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post #1 of 410 Old 06-22-2012, 12:17 PM - Thread Starter
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Not sure if this is the right place to post this, but did not see any sub-forum dedicated to cable.

So I was looking around on Audiogon and found that a lot of discontinued MIT speaker cables are selling for half price. I'm currently using some "just cable" ($3-4 a foot) and wondering if it is worth jumping on the deals. I'm interested in MIT CVT2, S3 etc selling for $250 - $600.

I'm not very familiar with the cables and any advice would be greatly appreciated.
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post #2 of 410 Old 06-22-2012, 12:21 PM
 
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Expensive wire is a rip off, stick with waht you have.
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post #3 of 410 Old 06-22-2012, 12:27 PM
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Originally Posted by kzhtoo View Post

Not sure if this is the right place to post this, but did not see any sub-forum dedicated to cable.
So I was looking around on Audiogon and found that a lot of discontinued MIT speaker cables are selling for half price. I'm currently using some "just cable" ($3-4 a foot) and wondering if it is worth jumping on the deals. I'm interested in MIT CVT2, S3 etc selling for $250 - $600.
I'm not very familiar with the cables and any advice would be greatly appreciated.

For openers, cable is commonly described in terms of wire gauge (USA) or diameter of the conductor (metric).

The two most significant facts for determining the kind of cable needed is the make and model of your speakers and the length of the cables you want to use.

Speaker wire is a commodity, and even the thickest cables needed are commonly sold for prices that are well under $3-4 a foot.
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post #4 of 410 Old 06-22-2012, 12:28 PM
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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

For openers, cable is commonly described in terms of wire gauge (USA) or diameter of the conductor (metric).
The two most significant facts for determining the kind of cable needed is the make and model of your speakers and the length of the cables you want to use.
Speaker wire is a commodity, and even the thickest cables needed are commonly sold for prices that are well under $3-4 a foot.

I understand that some MIT speaker cables have embedded electrical networks that are well known to provide no audible benefits.
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post #5 of 410 Old 06-22-2012, 12:44 PM
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Originally Posted by kzhtoo View Post

Not sure if this is the right place to post this, but did not see any sub-forum dedicated to cable.
So I was looking around on Audiogon and found that a lot of discontinued MIT speaker cables are selling for half price. I'm currently using some "just cable" ($3-4 a foot) and wondering if it is worth jumping on the deals. I'm interested in MIT CVT2, S3 etc selling for $250 - $600.
I'm not very familiar with the cables and any advice would be greatly appreciated.

I have a pair of MIT EXP2 14' cables. If you can pick them out 9/10 times of a coin flip vs my Belden 5000UE I will pay your air fair, your accommodations, rental car, food, AND give you the MIT's if you pick them out as the favored.
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An audiophile likes to talk about how much they spent and how good it sounds.

A DIY'er likes to talk about how little they spent and how good it sounds.

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post #6 of 410 Old 06-22-2012, 12:46 PM
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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

I understand that some MIT speaker cables have embedded electrical networks that are well known to provide no audible benefits.

Anything with a box of electronics in the middle ISN'T A CABLE. I swear I am going to come out with a 'cable' that has a MiniDSP in the middle and continue to call it a cable whilst asking $47,000 for the pair at 10ft.

An audiophile likes to talk about how much they spent and how good it sounds.

A DIY'er likes to talk about how little they spent and how good it sounds.

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post #7 of 410 Old 06-22-2012, 12:55 PM
 
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Originally Posted by kzhtoo View Post

I'm not very familiar with the cables and any advice would be greatly appreciated.
Besides what's been posted, try this link: http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm
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post #8 of 410 Old 06-22-2012, 03:39 PM - Thread Starter
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So...basically, you all think this would just be a waste of money. I'm very curious though because if it is in fact not sonically beneficial, how these cable companies have been around for many years. In other words, how do you keep lying to people for so long? As stated before, all I know about cable is minimizing the resistance (a function of the material, cable width, etc) improves the current flow. Those MIT cables do have bigger width than the ones that I'm using right now.

I might be better off, as I have an extra pair of speaker cables, double-bonding my current cables with the extra ones at the ends with bigger banana plugs??

I'm also thinking to just pick up some ultra expensive AudioQuest or Monster speaker cables at Best Buy (since they can be returned) and test it out myself with my ears as the judge. smile.gif
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post #9 of 410 Old 06-22-2012, 04:12 PM - Thread Starter
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I do think there's a curve for cable quality vs. sonic performance. But maybe the curve is a non-linear one (unlike the way most ppl tend to think) - very steep slope at the bottom end but after a certain point, it gets saturated rather fast. Hence, once it goes past the mentioned threshold, the difference is so small it feels like a flat line.

The sonic performance of course is also a function of the speaker and electronics quality. So depending on the quality of one's system, you'd need a certain level of cable quality to unlock the sonic potential?? For the above theory I mentioned (if you can call that a theory), one does need to get to that "transport threshold" to bring out the full potential of the system?

Again, I'm not arguing one way or another - cables matter or not matter. It's just that I haven't really paid attention to the cables until now, just because I got a new set of Focal Electra (they kick some serious bottom btw). Just thinking out loud here, and at the same time, trying to learn...
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post #10 of 410 Old 06-23-2012, 06:05 AM
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Originally Posted by kzhtoo View Post

So...basically, you all think this would just be a waste of money. I'm very curious though because if it is in fact not sonically beneficial, how these cable companies have been around for many years. In other words, how do you keep lying to people for so long?
I see this argument a lot and it leaves me wondering and I have to ask (please don't take offense), how old are you?

Homeopathy is a billion dollar business.
Psychics, astrologers, faith healers rake in millions
Miracle cancer cures, magnetic bracelets
Here is a fun source which goes through but a few more.

People spend billions of dollars on products that don't do what they advertise and have no basis in fact or science and as long people are willing buy, others are willing to sell.

I honestly, in the age of the Internet and instant world wide communication, don't understand how someone can exist today unaware of this.
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post #11 of 410 Old 06-23-2012, 06:24 AM
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post #12 of 410 Old 06-23-2012, 06:38 AM
 
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It sounds like you're trying to convince us to tell you that cables do make a difference.
Conductors have been well understood for over a century. You're not discovering anything new.
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post #13 of 410 Old 06-23-2012, 07:20 AM
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I normally stay out of these cable debates, because they're circular, no one side will convince the other, and they are generally talking about 'straight wire'. However, MIT cables are NOT simply straight wire, and DO affect the sound. I have known people who do not care for the effect, but I know many that do (myself included). So go ahead and continue your anti-cable dog pile, but you guys are simply wrong in your assertions concerning MIT products in general.

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post #14 of 410 Old 06-23-2012, 09:11 AM
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Originally Posted by kzhtoo View Post

So...basically, you all think this would just be a waste of money.

Depends what your goals are. If bragging rights are what you want, blowing a ton of money on weird cables seems to work with some people. If most accurate sound quality with minimum cost and hassle is what you want, then its hard to beat commodity 12 gauge copper wire in reasonable lengths.
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I'm very curious though because if it is in fact not sonically beneficial, how these cable companies have been around for many years.

It is a testimonial to human gullibility, wishfulness, pride, and denial of science.
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In other words, how do you keep lying to people for so long?

If you want to lie to people, it can be helpful to pick an area of society where no powerful political groups are involved. OTOH the politicians have been lying to everybody, which may only be a testimonial to how badly organized everybody is. ;-)
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As stated before, all I know about cable is minimizing the resistance (a function of the material, cable width, etc) improves the current flow.

That's about 90% of it, and the other 10% can be disregarded most of the time.

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Those MIT cables do have bigger width than the ones that I'm using right now.

Ever hear of thicker plastic jackets and plastic jackets with fabric overlays? Very chic-looking, and they can be thicker.

As far as resistance goes - there is a law of diminishing returns. If the resistance of the cable is 1/100 or less than the impedance of the speaker, then the absence of audible changes is guaranteed in almost every case. Reduce that to 1/10 and you are still probably pretty safe.
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I might be better off, as I have an extra pair of speaker cables, double-bonding my current cables with the extra ones at the ends with bigger banana plugs??

You haven't told us about your speakers, the length of your cables, and the thickness of the copper inside them. Spill the beans about that and we can Science it all out for you in a flash!

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I'm also thinking to just pick up some ultra expensive AudioQuest or Monster speaker cables at Best Buy (since they can be returned) and test it out myself with my ears as the judge. smile.gif

There's been a lot of good discussion around here lately about how easy it is to make a change and hear differences that have nothing to do with the change that you just made. I can pretty well guarantee that if you do what you suggest, you will hear a difference, but most likely not due to the cables. This "Buy and try with a money back guarantee" sounds very up-and-up, but its actually one of the biggest scams in Audio.
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post #15 of 410 Old 06-23-2012, 09:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Rutgar View Post

I normally stay out of these cable debates, because they're circular, no one side will convince the other, and they are generally talking about 'straight wire'. However, MIT cables are NOT simply straight wire, and DO affect the sound. I have known people who do not care for the effect, but I know many that do (myself included). So go ahead and continue your anti-cable dog pile, but you guys are simply wrong in your assertions concerning MIT products in general.

Straight or active speaker cables.... no one should pay more than pennines a foot.

As for MIT cables, they affect the sound causing "coloration". Most would prefer to not have a speaker wire alter the sound of the amp and/or speakers. Especially at a high price.

If you prefer the sound alteration, that's fine. But don't become indignant with the majority which disagree with you.

Anecdotal experience:
Years ago I purchased a new AVR and DVD player. The saleman highly recommended a pair of MIT speaker cables and A/V interconnects (which was quite expensive). He instructed me to "break them in" for two weeks before making a decision. After three weeks, I heard/saw no "improvement" of anything. When I returned everything for a refund, he acted like I was crazy and actually said I have bad ears and eyes. Never went back to that store.
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post #16 of 410 Old 06-23-2012, 09:56 AM
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Straight or active speaker cables.... no one should pay more than pennines a foot.

MIT cables are neither straight, or active... so already, you show you have no clue of what you're talking about.

Is that indignant enough for you?

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Asking wire questions here is like asking Homeless people the difference in good wine.I would say most here have never own a high end system where wire can make a difference.If you have a cheap average system like many here then wire will not make huge diffence.If you have $20k mono blocks and $10k speakers and other top componets'wire does have small effect on the sound.The difference is silver and copper can be heard quite easily.Go to audiogon forums where those who know and actully have systems and try different wire hang out.Also their are other high end sites to try.Bob
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post #18 of 410 Old 06-23-2012, 10:46 AM
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Originally Posted by buddahead View Post

Asking wire questions here is like asking Homeless people the difference in good wine.I would say most here have never own a high end system where wire can make a difference.If you have a cheap average system like many here then wire will not make huge diffence.If you have $20k mono blocks and $10k speakers and other top componets'wire does have small effect on the sound.The difference is silver and copper can be heard quite easily.Go to audiogon forums where those who know and actully have systems and try different wire hang out.Also their are other high end sites to try.Bob

You and I are in total agreement that this is the wrong forum to ask about speaker wire and/or interconnect questions. At least when it comes to High-End audio.

Even though I side with the 'cables DO make a difference' crowd; for more basic systems and HT, the advice here recommending places such as Mono Price Cables, etc... is sound... no pun intended.tongue.gif

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post #19 of 410 Old 06-23-2012, 11:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Rutgar View Post

MIT cables are neither straight, or active... so already, you show you have no clue of what you're talking about.
Is that indignant enough for you?

What is your issue? If you like the sound of MIT cables, have fun. They are for those that need a cable to cover up the deficiencies of their speakers or amps.

Rather than chastise everyone that disagrees with you....provide some test comparisons to substantiate MIT's performance. Otherwise, you should take your own advice and try to stay away from trying to "win" the circular debate. smile.gif

I know they are not straight cables and perhaps they are not "active" in the sense that they do not have power, but they do have a "magic box" inline that alters/colors the sound.
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post #20 of 410 Old 06-23-2012, 11:53 AM
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Originally Posted by buddahead View Post

Asking wire questions here is like asking Homeless people the difference in good wine.I would say most here have never own a high end system where wire can make a difference.If you have a cheap average system like many here then wire will not make huge diffence.If you have $20k mono blocks and $10k speakers and other top componets'wire does have small effect on the sound.The difference is silver and copper can be heard quite easily.Go to audiogon forums where those who know and actully have systems and try different wire hang out.Also their are other high end sites to try.Bob

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Originally Posted by Rutgar View Post

You and I are in total agreement that this is the wrong forum to ask about speaker wire and/or interconnect questions. At least when it comes to High-End audio.
Even though I side with the 'cables DO make a difference' crowd; for more basic systems and HT, the advice here recommending places such as Mono Price Cables, etc... is sound... no pun intended.tongue.gif

Dang it! I have $44k speakers but only $6k amps.frown.gif Looks like I'm screwed.

No wonder I could not tell any difference between skinny 16 Ga "speaker wire" and fat Monster Z Series cables or 12 Ga. OFC cable from the local electronics hobby shop or interwoven Kimber Cable or braided Straightwire or flat Nordost (when I could not see the wire in use). I needed better amps! eek.gif

But wait. Maybe it was the speaker wire that prevented me from picking a Pass Labs from a Mark Levinson from a Jeff Rowland from a Threshold from an ATI (when I could not see the amp in use)? Twice deceived!! eek.gifeek.gif

Or maybe it was the darn pre, or the stand, or the component isolation, or the interconnects, or the wires touching the floor, or the source, or the DAC, or the quality of the electricity, or the media, or the sample rate, or my gullible humanity, or all of the above? eek.gifeek.gifeek.gif

BTW, I kept the Monster Z Series cable because I got it super cheap and it looked bitchin', without adding or subtracting anything--if anything--sonically different than the others.

I'm not a big fan of DBT advocates who make a religion out of their "scientific dogma." No one can meet the absurd requirements they try to impose to disprove someone else's subjective beliefs. By the same token, people believe all kinds of things that can't stand up to the simplest forms of investigative scrutiny, and in my own blind trials, when I don't know what's in and what's out, there's no statistical significance to any of my "preferences" when wires, cables, amps, interconnects, and transports are of comparable specs, regardless of price, and this is especially true of speaker wire. Throw in an electrical component or filter or small network, and of course now it's not a like thing anymore and will sound different. If you like it, fine, but that only proves it's different, not better.

With the Monster Z Series, the difference was it looked better to me. I couldn't tell it from either the cheapest or the most expensive wire otherwise.
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post #21 of 410 Old 06-23-2012, 11:55 AM
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They are for those that need a cable to cover up the deficiencies of their speakers or amps.
Well, they're compensating for something, anyway. smile.gif
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but they do have a "magic box" inline that alters/colors the sound.
Or makes people think they do!

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post #22 of 410 Old 06-23-2012, 12:01 PM
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Originally Posted by buddahead View Post

Asking wire questions here is like asking Homeless people the difference in good wine.

There are many people with tons of money and fancy homes who still lack the knowledge and experience that it takes to know when wine is a good deal or a rip-off. Many of the people who brag about the fancy wine they drink are new rich, just trying to put on a show.

Since this is an online forum, it is impossible to separate the posers from the true connoisseurs just based on their talk. You are not going to find a poser who doesn't brag about his expensive taste.
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I would say most here have never own a high end system where wire can make a difference

Why would you say that? Is it because of your great love for the brotherhood of all men? Is it because of your great technical wisdom?
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.If you have a cheap average system like many here then wire will not make huge diffence.

That is true, but only because wire beyond certain readily achievable point cables make no audible difference in any system, expensive or cheap. This has been shown be true in DBTs conducted on very expensive high end systems. This can also be shown to be true with the most sensitive test equipment.
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If you have $20k mono blocks and $10k speakers and other top componets'wire does have small effect on the sound.

This in fact has never been shown to be true using good listening test procedures.

Of course if you rely on sighted evaluations, you can find any result that you might want to, even this one!
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The difference is silver and copper can be heard quite easily.

Of all materials that can be used for wire, silver and copper are the most electrically similar. If you compare copper and silver wires with the same conductivity (meaning the silver wire is a few percent smaller), even measurable differences are very difficult to find.
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Go to audiogon forums where those who know and actully have systems and try different wire hang out.Also their are other high end sites to try.Bob

Note that Audigon is basically a marketplace - a place where people go to sell stuff. It's where I sold my Pass SA 6E.
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post #23 of 410 Old 06-23-2012, 12:11 PM
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Originally Posted by filecat13 View Post

I'm not a big fan of DBT advocates who make a religion out of their "scientific dogma."

I'm not a fan of DBT critics who make a religion out of preferences developed in bogus and questionable listening tests.
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No one can meet the absurd requirements they try to impose to disprove someone else's subjective beliefs.

In fact we can and have met the logical requirements that we first imposed on ourselves before we recommended them to anybody else. Some people have what it takes to organize and perform a good logical experiment, but many others can't. In my opinon and experience, the requirements for a good listening test are easy enough to meet.
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By the same token, people believe all kinds of things that can't stand up to the simplest forms of investigative scrutiny,

Example being the false offensive claims you made just above.
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..In my own blind trials,...

"Blind trials" usually being code for a test that would have been a good DBT except for its intentional defects... Is it fish, is it fowl?
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post #24 of 410 Old 06-23-2012, 12:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Rutgar View Post

I normally stay out of these cable debates, because they're circular, no one side will convince the other, and they are generally talking about 'straight wire'. However, MIT cables are NOT simply straight wire, and DO affect the sound. I have known people who do not care for the effect, but I know many that do (myself included). So go ahead and continue your anti-cable dog pile, but you guys are simply wrong in your assertions concerning MIT products in general.

Uh, I'm not wrong on my assertions about MIT. Any MIT product with a box of passive electronics in it ISN"T a cable. Why do people keep calling them cables? Jesus wept.

An audiophile likes to talk about how much they spent and how good it sounds.

A DIY'er likes to talk about how little they spent and how good it sounds.

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post #25 of 410 Old 06-23-2012, 12:44 PM
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Rutgar,

What if I were to have my Attorney draw up a contract that would cover:

1. Air fare
2. Accommodations
3. Food
4. Rental car
5. $5000 in cash

You can have 5 days of 8 hours where I will flip a coin 4 times a days and either make a change or not. Your choice of either Kimber or AQ (either line or speaker level your choice) and some Belden 5000ue for speaker or Mogami Gold for line level. The sessions will be video taped. The tapping is to make sure you don't look. Since you are a believer in the higher priced stuff sounding better then what other pros and enthusiasts consider adequate you have to stone cold say which is which. You will get zero sighted time. You're allowed as many breaks as you want and time enough for me to switch cables and replace storage in the camera.

1. I'll initially purchase either the Kimber or AQ (not constant bias systems or doohickies on the cable, because they aren't cables).
2. You put up $2500

If you can't hit a 90 percent rate then you lose. You pay the air fare, hotel, car, food plus the $2500. All monies will be held in escrow. I'm offering you 2:1 on your money.

An audiophile likes to talk about how much they spent and how good it sounds.

A DIY'er likes to talk about how little they spent and how good it sounds.

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post #26 of 410 Old 06-23-2012, 12:50 PM
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If there is a difference between "High-end wires" and "regular ones", it´s probably that you can listen that difference only with High-end systems, I own an entry level system and a friend borrowed me Monster speaker wires (14AWG), and I listened no difference between the Monsters (14AWG) and my AUTOMOTIVE GRADE tongue.gif wires (12AWG), since I´m not interested in the High-End Systems, FOR ME, it´s a waste of money buying those expensive cables, maybe for others would worth it, and it´s also great.
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post #27 of 410 Old 06-23-2012, 01:03 PM
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it´s probably that you can listen that difference only with High-end systems
Which could only occur if so-called high-end systems caused the cables to conduct electricity differently.

If you can't explain how it works, you can't say it doesn't.—The High-End Creed

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post #28 of 410 Old 06-23-2012, 01:06 PM
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Any MIT product with a box of passive electronics in it ISN"T a cable.
That's assuming what's in the box are passive electronics. I have seen reported cases where people opened such boxes up (and I do not recall which brand of cables they were) and found nothing but a wire. In which case, despite the magic box, it still is a cable.

If you can't explain how it works, you can't say it doesn't.—The High-End Creed

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post #29 of 410 Old 06-23-2012, 02:53 PM
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Originally Posted by buddahead View Post

Asking wire questions here is like asking Homeless people the difference in good wine...Bob

Misinformation is simply being confronted with evidence-based, verifiable information, and suddenly the reality-based community are homeless folks who don't know their wine. Sorry, Bob, but that's a horrible analogy.

Plus, you're begging the question, i.e. implicitly assuming boutique wires make a difference without any supporting evidence.
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post #30 of 410 Old 06-23-2012, 03:25 PM
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Originally Posted by buddahead View Post

...Go to audiogon forums where those who know and actully have systems and try different wire hang out.Also their are other high end sites to try.Bob

And, they are credible and you get credible responses because????
Who certified them???
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