. And two, there's quite a bit of math here and I don't see a reason to type it all out just because someone requested. There are many great publications online from Bob Cordell, to Linkwitz, to Elliot Sound Products, etc. It's a fun read and I suggest you do it.

It's YOUR example.

It doesn't take a complex calculation to demonstrate that it will have an effect on the audio for the simple reason of being an inductor in series with another inductor.

You can continue to be hostile and dance around your flawed example, or you can hunker down and demonstrate why I might be wrong.

And you don't even have to show up in person for a DBT.
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post #185 of 410 Old 03-20-2014, 02:08 PM
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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

So what?
10 uHY in series with 50 uHy all by itself is a 1.5 dB attenuator at all frequencies. However the impedance of the tweeter is a complex impedance due to the series resistance of the voice coil which is 4.8 ohms. Since this is very significant as compared to the reactive component, any estimate based on just the reactive component is in error.
I hear that a lot from people who can't perform.
Incorrect references. Any good book about electrical networks including a basic book on electrical circuits (200 level at a University) contains this information. I suspect that you are only citing references that you are familiar with.

Thank you.
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post #186 of 410 Old 03-20-2014, 02:15 PM
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Originally Posted by koturban View Post

It's YOUR example.

It doesn't take a complex calculation to demonstrate that it will have an effect on the audio for the simple reason of being an inductor in series with another inductor.

You can continue to be hostile and dance around your flawed example, or you can hunker down and demonstrate why I might be wrong.

And you don't even have to show up in person for a DBT.

You haven't a clue on what you're talking about. It takes several equations to calculate this and you need to set up a theoretical system model first. No online calculators are going to help you there. As for hostility... You were the hostile one. If you asked nicely to begin with, I might have pointed you in the right direction.

Mr. Arnyk is a 200 level University student. I'm sure if you ask him kindly he'll go down to the school library and type out the math for you.
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post #187 of 410 Old 03-20-2014, 02:20 PM
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Originally Posted by NagysAudio View Post

You haven't a clue on what you're talking about. It takes several equations to calculate this and you need to set up a theoretical system model first. No online calculators are going to help you there. As for hostility... You were the hostile one. If you asked nicely to begin with, I might have pointed you in the right direction.

What's this have to do with FMW coming on over to see if you can blind pick out some cables. One of my favorite movie lines is from Star Wars: "Stay on target, Staaay on Target".

An audiophile likes to talk about how much they spent and how good it sounds.

A DIY'er likes to talk about how little they spent and how good it sounds.

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post #188 of 410 Old 03-20-2014, 02:33 PM
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Originally Posted by NagysAudio View Post

You haven't a clue on what you're talking about. It takes several equations to calculate this and you need to set up a theoretical system model first. No online calculators are going to help you there. As for hostility... You were the hostile one. If you asked nicely to begin with, I might have pointed you in the right direction.

Mr. Arnyk is a 200 level University student. I'm sure if you ask him kindly he'll go down to the school library and type out the math for you.

Really? Quote my "hostility".

Arnyk answered quite nicely, thx.
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post #189 of 410 Old 03-20-2014, 02:34 PM
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He's dug himself a deep enough hole that he isn't going to escape. I find it somewhat pathetic that he keeps posting and digging. Let's do Nagy a favor and let this thread die. We're just moving to his level.
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post #190 of 410 Old 03-20-2014, 03:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NagysAudio View Post


Mr. Arnyk is a 200 level University student. I'm sure if you ask him kindly he'll go down to the school library and type out the math for you.

Actually exactly one course shy of a Masters in Engineering.
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post #191 of 410 Old 03-20-2014, 03:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NagysAudio View Post


You haven't a clue on what you're talking about. It takes several equations to calculate this and you need to set up a theoretical system model first. No online calculators are going to help you there. As for hostility... You were the hostile one. If you asked nicely to begin with, I might have pointed you in the right direction.

Most of the problem including the impedance magnitude at any audio frequency is listed out in the spec sheet:



However, one must know how to read spec sheets...
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post #192 of 410 Old 03-20-2014, 03:57 PM
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What does the tweeter's spec sheet have to do with anything?
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post #193 of 410 Old 03-20-2014, 05:16 PM
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Here's a good read: http://www.audioholics.com/audio-video-cables/cross-coax-cables-design-vs-zip-cord/cross-coax-cables-design-vs-zip-cord-page-2

Gene over at Audioholics uses SPICE for simulation as it's a lot easier than writing out the entire calculation, which is complex. Notice how no one around here jumped to do it? Note that for a 50 foot length of 12AWG wire, where assumed inductance is 0.191uH per foot (total of 9.55uH), you have an attenuation of -0.7dB at 20kHz into a 4 Ohm load (presumably a tweeter).

And here's Rod's SPICE simulation: http://sound.westhost.com/cable-z.htm
Where he explains: "(for example, a 10uH inductance causes a 0.4dB loss at 20kHz and a 4Ω load, and that's with no cable at all)"
I suggest you read this article as it's very cable related and has loads of interesting information.

Sounds about right.

BTW, most amplifiers have an output inductor (1-5uH) to lower distortion, prevent RF, etc. It's a trick as old as the book.

You can also calculate the corner frequency of a 10uH inductor in the said load and in most normal cases it will be around 100kHz.

You are safe to experiment adding 5-20uH of inductance in series with your loudspeakers. Very fun results.
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post #194 of 410 Old 03-20-2014, 06:08 PM
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Originally Posted by NagysAudio View Post

What does the tweeter's spec sheet have to do with anything?

What does anything you are posting to try and deflect the Thread subject line and your unwillingness to allow FMW to come over and setup a controlled SBT?

An audiophile likes to talk about how much they spent and how good it sounds.

A DIY'er likes to talk about how little they spent and how good it sounds.

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post #195 of 410 Old 03-20-2014, 06:53 PM
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Originally Posted by NagysAudio View Post

What does the tweeter's spec sheet have to do with anything?

You raised it as an issue in post http://www.avsforum.com/t/1416997/mit-speaker-cable/180#post_24508516 .

Why did you do that if it is irrelevant to the discussion?
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post #196 of 410 Old 03-20-2014, 07:00 PM
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Originally Posted by NagysAudio View Post

Here's a good read: http://www.audioholics.com/audio-video-cables/cross-coax-cables-design-vs-zip-cord/cross-coax-cables-design-vs-zip-cord-page-2

Gene over at Audioholics uses SPICE for simulation as it's a lot easier than writing out the entire calculation, which is complex. Notice how no one around here jumped to do it? Note that for a 50 foot length of 12AWG wire, where assumed inductance is 0.191uH per foot (total of 9.55uH), you have an attenuation of -0.7dB at 20kHz into a 4 Ohm load (presumably a tweeter).

And here's Rod's SPICE simulation: http://sound.westhost.com/cable-z.htm
Where he explains: "(for example, a 10uH inductance causes a 0.4dB loss at 20kHz and a 4Ω load, and that's with no cable at all)"
I suggest you read this article as it's very cable related and has loads of interesting information.

Sounds about right.

....

So what? What does that loss mean to perception, at 20 kHz? Can you hear 20 kHz??? What is your JND threshold at 20 kHz??? That is very important to knowing things about audibility.
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post #197 of 410 Old 03-20-2014, 07:01 PM
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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

You raised it as an issue in post http://www.avsforum.com/t/1416997/mit-speaker-cable/180#post_24508516 .

Why did you do that if it is irrelevant to the discussion?

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post #198 of 410 Old 03-20-2014, 07:03 PM
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So what? What does that loss mean to perception, at 20 kHz? Can you hear 20 kHz??? What is your JND threshold at 20 kHz??? That is very important to knowing things about audibility.

What are you going on about?
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post #199 of 410 Old 03-20-2014, 07:08 PM
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What are you going on about?

You cannot understand a response to your post? You posted the losses at 20 kHz, no? OK, so what. Is it audible?
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post #200 of 410 Old 03-20-2014, 07:09 PM
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You cannot understand a response to your post? You posted the losses at 20 kHz, no? OK, so what. Is it audible?

LOL. It would help if you read the last couple of pages.
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post #201 of 410 Old 03-21-2014, 05:20 AM
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Originally Posted by NagysAudio View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlesJ View Post

You cannot understand a response to your post? You posted the losses at 20 kHz, no? OK, so what. Is it audible?

LOL. It would help if you read the last couple of pages.

I seem to be able to stomach only so many insulting, dismissive posts from someone who is forcibly pushing a golden ears agenda and seems to have more than a few empty shelves in their intellectual toolbox and personal integrity aisles.

Originally I thought that someone was trying to use AVS to get some favorable PR for cable products that they obviously wanted to sell, but after several pages of the above, all I see is an economic death wish.
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post #202 of 410 Old 03-21-2014, 06:38 AM
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I'm truly baffled by Nagy. He clings to his position like a squirrel on a tree trunk even though he knows he is doing himself more harm than good here. There are forums full of subjective audiophiles. This is the wrong place for his pseudoscience.. What on earth makes him continue here is beyond my ability to comprehend. It was fun for a while. Now it is pathetic
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post #203 of 410 Old 03-21-2014, 06:46 AM
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OMFG......this is priceless....

http://www.audioasylum.com/reviews/Cable/Nagys-Audio/Nagys-Audio-Power-Cable/cables/14/144953.html
Quote:
Originally Posted by audioasylum review of Nagy power cable 

Model: Nagys Audio Power Cable
Category: Cable
Suggested Retail Price: $190
Description: High Quality Shielded Power Cable
Manufacturer URL: Nagys Audio
Model Picture: View


I found this company on the web and took a chance on them. They're fairly new to the audio cable market and speaking with the owner I found out they've been around for about a year and a half.

I finally decided to upgrade my power cable for the Goldmund Mimesis 3 amplifier. I've been using PS Audio cables for the past few years. Since Mimesis 3 is an incredibly fast amplifier, it's extremely picky on which cables it's mated with.

The Nagys Audio Power Cable was an immediate improvement. The sound became significantly more open and airy and the bass is now fast and punchy. I have never heard such an improvement from a power cable before, especially one so affordable.

I'm planing to buy at least 2 more for the preamp and cd player and I will also give their interconnect cables a try and will post back here.

LOL.
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post #204 of 410 Old 03-21-2014, 07:44 AM
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If there are any members local (say 2 hours from Louisville) that wants to get together and put some of this together I'm game.

An audiophile likes to talk about how much they spent and how good it sounds.

A DIY'er likes to talk about how little they spent and how good it sounds.

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post #205 of 410 Old 03-21-2014, 08:37 AM
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NagysAudio:
So much of you and your company info being public online, you don't want to do what you do here if you care about your cable business. When potential customer does Google search on Nagys Audio cables, they will see obnoxious replies you posted on this thread.
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post #207 of 410 Old 03-23-2014, 06:21 PM
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Originally Posted by kgallerie View Post

......this is priceless....

http://www.audioasylum.com/reviews/Cable/Nagys-Audio/Nagys-Audio-Power-Cable/cables/14/144953.html


LOL.

No no no, the review you have linked here has been very helpful to me because now, I don't have to spend money on speakers and subwoofers anymore. All of the dynamics that the speakers and subs provide, now come solely from these power cables. And the further I go up the line, the more rivalry I get from the high end audiophile sound that a guy like me could only dream of.

Yep, I threw my RTiA9's in the garbage and connected my Dell PC 2.1 speakers to a Nagys power cable and behold, a sound with such a dramatic sonic increase, I may never buy another speaker again as long as I live!!
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post #208 of 410 Old 03-25-2014, 11:17 AM
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I didn't want to read all the arguing and get involved. I'll just give my experience.

I had thousands and thousands of dollars of MIT cables and interconnects. I was really big on them. After years of finally having a really nice system set up I decided to do some Do it yourself projects for fun and experimentation.

I went down to home depot and bought some very thick wire. It was 10/4 cord. Very thick stuff. I combined two of the wires for each post, so essentially it was the same as an 8 gauge or so. I also made my own interconnects. Used solid core wire inside them.

I removed all the MIT wires and interconnects, got all the new stuff I made and set it up in my system. Turned it on....my jaw dropped. The sound was absolutely incredible. The dynamics were just insane, the background so black and clean, the sound so pure. Massive upgrade. Every aspect of the music had very very noticeably improved. I could never ever go back to MIT again. Just as I had suspected they are really just tone controls. When they were gone you can really tell that's all they are. Now yes they can conduct quite well as speaker cable but they have tone controls in the middle on that box. And they do add some coloration. You can't send a pure signal through those extra circuits and not have it affect the signal. It's not going to make the signal more pure, it's going to add coloration. This is what I realized how people get stuck on the upgrade ride with MIT. Most people start off with cheaper systems. Usually ones with glare and brightness. So you stick in some MIT cables and "WOW" it's not as bright! Then build their system and future upgrades around that coloration and tone control. I heard the Avalon, MIT, Spectral system at a local dealer quite a while back. Knowing the sound of MIT and owning them I can totally tell what coloration and tone controls the MIT wire was adding. Now it's your own business if you want to buy MIT wire and interconnects to tone down some glare or brightness and contour the sound you want exactly. That's your choice. But you also make some compromises. For me I'd rather have the purer cleaner and truly accurate sound and work from there and build my system around that. If there is a flaw some place else I'd rather just fix it and get a better amp or front end. To this day I get way better results building my own wire. And it saves me thousands of dollars.
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post #209 of 410 Old 03-25-2014, 04:49 PM
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Originally Posted by xerosleep View Post

I didn't want to read all the arguing and get involved. I'll just give my experience.

I had thousands and thousands of dollars of MIT cables and interconnects. I was really big on them. After years of finally having a really nice system set up I decided to do some Do it yourself projects for fun and experimentation.

I went down to home depot and bought some very thick wire. It was 10/4 cord. Very thick stuff. I combined two of the wires for each post, so essentially it was the same as an 8 gauge or so. I also made my own interconnects. Used solid core wire inside them.

I removed all the MIT wires and interconnects, got all the new stuff I made and set it up in my system. Turned it on....my jaw dropped. The sound was absolutely incredible. The dynamics were just insane, the background so black and clean, the sound so pure. Massive upgrade. Every aspect of the music had very very noticeably improved. I could never ever go back to MIT again. Just as I had suspected they are really just tone controls. When they were gone you can really tell that's all they are. Now yes they can conduct quite well as speaker cable but they have tone controls in the middle on that box. And they do add some coloration. You can't send a pure signal through those extra circuits and not have it affect the signal. It's not going to make the signal more pure, it's going to add coloration. This is what I realized how people get stuck on the upgrade ride with MIT. Most people start off with cheaper systems. Usually ones with glare and brightness. So you stick in some MIT cables and "WOW" it's not as bright! Then build their system and future upgrades around that coloration and tone control. I heard the Avalon, MIT, Spectral system at a local dealer quite a while back. Knowing the sound of MIT and owning them I can totally tell what coloration and tone controls the MIT wire was adding. Now it's your own business if you want to buy MIT wire and interconnects to tone down some glare or brightness and contour the sound you want exactly. That's your choice. But you also make some compromises. For me I'd rather have the purer cleaner and truly accurate sound and work from there and build my system around that. If there is a flaw some place else I'd rather just fix it and get a better amp or front end. To this day I get way better results building my own wire. And it saves me thousands of dollars.

In my opinion this is all nonsense. Generalizing MIT cables as being tone controls simply shows that one doesn't understand exactly what the networks consist of. You can read their patent here: https://www.google.com/patents/US6658119?dq=ininventor:%22Bruce+A.+Brisson%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=8BMyU-TfCoO52AWrsYHoDQ&ved=0CDsQ6AEwATgK

It goes into great detail on how they measure energy storage in cables and what the numerous Zobels do to correct that. These are not cables one can just make at the kitchen table. They require very expensive and precise measuring equipment. The patent reveals very real and sound science. Now some will claim that excess energy storage in cables at certain frequencies is inaudible. Fine. But then the same so called audio scientists will also ignorantly label MIT cables as tone controls. So which is it? It's laughable really. The Zobel networks consist of very small storage capacitors (pF) and resistors in the mega Ohm range. This is a very delicate de-energization of certain frequency regions. And yes, it's very audible to me and they sound correct. It's the Home Depot crap which is colored. Just because Home Depot wire sounds brighter/different that doesn't mean that it's better. Precise measuring and real science conclude that MIT cables are less colored.
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post #210 of 410 Old 03-25-2014, 07:39 PM
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Originally Posted by NagysAudio View Post

Precise measuring and real science conclude that MIT cables are less colored.

Great. I will look forward to the peer reviewed publications on this matter. Should be from a respectable publications.

An audiophile likes to talk about how much they spent and how good it sounds.

A DIY'er likes to talk about how little they spent and how good it sounds.

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