integrated for Salk Songtowers & Rythmic sub - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 63 Old 07-09-2012, 07:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Please suggest an integrated for
Salk Songtowers with RAAL(4ohm)
Rythmic sub

budget $500

new or used

phono not needed

TIA.
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post #2 of 63 Old 07-09-2012, 07:19 PM - Thread Starter
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How about these:

Music Hall A15.2

Music Hall A25.2
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post #3 of 63 Old 07-09-2012, 08:13 PM
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Check out the Outlaw Audio RR2150. A bit above your price,
BUT it has bass mgmt for your Rythmic sub.
160 watts at 4 ohms.

http://www.outlawaudio.com/products/rr2150.html

B-stock $625 & free shipping.
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post #4 of 63 Old 07-10-2012, 02:57 AM
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HK 3490. 150 watts at 4 ohms. 120 at 8 ohms. Less than 500. Its a stereo reciever, not an integrated. HK considered a powerful reciever. It will have no problem driving songtowers. Any reciever with an honest 80 wpc at 8 ohms will drive them. The songtowers are an easy load.
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post #5 of 63 Old 07-10-2012, 05:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blackscorpio View Post

Please suggest an integrated for
Salk Songtowers with RAAL(4ohm)
Rythmic sub
budget $500
new or used
phono not needed
TIA.

Given the generally poor price/performance of modern integrated amps, why not a receiver?
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post #6 of 63 Old 07-10-2012, 07:48 AM
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The typical receiver manufacturer puts about $20 into each amplifier channel, and they sound like it; the sound quality is SO much worse than even a low-priced Cambridge integrated amplifier that the choice seems clear if good sound is an issue of importance.

Given the 3rd-rate sound of most modern HT receivers, why not a good integrated amplifier, where the money has been strictly put into the sound quality instead of a lot of "bells and whistles" features that have nothing to do with sound.

There are a few good-sounding integrated amplifiers in the range of $800-$1600 dollars, but there is ONE (and only one, that I know of) for less that sounds very good.

It is the Music Hall A15.2, which is absolutely exceptional for its price. Music Direct is selling it now for $499, which is a bargain (it was $800). (I see that blackscorpio also recommended it...).
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post #7 of 63 Old 07-10-2012, 08:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by commsysman View Post

The typical receiver manufacturer puts about $20 into each amplifier channel, and they sound like it; the sound quality is SO much worse than even a low-priced Cambridge integrated amplifier that the choice seems clear if good sound is an issue of importance.

That's one of those "Audiophile facts" that disappears on the test bench and in a properly done listening test. The true part is the cost estimate, but what's not said is what the high priced spread would cost if they could get the production levels up.

OTOH, if I tell you what you are listening to, we'll both hear it quite clearly, especially if we do it the traditional audiophile way - sighted, no level matching, and no close comparisons.
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post #8 of 63 Old 07-10-2012, 10:59 AM - Thread Starter
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Couple of things here:
Recently bought an Denon 3312 for an HT setup, so I am interested in integrated rather another receiver. I am no audiophile here so I will take the inputs from here. If the consensus are for receiver, I don't have a problem.

Flexible inputs is what I want.

Music Hall looks very interesting.

Appreciate your inputs so far.
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post #9 of 63 Old 07-10-2012, 11:24 AM - Thread Starter
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I found HK 3490 for a great price, open box/refurb though.

any ideas?

and some one please tell me integrated or stereo receiver?? which one is better?
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post #10 of 63 Old 07-10-2012, 11:26 AM - Thread Starter
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EDIT: sorry wrong place.
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post #11 of 63 Old 07-10-2012, 11:35 AM
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Quote:
I found HK 3490 for a great price, open box/refurb though.
Sounds good.
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and some one please tell me integrated or stereo receiver?? which one is better?
In terms of audible sound quality, neither. I use an integrated, mostly for the minimalist aesthetic. But you pay a premium for that.

If you can't explain how it works, you can't say it doesn't.—The High-End Creed

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post #12 of 63 Old 07-10-2012, 02:28 PM
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Receivers have a AM/FM tuner built in. W/an integrated you'll have to purchase it ala-carte. (That's if you want one) Sound wise I agree both sound the same. Also some units have extras like balance controls, phono stages, HDMI and sub outs. Just decide on the options you want.smile.gif
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post #13 of 63 Old 07-11-2012, 02:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blackscorpio View Post

I found HK 3490 for a great price, open box/refurb though.
any ideas?
and some one please tell me integrated or stereo receiver?? which one is better?


I'd say based on the two you picked the music hall and the hk3490 neither. is 'better'. Given commysman's argument about price/quality they are both 2 channel, and can be had new for about just under 500. So let's just assume his argument is valid, there isn't any appreciable difference between the two, except for the addition of a tuner in the hk.

Back to his argument, there may be some quality difference with integrateds. They are targeted to a much smaller market, but however, that price/quality relationship is highly non-linear, the dominant factor being the price is driven higher by a much smaller market, pure economics.
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post #14 of 63 Old 07-11-2012, 03:09 AM
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fwiw, there's a used outlaw rr 2150 tor sale on audiogon for $400 has bass management for your sub

i'm so laid back,i'm laid out
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post #15 of 63 Old 07-11-2012, 05:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smasher50 View Post

fwiw, there's a used outlaw rr 2150 tor sale on audiogon for $400 has bass management for your sub

Why would this be a better choice as compared to less costly, more flexible alternatives?
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post #16 of 63 Old 07-11-2012, 09:01 AM
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I think the OP is looking for integrated, as in the title.
...but a less costly alternative would be a nice pair of headphone?
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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

Why would this be a better choice as compared to less costly, more flexible alternatives?

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post #17 of 63 Old 07-11-2012, 09:23 AM
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No bass mgt like the 2150, maybe the Primare I21, often ~$500 on 2nd market.
Small power, but It drive the NHT M5 (85dB sensitivity) without problem for me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by smasher50 View Post

fwiw, there's a used outlaw rr 2150 tor sale on audiogon for $400 has bass management for your sub

I see the atoms free and fine,

That bubble like a sparkling wine;
I see the songs Electrons sing,
Jumping from ring to outer ring;
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post #18 of 63 Old 07-11-2012, 11:46 AM - Thread Starter
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Good argument.

so, there aren't any integrated that are good? I am more confused than before.

I am not interested in another AVR/stereo receiver, at this point I may want to increase my budget and get the separates. any suggestions?
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post #19 of 63 Old 07-11-2012, 11:56 AM
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There are lots of good integrated amps. Most are well beyond your budget. From a price/performance standpoint the stereo receivers mentioned should fit the bill nicely.
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post #20 of 63 Old 07-11-2012, 12:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks. lets move out of budget, any decent recommendations that are good for the salks?
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post #21 of 63 Old 07-11-2012, 01:23 PM
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I don't know how far out of your budget. I'd check crutch field or audio advisor and look at their integrated. I'd go for at least 80 wpc @8 ohms. Yamaha, Cambridge audio, nad all can be had without going to much in the stratosphere. After those you start getting real costly. Arcam, bryston , etc

I really don't feel comfortable with any recommendations. I'm not a big believer in matching a particular amp to speakers. You are getting song towers 95+% of your work is done. All the integrated amps will make song towers sound good. I plan to get song towers in the future. Currently I have a denon 3311ci. I like using audyssey, and some of the other features like airplay, etc even though I only use it in a 2 channel configuration. I'll use it with the song towers when I get them.
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post #22 of 63 Old 07-11-2012, 06:50 PM
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I would recommend that you look at the Van Alstine Insight + Integrated Control Amplifier. Frank Van Alstine and Jim Salk often demo their gear together. On the Audio by Van Alstine website, Frank indicates that he uses the Insight Integrated to drive Salk Veracity HT3's in his listening room, so they should certainly do well with Songtowers.

I have Songtowers and am currently driving them with an AVA Insight+ 240 Amp and an AVA Transcendence Eight + preamp. They work wonderfully together.
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post #23 of 63 Old 07-12-2012, 03:28 AM
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I thought about it some more. If it was me and cost was not a factor, I'd go with the HK 990 integrated (About 1795 is the cheapest I've seen) . It was DSP so you can seemlessly integrate a sub. Short of that for sub integration I'd stick with an AVR with at least Audyssey XT, preferrably Audyssey XT32.
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post #24 of 63 Old 07-12-2012, 04:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blackscorpio View Post

Thanks. lets move out of budget, any decent recommendations that are good for the salks?

It appears that you want to just illogically drop large amounts of money down an audio black hole for some purpose other than sound quality. Can't you find a deserving charity?
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post #25 of 63 Old 07-12-2012, 05:32 AM
 
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You won't beat the Music Hall integrateds.They have excellent sound'Build quailty is superb.Over size transfomers and parts.It will make a drastic difference.
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post #26 of 63 Old 07-12-2012, 06:18 AM
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Originally Posted by buddahead View Post

You won't beat the Music Hall integrateds.They have excellent sound'Build quailty is superb.Over size transfomers and parts.It will make a drastic difference.

Please explain. I don't see any Music Hall integrated amplifiers with digital inputs or bass management, for example.

Case in point, here is the back panel of the MH A70.2

163

This product could have been built 30 years ago!

Are there any available detailed technical tests that demonstrate any exceptional performance that would offset the high cost, backwards (as in hopelessly out of date) connectivity or relatively low power output (50 watts)?
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post #27 of 63 Old 07-12-2012, 08:42 AM
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Please indicate which amplifier you think has better build quality and why.
The second one, cuz it's got those little fins on the side.

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post #28 of 63 Old 07-12-2012, 08:44 AM
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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

Please explain. I don't see any Music Hall integrated amplifiers with digital inputs or bass management, for example.

The lack of digital inputs I can get. But why aren't these integrated amp manufacturers including a sub line out with a high pass filter for the speakers? You can't buy a mid-level amp in the car audio world without a high pass filter. Are they just clueless to the fact that people want to use subwoofers with their products? Even HK should be chastised, for while they include the sub line out on the HK 3390/3490 series, there's no high pass filter. Is it that expensive to implement without affecting audio quality?

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post #29 of 63 Old 07-12-2012, 08:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcnarus View Post

Quote:
Please indicate which amplifier you think has better build quality and why.
The second one, cuz it's got those little fins on the side.

I'd pick the second one as well. I can trace the wiring well enough to tell that the second one is dual-mono aside from the shared big toroidal power transformer. It has more spacious and better-dressed wriing. The circuit cards and the parts on them appear to be comparable.

I will wait for a few more replies before spilling the beans about makes and models.
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post #30 of 63 Old 07-12-2012, 08:58 AM
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Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

The lack of digital inputs I can get. But why aren't these integrated amp manufacturers including a sub line out with a high pass filter for the speakers? You can't buy a mid-level amp in the car audio world without a high pass filter. Are they just clueless to the fact that people want to use subwoofers with their products? Even HK should be chastised, for while they include the sub line out on the HK 3390/3490 series, there's no high pass filter. Is it that expensive to implement without affecting audio quality?

I think that the answer to your second point could change your preference for the first.

I think that most people want the following from a modern audio component: that centerpieces their system:

(1) Flexible connectivity with modern program sources that optimizes sound quality.

(2) Those womderful little things that don't show up on spec sheets like volume controls that have really good channel balance, inputs that don't bleed into to each other, and no audible hum and noise at low or zero setting volume together with a "controls everything" remote control.

(3) Bass management for sure with the ability to tailor your system to the room that its in and your preferences maybe even something like Audessy.

(4) A machine that just works like a legacy machine when you turn it on the first time and doesn't require a ton of work before you can start listening to tunes.
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