Can I play 96khz/24bit music out of computer into AVR using HDMI cable? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 24 Old 11-10-2012, 05:54 PM - Thread Starter
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I want to download the Steely Dan Gaucho album off of HDtracks. I have been playing normal Itunes music out of my computer into AVR using an HDMI cable.

I am not sure how it works with FLAC files though. If I download this and use Media Monkey as my player, will I be able to play the 96khz/24bit files by connecting my computer to the AVR using an HDMI cable? If so, is it worth it to pay the $18 or will it sound just as good to buy the actual cd for $10?

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post #2 of 24 Old 11-10-2012, 07:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by benclement11 View Post

I am not sure how it works with FLAC files though. If I download this and use Media Monkey as my player, will I be able to play the 96khz/24bit files by connecting my computer to the AVR using an HDMI cable? If so, is it worth it to pay the $18 or will it sound just as good to buy the actual cd for $10?

 

The HDMI interface can carry 1980x1020x60p video and 7.1-channel, 24/96, DTS HD Master Audio at the same time. Two channel, 24-bit, 96kHz audio is much easier. The question is how Media Monkey works. I'm a foobar200 user, so I can't answer that.

 

Will 24/96 audio sound any different from, much less better than, 16/44.1? Almost certainly not.

 

Are HDTracks' files created from the same masters as the CD's? If they aren't, it's quite possible there's an audible difference.

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post #3 of 24 Old 11-10-2012, 07:50 PM
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Hi Ben,

There should not be a problem doing what you want. FLAC is not a format that can be streamed through HDMI, but it would be decoded into 96kHz LPCM by the player software in your computer. All AVRs should accept stereo LPCM, and most audio-player software should be able to create it from FLAC. Besides Media Monkey, I use VLC and Foobar to play FLAC.

However, I don't believe it will sound any better than the CD, mastering differences aside.

EDIT: Oops, Hamilcar beat me to the post. So I simply second his opinion.
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post #4 of 24 Old 11-10-2012, 11:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks guys. I appreciate the feedback. I see no point in buying HDtracks then if you can by these cds for .25 to .33 less. Just don't understand what the market for HD tracks is then if cd's sound as good. If you want the music on your computer just rip it. What am I missing?

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post #5 of 24 Old 11-11-2012, 02:43 AM
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Originally Posted by benclement11 View Post

Thanks guys. I appreciate the feedback. I see no point in buying HDtracks then if you can by these cds for .25 to .33 less. Just don't understand what the market for HD tracks is then if cd's sound as good. If you want the music on your computer just rip it. What am I missing?

Obviously not everyone thinks that they will sound the same. Regardless of whether or not you think 24 96 is superior to 16 44.1, 24 96 (and higher) tracks are generally targeted towards audiophiles and may have better mastering. Particular for pop/rock recordings where most current release are brickwalled on CD while the high res may have more dynamic range. Check out http://www.dr.loudness-war.info/

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post #6 of 24 Old 11-11-2012, 03:42 AM
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If I were you I would buy the Gaucho DVD-A for about the same price. Whether you can hear a difference is up to you to decide. I THINK I can hear a difference between 16 and 24 bits but that's entirely subjective and could be the product of the placebo effect. I use miniDSPs as electronic crossovers so everything going to my front speakers is resampled to 48kHz so that doesn't enter in to it for me.
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post #7 of 24 Old 11-11-2012, 03:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Theresa View Post

If I were you I would buy the Gaucho DVD-A for about the same price.

 

Assuming the OP has a DVD-A player. Only a few people I know are aware that DVD-A players exist. Nobody I know owns one. I do, but I've never even seen a DVD-A disc.

 

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Originally Posted by Theresa View Post

I THINK I can hear a difference between 16 and 24 bits but that's entirely subjective and could be the product of the placebo effect. I use miniDSPs as electronic crossovers so everything going to my front speakers is resampled to 48kHz so that doesn't enter in to it for me.
 

It may be psycho-acoustical. OTOH, a few people can hear a difference. Further, some "16-bit" recordings have something like 14.5 or 15 bits of fidelity. If the 24-bit recording has (say) 18 bits of fidelity, the number of people who can hear the difference increases.

 

Overall, I'm very skeptical about most individual cases and 24/96 vendors, but improvement is more than just a theoretical possibility.

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post #8 of 24 Old 11-12-2012, 05:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Mad Chemist View Post


Obviously not everyone thinks that they will sound the same

Yup, another missive from someone who believes that scientific truth is determined by popularity surveys.
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. Regardless of whether or not you think 24 96 is superior to 16 44.1, 24 96 (and higher) tracks are generally targeted towards audiophiles and may have better mastering.

Operative word being "may". Letsee, you can go to the casino and play the slots, or you can take audio advice from people who seem to believe that scientific truth is determined by popularity surveys.
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Particular for pop/rock recordings where most current release are brickwalled on CD while the high res may have more dynamic range.

This statement shows that the poster is unaware of the difference between bandpass and dynamic range. For future reference, they are orthogonal - IOW they exist completely independently of each other.
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post #9 of 24 Old 11-12-2012, 06:03 AM
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You are correct but I only know one other person with a BD player, that doesn't make them irrelevant. Try the Gaucho DVD-A, you'll like it. Yes it could be entirely psychological that I hear a difference between 16bit recordings and 24 bit ones. Frankly, the biggest difference I seem to hear is between 16 bit and 20 bit HDCDs. It could be because of better mastering of course. I've bought a lot of music from HDTracks and so have been able to make some comparisons. The weakness of HDTracks for me is that all their material is in stereo rather than multi-channel. I will no longer buy anything from them that is available on DVD-A or SACD multichannel from other sources.
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post #10 of 24 Old 11-12-2012, 07:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Theresa View Post

You are correct but I only know one other person with a BD player, that doesn't make them irrelevant.

I gotta ask where aren't there B;u Ray players on every streetcorner, and in every house?
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Try the Gaucho DVD-A, you'll like it.

I kinda like Steely Dan, retro music and all that.
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Yes it could be entirely psychological that I hear a difference between 16bit recordings and 24 bit ones. Frankly, the biggest difference I seem to hear is between 16 bit and 20 bit HDCDs. It could be because of better mastering of course.

Exactly.
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I've bought a lot of music from HDTracks and so have been able to make some comparisons.

Time synched, level matched, and bias controlled?
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post #11 of 24 Old 11-12-2012, 07:10 AM
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I don't think I could argue with you Arny. As I have stated mastering and other factors could certainly have affected my perception. I stand by what I said about my perception though. The subjective difference is enough to justify spending a little extra for DVD-As, SACDs, and HDTracks, mostly for content I don't already have on CD.
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post #12 of 24 Old 11-12-2012, 07:54 AM
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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

I gotta ask where aren't there B;u Ray players on every streetcorner, and in every house?

Most of the people I know are poor and on fixed incomes, they still use VHS VCRs.
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post #13 of 24 Old 11-12-2012, 08:39 AM
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You can rip DVD-A discs on a computer just like CDs. All you need is a DVD reader on your computer which is pretty much standard these days.

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post #14 of 24 Old 11-12-2012, 10:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

Yup, another missive from someone who believes that scientific truth is determined by popularity surveys.

Nice assumption. I in now way stated my opinion on 24bit 96kHz vs 16bit 44.1kHz. I was making an empirical statement that the mere presence of high res audio indicates that more than a few people find it to sound better. I never added myself to that group.
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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

Operative word being "may". Letsee, you can go to the casino and play the slots, or you can take audio advice from people who seem to believe that scientific truth is determined by popularity surveys.

What the hell are you arguing about here? Find the best mastered version. If its high res, buy that. CD buy that version. Simple as that.
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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

This statement shows that the poster is unaware of the difference between bandpass and dynamic range. For future reference, they are orthogonal - IOW they exist completely independently of each other.

You are just reaching today. Brick walled is commonly used in the context of dynamic range to describe music that has been so heavily compressed/clipped as to look like a brick wall when the waveform is viewed in an audio editor. I did not confuse it with the term brick wall filtering.

Maybe you need to get off your high horse and quite trying to create arguments where there are none.

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post #15 of 24 Old 11-12-2012, 11:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mad Chemist View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

Yup, another missive from someone who believes that scientific truth is determined by popularity surveys.

Nice assumption. I in now way stated my opinion on 24bit 96kHz vs 16bit 44.1kHz. I was making an empirical statement that the mere presence of high res audio indicates that more than a few people find it to sound better. I never added myself to that group.

You missed the point. The point is that you had your choice of ideas to report, and the idea that you chose to report amounted to being a popularity contest.

Do you have any idea about how to properly determine whether or not something actually makes an audible difference?
Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

Operative word being "may". Letsee, you can go to the casino and play the slots, or you can take audio advice from people who seem to believe that scientific truth is determined by popularity surveys.

What the hell are you arguing about here? Find the best mastered version. If its high res, buy that. CD buy that version. Simple as that.

The fact that you missed my first point means that you couldn't possibly get my second point which was based on my first.

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

This statement shows that the poster is unaware of the difference between bandpass and dynamic range. For future reference, they are orthogonal - IOW they exist completely independently of each other.

You are just reaching today.

No reach at all. Just using the commonly accepted meanings of words.
Quote:
Brick walled is commonly used in the context of dynamic range to describe music that has been so heavily compressed/clipped as to look like a brick wall when the waveform is viewed in an audio editor.

I take it that youve never actuallly seen what clipped music looks like when the waveform is viewed in an audio editor?

Like a brick wall? Surely you jest!

You do seem to know the proper terminology, which is clipped. If you knew the proper terminology, why didn't you use it?
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post #16 of 24 Old 11-12-2012, 11:52 AM
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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

You missed the point. The point is that you had your choice of ideas to report, and the idea that you chose to report amounted to being a popularity contest.
Do you have any idea about how to properly determine whether or not something actually makes an audible difference?

I'm sure I know how you do.
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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

No reach at all. Just using the commonly accepted meanings of words.
I take it that youve never actuallly seen what clipped music looks like when the waveform is viewed in an audio editor?
Like a brick wall? Surely you jest!
You do seem to know the proper terminology, which is clipped. If you knew the proper terminology, why didn't you use it?

Perhaps I hang around music mastering forums more than you but it is commonly used, derogatory slang for when music has been overly brick wall limited/clipped for the sake of the loudness war. And yes, brick wall limiting is a correct term so when something has had brick wall filtering applied, it has been brick walled. Visually, the waveform looks like a brick wall and sounds about as bad. But I'm sure you know this and are just having fun being difficult. If not, I suggest some kava tea tongue.gif


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post #17 of 24 Old 11-12-2012, 01:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Hamilcar Barca View Post

The HDMI interface can carry 1980x1020x60p video and 7.1-channel, 24/96, DTS HD Master Audio at the same time. Two channel, 24-bit, 96kHz audio is much easier. The question is how Media Monkey works. I'm a foobar200 user, so I can't answer that.
I apologize for nitpicking in advance smile.gif. But the load is not that much lower in this scenario. The reason is that you must always have video for HDMI to work even if you are just playing stereo music! Audio uses the video clock and its data is stored in the aux. channel of HDMI (i.e. in the invisible pixel area). Since video occupies the bulk of the bandwidth, then playing stereo files is not all that different than playing video. That said, the "load" by itself doesn't mean anything with respect to fidelity. The existence of video and processing of the same, might.
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Will 24/96 audio sound any different from, much less better than, 16/44.1? Almost certainly not.
Isn't "almost certainly" an oxymoron? I know, another nitpick smile.gif.
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Are HDTracks' files created from the same masters as the CD's? If they aren't, it's quite possible there's an audible difference.
The high-res tracks are sourced from digitizing analog master tapes, rips of SACD/DVD-A and digital masters (usually prior to resampling for CD). Bruce Brown in our neck of the woods does the work for much of their content. You can search for his posts online to read more about origins of these files.

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post #18 of 24 Old 11-12-2012, 02:10 PM
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Originally Posted by PooperScooper View Post

You can rip DVD-A discs on a computer just like CDs. All you need is a DVD reader on your computer which is pretty much standard these days.
larry

This will copy the "lossy" portion but not the HD/HR DVD-A portion. For copying the HD portion something like DVD Audio Extractor is needed.
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post #19 of 24 Old 11-14-2012, 06:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Theresa View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by PooperScooper View Post

You can rip DVD-A discs on a computer just like CDs. All you need is a DVD reader on your computer which is pretty much standard these days.
larry

This will copy the "lossy" portion but not the HD/HR DVD-A portion. For copying the HD portion something like DVD Audio Extractor is needed.
Yes, I neglected to mention the software because there's various programs (free and not free) to do it. I was just making sure you knew. DVD Audio Extractor is money well spent.

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post #20 of 24 Old 11-14-2012, 01:10 PM
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Its also possible to play the HD tracks of a DVD-A with foobar2000.
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post #21 of 24 Old 11-17-2012, 11:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by benclement11 View Post

If I download this and use Media Monkey as my player, will I be able to play the 96khz/24bit files by connecting my computer to the AVR using an HDMI cable? If so, is it worth it to pay the $18 or will it sound just as good to buy the actual cd for $10?

If you want to play the 24/96 high res files on your computer, in addition to the right media player, you will need a sound card that supports 24bit 96kHz sound files as a D/A converter. I have downloaded some albums from HDtracks and I love them. But I do not play them on the computer. I burn the files on a DVD in the DVD-A format and play them using my universal player, which supports DVD-A as well. Probably the D/A converter in my computer's soundcard is not as good as the one in my universal player that is why I notice quite a difference when the files are played off the burned DVD-A. And regardless what science as per today says, there IS a difference and it is not JUST psychological (albeit there is no proof yet).
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post #22 of 24 Old 11-17-2012, 01:12 PM
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I found some interesting q&a regarding the gaucho files here: whatsbestforum http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?2279-HD-Tracks
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post #23 of 24 Old 11-17-2012, 01:35 PM
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Hi Warp,
Quote:
Originally Posted by warp2600 View Post

If you want to play the 24/96 high res files on your computer, in addition to the right media player, you will need a sound card that supports 24bit 96kHz sound files as a D/A converter.
In Benclement11's situation, the DAC in his PC will not be in the loop, as he is sending the audio in digital form down HDMI. The DAC in the AVR is what will be doing the analog conversion.
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post #24 of 24 Old 11-17-2012, 01:55 PM
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Originally Posted by MarkHotchkiss View Post

Hi Warp,
In Benclement11's situation, the DAC in his PC will not be in the loop, as he is sending the audio in digital form down HDMI. The DAC in the AVR is what will be doing the analog conversion.

You're right. My mistake. I had MY computer setup mislead me on that.
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