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post #181 of 214 Old 08-13-2012, 01:14 PM
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Good example is Bricasti M1 DAC (http://www.bricasti.com/m1.html). You do not need "golden ear" to hear the difference between several filter options in that device.
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post #182 of 214 Old 08-13-2012, 01:18 PM
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http://jn.physiology.org/content/83/6/3548.abstract
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Although it is generally accepted that humans cannot perceive sounds in the frequency range above 20 kHz, the question of whether the existence of such “inaudible” high-frequency components may affect the acoustic perception of audible sounds remains unanswered.
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Psychological evaluation indicated that the subjects felt the sound containing an HFC [high-frequency components] to be more pleasant than the same sound lacking an HFC. These results suggest the existence of a previously unrecognized response to complex sound containing particular types of high frequencies above the audible range. We term this phenomenon the “hypersonic effect.”
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post #183 of 214 Old 08-13-2012, 01:19 PM
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Originally Posted by ap1 View Post

Good example is Bricasti M1 DAC (http://www.bricasti.com/m1.html). You do not need "golden ear" to hear the difference between several filter options in that device.

My local dealer just got this in. I have yet to listen to it. Hopefully I will be able to test it out one of these days.
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post #184 of 214 Old 08-13-2012, 03:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Greg121986 View Post

http://jn.physiology.org/content/83/6/3548.abstract

Yet,

Attempts to independently reproduce these results [the "hypersonic effect"] have so far been unsuccessful.
-- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypersonic_effect#cite_note-Colloms2006-3
[Note: Wikipedia is not an independent reference.]

Judging from this review of the subject, the case for an ultrasonic reproducing bandwidth is not proven, and 20kHz remains the practical limit for the chain as a whole.
-- Proceedings of the Institute of Acoustics, Vol. 28. Pt.8. 2006

As a result, no significant difference was found between sounds with and without very high frequency components among the sound stimuli and the subjects.
-- NHK Laboratories Note No. 486 (2004)
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post #185 of 214 Old 08-13-2012, 05:25 PM
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Although it is generally accepted that humans cannot perceive sounds in the frequency range above 20 kHz, the question of whether the existence of such “inaudible” high-frequency components may affect the acoustic perception of audible sounds remains unanswered.
It's not much of a mystery. High frequencies can produce distortion in the audible range. That's now understood to be the explanation for that paper's unique findings.

If you can't explain how it works, you can't say it doesn't.—The High-End Creed

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post #186 of 214 Old 08-13-2012, 05:28 PM
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Good example is Bricasti M1 DAC (http://www.bricasti.com/m1.html). You do not need "golden ear" to hear the difference between several filter options in that device.
If so, one wonders how those filters are distorting the signal.

If you can't explain how it works, you can't say it doesn't.—The High-End Creed

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post #187 of 214 Old 08-13-2012, 05:41 PM
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Originally Posted by mcnarus View Post

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Good example is Bricasti M1 DAC (http://www.bricasti.com/m1.html). You do not need "golden ear" to hear the difference between several filter options in that device.
If so, one wonders how those filters are distorting the signal.

Any filter distorts signal in either frequency or time domain, the difference is how much and what type of distortion it adds. If it wasn't the case we wouldn't have dozen of possible transfer functions implemented in different DACs. Every sharp cutoff filter is a compromise, those which operate in real time even more so due to limited computing power.
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post #188 of 214 Old 08-13-2012, 06:09 PM
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Any filter distorts signal in either frequency or time domain, the difference is how much and what type of distortion it adds. If it wasn't the case we wouldn't have dozen of possible transfer functions implemented in different DACs. Every sharp cutoff filter is a compromise, those which operate in real time even more so due to limited computing power.
But if they're distorting the signal enough to be audible, their virtue escapes me. (And that if is intentional. I'm not conceding that they are in fact distorting the signal that much.) I want undistorted sound out of my source components. At least four of its five filters are doing something wrong, by that standard.

If you can't explain how it works, you can't say it doesn't.—The High-End Creed

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post #189 of 214 Old 08-14-2012, 04:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ap1 View Post

Good example is Bricasti M1 DAC (http://www.bricasti.com/m1.html). You do not need "golden ear" to hear the difference between several filter options in that device.

Really?

Here are the specs:

http://www.bricasti.com/images/M1.pdf

"
Table of filter characteristics at 48khz.

48khz Passband Stopband Passband ripple Stopband attenuation delay
Filter 0 20kHz 24kHz .001dB 111dB .73ms
Filter 1 20kHz 24kHz .005dB 102dB .63ms
Filter 2 19.5kHz 24kHz .004dB 103dB .56ms
Filter 3 19kHz 24kHz .005dB 102dB .51ms
Filter 4 18.5kHz 24kHz .003dB 106db .50ms
Filter 5 18kHz 24kHz .001dB 114dB .50ms
Filter 6 21.8kHz 26.3kHz .0002dB 110db .72ms
Filter 7 20kHz 24kHz .001dB 110dB .7ms
Filter 8 20kHz 24kHz .001dB 110dB .7ms

Table of filter characteristics at 44.1khz

44.1khz Passband Stopband Passband ripple Stopband attenuation delay
Filter 0 20kHz 22.05kHz .001dB 110dB 1.43ms
Filter 1 20kHz 22.05kHz .161dB 71dB .72ms
Filter 2 19.5kHz 22.05kHz .046dB 82dB .72ms
Filter 3 19kHz 22.05kHz .014dB 92dB .72ms
Filter 4 18.5kHz 22.05kHz .005dB 102db .72ms
Filter 5 18kHz 22.05kHz .001dB 112dB .72ms
Filter 6 20kHz 24kHz .0002dB 111db .78ms
Filter 7 19kHz 22kHz .001dB 110dB 1ms
Filter 8 20kHz 22kHz .001dB 110dB 1.5ms
"

All ripple is less than 0.1 dB (and not by just a little!) and all filters are flat out to at least 20 KHz.

What am I missing here?
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post #190 of 214 Old 08-14-2012, 05:00 AM
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Originally Posted by mcnarus View Post

But if they're distorting the signal enough to be audible, their virtue escapes me.

In the previous post (189) I provide the actual specs of the filters.

All appear to be flat out to 20 KHz, with far less than 0.1 dB ripple.

AP1 appears to be inventing new science when it comes to audibility. ;-)
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(And that if is intentional. I'm not conceding that they are in fact distorting the signal that much.)

Wise, not to concede to AP1's apparent false claims.
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I want undistorted sound out of my source components. At least four of its five filters are doing something wrong, by that standard.

Actually, all options represent brilliant performance. But there will be no end of audiophiles and reviewers who will publish a short poem about what they think it sounds like - all based on the sheerest of all imagination. If they harnessed that literary skill to writing about the partner of their choosing, at least they'd get a little lovin' ;-)
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post #191 of 214 Old 08-14-2012, 05:33 AM
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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

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Originally Posted by mcnarus View Post

But if they're distorting the signal enough to be audible, their virtue escapes me.

In the previous post (189) I provide the actual specs of the filters.

All appear to be flat out to 20 KHz, with far less than 0.1 dB ripple.

AP1 appears to be inventing new science when it comes to audibility. ;-)
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(And that if is intentional. I'm not conceding that they are in fact distorting the signal that much.)

Wise, not to concede to AP1's apparent false claims.
Quote:
I want undistorted sound out of my source components. At least four of its five filters are doing something wrong, by that standard.

Actually, all options represent brilliant performance. But there will be no end of audiophiles and reviewers who will publish a short poem about what they think it sounds like - all based on the sheerest of all imagination. If they harnessed that literary skill to writing about the partner of their choosing, at least they'd get a little lovin' ;-)

Specs are just that - specs. They are always lImIted to WHAT was measured. I heard the difference switching between filters in that device. Sometimes more, sometimes less. Instead of theorizing here go to a dealer and listen yourself. Then come back and tell about what YOU heard.
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post #192 of 214 Old 08-14-2012, 05:39 AM
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Sigh. Some people just never learn.

If you can't explain how it works, you can't say it doesn't.—The High-End Creed

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post #193 of 214 Old 08-14-2012, 06:31 AM
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Originally Posted by ap1 View Post

Specs are just that - specs. They are always lImIted to WHAT was measured. I heard the difference switching between filters in that device. Sometimes more, sometimes less. Instead of theorizing here go to a dealer and listen yourself. Then come back and tell about what YOU heard.

Typical audiophile rhetoric. The theme is that no matter how many listening tests you've done related to products like these, and differences like these, this new toy is magic and breaks all of the rules. Their sighted tests trump everything else in the world.

It is likely pure solipsism.

Logic says that the differences between the various filters are well-characterized by the vendor's spec sheet because it is highly unlikely that anything else with audible significance changed.

The variations involved are often in the hundreths and even in thousandths of a dB. At 20 KHz a 5.0 dB difference can slip by everybody's ears for reasons I've previously explained.
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post #194 of 214 Old 08-14-2012, 06:53 AM
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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

Typical audiophile rhetoric. The theme is that no matter how many listening tests you've done related to products like these, and differences like these, this new toy is magic and breaks all of the rules. Their sighted tests trump everything else in the world.
It is likely pure solipsism.
Logic says that the differences between the various filters are well-characterized by the vendor's spec sheet because it is highly unlikely that anything else with audible significance changed.
The variations involved are often in the hundreths and even in thousandths of a dB. At 20 KHz a 5.0 dB difference can slip by everybody's ears for reasons I've previously explained.

Arnyk, can you make it to Royal Oak/Clawson area this weekend? We can test this DAC out at David Michael Audio. biggrin.gif
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Originally Posted by ap1 View Post

go to a dealer and listen yourself.
Would you recommend taking one of these to the dealer when doing that? http://images10.newegg.com/ProductImageCompressAll300/82-461-009-02.jpg
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post #196 of 214 Old 08-14-2012, 08:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Greg121986 View Post

Arnyk, can you make it to Royal Oak/Clawson area this weekend? We can test this DAC out at David Michael Audio. biggrin.gif

Is he equipped to do good clean DBTs?

Otherwise, not worth the trouble to even think about.
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post #197 of 214 Old 08-14-2012, 08:18 AM
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Originally Posted by diomania View Post

Would you recommend taking one of these to the dealer when doing that? http://images10.newegg.com/ProductImageCompressAll300/82-461-009-02.jpg

Actually, it would take more than that.

The biggies are listening to exactly the same music and getting the switching time down to subsecond and DB. Otherwise the evaluation is hopelessly compromised.

Besides, I'm hundreds of tries down this road and it is about as much fun to do yourself as watching paint dry.

Let some golden ear actually do a good test with positive results, and maybe it would be worth the trouble to run a confirmation. ;-)
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post #198 of 214 Old 08-14-2012, 08:20 AM
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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

Is he equipped to do good clean DBTs?
Otherwise, not worth the trouble to even think about.

I think we could make it work. All of his gear is accessible enough to where we could have someone swapping out components within 20 - 30 seconds. You're not going to have instantaneous switching, though.
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post #199 of 214 Old 08-14-2012, 08:45 AM
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I think we could make it work. All of his gear is accessible enough to where we could have someone swapping out components within 20 - 30 seconds.
Nowhere near good enough. If the filters really did sound subtly different (which they obviously don't), that time delay would make it impossible to identify them in a true blind test.

If you can't explain how it works, you can't say it doesn't.—The High-End Creed

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Originally Posted by Greg121986 View Post

I think we could make it work. All of his gear is accessible enough to where we could have someone swapping out components within 20 - 30 seconds. You're not going to have instantaneous switching, though.

That's hopelessly compromised in terms of sensitivity for small SQ differences. Over 30 times too much switch over delay to hear small differences. It needs to be well under 1 second.

The only beneficiaries of this test if done right is going to be someone other than me.

You can pay me to deal with this sort of thing, time and materials at $120/hr with a 4 hour minimum. I can refer you to someone in the area who is better known than I to do it for a higher price. ;-)

Nobody wants to know the inconvenient truth at that price!
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post #201 of 214 Old 08-14-2012, 08:45 AM
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Is he equipped to do good clean DBTs?
Never mind that. He's a high-end dealer. Do you think he's gonna cooperate?

If you can't explain how it works, you can't say it doesn't.—The High-End Creed

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post #202 of 214 Old 08-14-2012, 08:59 AM
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Never mind that. He's a high-end dealer. Do you think he's gonna cooperate?

I have a very good relationship with this dealer. I would be able to work it out. But alas, Arnyk must be paid for his time and nobody as small time as myself is going to be able to pay Arnyk for his scientific research.
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post #203 of 214 Old 08-14-2012, 09:23 AM
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I have a very good relationship with this dealer. I would be able to work it out.
I do not think you appreciate the attitude that such dealers have about blind testing. It is a mortal threat to their economic survival, and they know it.

My suggestion is that you buy the unit, and then offer to take it to Arny's for the test.

If you can't explain how it works, you can't say it doesn't.—The High-End Creed

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post #204 of 214 Old 08-14-2012, 09:57 AM
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Originally Posted by mcnarus View Post

I do not think you appreciate the attitude that such dealers have about blind testing. It is a mortal threat to their economic survival, and they know it.
My suggestion is that you buy the unit, and then offer to take it to Arny's for the test.

They already have a room setup with room treatments and such so I think it would be a good location to do the test. But, for that matter I would suspect Arny has a treated room as well.

I will see if I can borrow the DAC for a bit. wink.gif
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post #205 of 214 Old 08-14-2012, 10:45 AM
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They already have a room setup with room treatments and such so I think it would be a good location to do the test. But, for that matter I would suspect Arny has a treated room as well.
I will see if I can borrow the DAC for a bit. wink.gif

I do just about all of my technical work either on-site or with headphones. My listening room is untreated.
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post #206 of 214 Old 08-14-2012, 10:48 AM
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Originally Posted by diomania View Post

Would you recommend taking one of these to the dealer when doing that? http://images10.newegg.com/ProductImageCompressAll300/82-461-009-02.jpg

You do not need this. In Bricasti filter algorithm is switched with simple push of the button. Everything else stays the same.
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post #207 of 214 Old 08-14-2012, 11:03 AM
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You do not need this. In Bricasti filter algorithm is switched with simple push of the button. Everything else stays the same.

Yea this is correct. I was thinking that we were testing different DACs for some reason but the filters would be changed from the remote. So in that case level matching and such would not be required. Give someone else the remote and have them change the filter for you.
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post #208 of 214 Old 08-14-2012, 11:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Greg121986 View Post

Yea this is correct. I was thinking that we were testing different DACs for some reason but the filters would be changed from the remote. So in that case level matching and such would not be required. Give someone else the remote and have them change the filter for you.

One way to do blind testing with devices like this is to have a person who is hidden from all of the listeners.

Let him flip a coin in secret and make a numbered secret list of unknowns. Since there are more than 2 choices he should flip a number of coins, count heads as 0 and tails as 1 on the first coin he picks up after each toss, then heads as 2 and tails as 3 on the second coin he picks up, etc., and sum the value of the coins tossed for each unknown.

Then when the listeners call out a trial number, he consults the list and selects the filter associated with that number. They write down the filter number they think they are listening to and keep their results to themselves.

When all of the trials are complete, compare the secret operator's list with the listener's lists.

Score in accordance with this:

http://home.provide.net/~djcarlst/abx_bino.htm
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post #209 of 214 Old 08-14-2012, 12:08 PM
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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

I do just about all of my technical work either on-site or with headphones. My listening room is untreated.

What headphones do you prefer?
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post #210 of 214 Old 08-14-2012, 01:07 PM
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Originally Posted by ap1 View Post

You do not need this. In Bricasti filter algorithm is switched with simple push of the button. Everything else stays the same.
Nonetheless, you should confirm this with an onsite measurement. Lots of audio components do not behave as advertised.

If you can't explain how it works, you can't say it doesn't.—The High-End Creed

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