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Wayne Highwood's Avatar Wayne Highwood
10:36 PM Liked: 35
post #31 of 48
08-02-2012 | Posts: 165
Joined: Jun 2012
Donut, here is another you should check out.
donutfan's Avatar donutfan
08:19 PM Liked: 19
post #32 of 48
08-03-2012 | Posts: 390
Joined: Jul 2011
^ nice!
PooperScooper's Avatar PooperScooper
07:13 AM Liked: 567
post #33 of 48
08-04-2012 | Posts: 20,036
Joined: Dec 2002
You can "easily" put one or two subwoofers in a system with an analog preamp if the subwoofer has its on crossover. I just added two Velodyne Optimum 8's into my 2ch system and have gotten excellent results. I just wanted a slight "beef up" of the bottom end in my system. The subs have speaker inputs and line level inputs and outputs handled by the sub's crossover. I tried the speaker input setup first and after dinking with the sub crossover and sub volume I've got the subs merged seamlessly into the sound stage. I'm so pleased that at this point I have no interest in trying the line level route: preamp -> sub -> amp -> speaker, even after buying new interconnects to facilitate the setup. And, obviously, using the speaker input on the sub still allows full range to my speakers vs the sub crossover filtering low end to the speakers with the line level approach. I forgot to add that these subs also have an automatic "room correction or calibration" feature and come with a microphone.

larry
stevensctt's Avatar stevensctt
11:04 AM Liked: 17
post #34 of 48
08-04-2012 | Posts: 1,360
Joined: Nov 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by PooperScooper View Post

You can "easily" put one or two subwoofers in a system with an analog preamp if the subwoofer has its on crossover. I just added two Velodyne Optimum 8's into my 2ch system and have gotten excellent results. I just wanted a slight "beef up" of the bottom end in my system. The subs have speaker inputs and line level inputs and outputs handled by the sub's crossover. I tried the speaker input setup first and after dinking with the sub crossover and sub volume I've got the subs merged seamlessly into the sound stage. I'm so pleased that at this point I have no interest in trying the line level route: preamp -> sub -> amp -> speaker, even after buying new interconnects to facilitate the setup. And, obviously, using the speaker input on the sub still allows full range to my speakers vs the sub crossover filtering low end to the speakers with the line level approach. I forgot to add that these subs also have an automatic "room correction or calibration" feature and come with a microphone.
larry

I agree and do the same with a couple of integrated amps. Arguably a better arrangement and makes bass management output a non-issue
donutfan's Avatar donutfan
12:45 PM Liked: 19
post #35 of 48
08-04-2012 | Posts: 390
Joined: Jul 2011
Unfortunately, 99% of the subs I have looked at do not include an adjustable crossover for the speaker level outputs. In other words, the crossover adustment control on the sub affects only the subwoofer itself. This creates the potential for a "hole" in the sat+sub system's overall output and/or phase issues: the speaker level xovers I've seen almost always use a relatively high crossover point e.g. 100Hz with a shallow cutoff slope of 6dB/octave. So while a good-sounding system is still possible with such a crossover system, IMO it makes it more difficult to properly blend the sats with the subwoofer.
Nyal Mellor's Avatar Nyal Mellor
01:34 PM Liked: 98
post #36 of 48
08-04-2012 | Posts: 1,113
Joined: Aug 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by donutfan View Post

Unfortunately, 99% of the subs I have looked at do not include an adjustable crossover for the speaker level outputs. In other words, the crossover adustment control on the sub affects only the subwoofer itself. This creates the potential for a "hole" in the sat+sub system's overall output and/or phase issues: the speaker level xovers I've seen almost always use a relatively high crossover point e.g. 100Hz with a shallow cutoff slope of 6dB/octave. So while a good-sounding system is still possible with such a crossover system, IMO it makes it more difficult to properly blend the sats with the subwoofer.

If you measure the main speakers by themselves you can 'craft' the sub crossover to fill in the bottom end. That's how I do it when I integrate subs into a system without a crossover for the mains. See the blog article I wrote:subwoofer crossover frequency, slope and phase for two channel systems
kiwi2's Avatar kiwi2
03:34 PM Liked: 144
post #37 of 48
08-04-2012 | Posts: 1,631
Joined: Nov 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nyal Mellor View Post

If you measure the main speakers by themselves you can 'craft' the sub crossover to fill in the bottom end. That's how I do it when I integrate subs into a system without a crossover for the mains. See the blog article

I like using 2-way monitors in my smallish room and have found that they benefit greatly from having 60 hz and below taken off them. It increases their clarity/crispness in the mid-range... and especially when I want to crank the volume!

Most subs I have looked at in my price range don't have speaker output after its crossover. So without an AVR or added digital processing unit it was impossible to crossover from monitors to subs. I could only run monitors full range with the subs in support.

And I would also be dubious on relying on a sub crossover to feed my speakers even if it had one. I have two identical subs in my room that were purchased new at the same time. A while back I thought I had blown one of them because it was sounding very muddy and booming compared to the other one that was very tight and tactile. Turns out the problem was that the low pass filter bypass switch had been knocked and the sub's low pass filter was active (even though it was set as high as it would go at 120 hz) Flicking the switch back to 'bypass' instantly solved the problem. I was astonished at the difference between the digital crossover in the AVR compared to a physical low pass filter.
cel4145's Avatar cel4145
06:08 PM Liked: 795
post #38 of 48
08-04-2012 | Posts: 11,797
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Quote:
Originally Posted by donutfan View Post

Unfortunately, 99% of the subs I have looked at do not include an adjustable crossover for the speaker level outputs. In other words, the crossover adustment control on the sub affects only the subwoofer itself. This creates the potential for a "hole" in the sat+sub system's overall output and/or phase issues: the speaker level xovers I've seen almost always use a relatively high crossover point e.g. 100Hz with a shallow cutoff slope of 6dB/octave. So while a good-sounding system is still possible with such a crossover system, IMO it makes it more difficult to properly blend the sats with the subwoofer.

Agreed.

It's hard to buy a decent 2 or 4 channel amp in car audio without analog high pass filter and low pass filter dials with on/off switches. I think the home audio manufacturers are oblivious to the fact that their market is changing. It doesn't have to be full digital bass management. Most people wanting to integrate subs would be happy with that kind of dial setup and and an LFE jack on the back of their amp as long as the crossovers were decent. How much could this add to the cost of an integrated amp?
PooperScooper's Avatar PooperScooper
09:56 AM Liked: 567
post #39 of 48
08-05-2012 | Posts: 20,036
Joined: Dec 2002
Quote:
Originally Posted by donutfan View Post

Unfortunately, 99% of the subs I have looked at do not include an adjustable crossover for the speaker level outputs. In other words, the crossover adustment control on the sub affects only the subwoofer itself. This creates the potential for a "hole" in the sat+sub system's overall output and/or phase issues: the speaker level xovers I've seen almost always use a relatively high crossover point e.g. 100Hz with a shallow cutoff slope of 6dB/octave. So while a good-sounding system is still possible with such a crossover system, IMO it makes it more difficult to properly blend the sats with the subwoofer.

Yes, and unfortunately you won't know until you try. And it's tough to judge by others experiences because the room size and type, speaker type and placement, and the speaker's characteristics will all come into play when trying to dial in the sub. And who has the exact same room, speakers and placement? And ears. smile.gif My case is probably the "simplest" because my mains are full range and I just wanted to extend the low end some and beef up a bit where they overlap.

larry
donutfan's Avatar donutfan
02:55 PM Liked: 19
post #40 of 48
08-05-2012 | Posts: 390
Joined: Jul 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

It's hard to buy a decent 2 or 4 channel amp in car audio without analog high pass filter and low pass filter dials with on/off switches.
+1 (heck I saw those way back in the mid 90s on $200 amps, so it's not like it is some kind of hi-tech/pricey technology)
Quote:
I think the home audio manufacturers are oblivious to the fact that their market is changing
Younger folks (@30 and younger) have grown up with subwoofers, and I think making it easier for them to use them with an audio-only system would be a good way to attract more customers.
Quote:
It doesn't have to be full digital bass management. Most people wanting to integrate subs would be happy with that kind of dial setup and and an LFE jack on the back of their amp as long as the crossovers were decent.
:thumbsup:
donutfan's Avatar donutfan
03:04 PM Liked: 19
post #41 of 48
08-05-2012 | Posts: 390
Joined: Jul 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by PooperScooper View Post

Yes, and unfortunately you won't know until you try.
True. But the inclusion of a bass management system sure would improve one's chances of success!
kzhtoo's Avatar kzhtoo
12:42 AM Liked: 17
post #42 of 48
08-06-2012 | Posts: 274
Joined: Apr 2012
I've been thinking about the same "issue" for awhile now. I have had an all-in-one (music, HT, gaming) 2.1 system running by a receiver. After I upgraded my speakers and adding a quality external amp, I feel there's more to it than the music performance I'm getting now and feel the pre-amp/dac section in the receiver is the weak link.

But it seems to me that I won't be able get there unless I spend about $5k for pre/pro such as Anthem AVM 50v or Classe CP800. My current receiver is Anthem MRX and I love its room correction and bass management but I feel pre-amp section might be a little weak to get the best out of my system. My speakers are Focal Electra and Paradigm Sub12. Amp is Pass Labs XA30.5.

Anyone feel integrating a pre-amp/dac like Peachtree NovaPre or Benchmark Dac pre is a good move for music playback? My main concerns are losing room correction, quality sub integration and EQ currently provided by MRX.
kzhtoo's Avatar kzhtoo
12:58 AM Liked: 17
post #43 of 48
08-06-2012 | Posts: 274
Joined: Apr 2012
And I'm not even sure AVM50v will give significant upgrade over MRX in terms of sound quality. frown.gif plus I'll be paying for video processing capability I don't care much about.

But for Classe CP800, I won't get hdmi ins.
PooperScooper's Avatar PooperScooper
04:47 AM Liked: 567
post #44 of 48
08-06-2012 | Posts: 20,036
Joined: Dec 2002
Quote:
Originally Posted by donutfan View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by PooperScooper View Post

Yes, and unfortunately you won't know until you try.
True. But the inclusion of a bass management system sure would improve one's chances of success!
What's the difference in what you hear for 2ch if the crossover is in the sub or the preamp?

larry
arnyk's Avatar arnyk
07:09 AM Liked: 1205
post #45 of 48
08-06-2012 | Posts: 14,530
Joined: Oct 2002
Quote:
Originally Posted by donutfan View Post

Unfortunately, 99% of the subs I have looked at do not include an adjustable crossover for the speaker level outputs. In other words, the crossover adustment control on the sub affects only the subwoofer itself. This creates the potential for a "hole" in the sat+sub system's overall output and/or phase issues: the speaker level xovers I've seen almost always use a relatively high crossover point e.g. 100Hz with a shallow cutoff slope of 6dB/octave. So while a good-sounding system is still possible with such a crossover system, IMO it makes it more difficult to properly blend the sats with the subwoofer.

Speaker-level crossovers are always a crap shoot unless specifically designed for the specific speakers involved, because their performance depends acutely on the impedance curves of the customer's speakers.

I recently migrated from using the speaker level crossovers in my sub to the bass management in my AVR, and the improvement in over-all cleanliness and bass detail was astounding. The mains have 8 inch woofers, so they are probably far more competent in the bass than most systems with 6.5 or 4 inch woofers.
donutfan's Avatar donutfan
10:18 AM Liked: 19
post #46 of 48
08-06-2012 | Posts: 390
Joined: Jul 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by PooperScooper View Post

What's the difference in what you hear for 2ch if the crossover is in the sub or the preamp?
larry
Probably nothing, if there is an actual bass management system present. And personally speaking, that means low AND high pass filters (distance compensation would be nice too).
arnyk's Avatar arnyk
01:07 PM Liked: 1205
post #47 of 48
08-06-2012 | Posts: 14,530
Joined: Oct 2002
Quote:
Originally Posted by PooperScooper View Post

What's the difference in what you hear for 2ch if the crossover is in the sub or the preamp?
larry

Or, the third option - a separate component.

In any case its about the crossover frequencies, the slopes, the relative levels and the routing of the channels, any equalization, etc., not where the circuity is. That presumes the circuitry is at a reasonable quality level.
donutfan's Avatar donutfan
10:49 AM Liked: 19
post #48 of 48
04-29-2013 | Posts: 390
Joined: Jul 2011
bump! smile.gif

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