is this guy right on his hi fi for beginner views? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 19 Old 01-15-2013, 12:26 PM - Thread Starter
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-i4zLOW3DtQ
He is trying to say that the built in phono pre amps are not as good as a seperate phono pre amp, but I heard that some receivers and integrated amps have pretty good phono pre amps. he talks about the phono pre amp at 5 minutes in the video. do you thinki that he did a good job at explaining hi fi or could have done better? do any of you own his components? if so do you like them?
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post #2 of 19 Old 01-15-2013, 12:57 PM
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Originally Posted by keyboardcat View Post

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-i4zLOW3DtQ

He is trying to say that the built in phono pre amps are not as good as a separate phono pre amp, but I heard that some receivers and integrated amps have pretty good phono pre amps.

The guy seems obsessed wth vinyl which is like failing a basic audio IQ tests. Vinyl is a legacy format but very useful for transcription to digital of recordings that were never produced to normal standards for digital.

He has a MC cartridge, the superiority of which is yet another audiophile myth.

The basic SQ of vinyl is inherently limited by the materials and format, so there is no benefit to exotic technology there. Farily inexpensive circuits get you deep into diminishing returns, and these are often found in older integrated amps, older or high end AVRs, and stand-alone preamps.
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He talks about the phono pre amp at 5 minutes in the video.

FWIW I usually use a Conrad Johnson Preamp for transcribing LPs, but that has a lot to do with the fact that I already owned it before I started doing transcriptions.
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Do you think that he did a good job at explaining hi fi or could have done better? do any of you own his components? if so do you like them?

I have a Rega TT and it works very well. Not the same model as his.

His comments about floor standing speakers are very superficial.

His comments about exotic speaker stands are daft.

I see no unusual depth or perception in his comments.
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post #3 of 19 Old 01-15-2013, 05:36 PM
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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

His comments about floor standing speakers are very superficial.

In the case of floorstanding and bookshelf speakers, I've read that the later can outperform the towers in the area of imaging, due to less cabinet coloration. Not to mention better bass extension due to the sub. But some audiophiles go on and on about the dedicated midrange driver present in 3-way floorstanders...
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post #4 of 19 Old 01-16-2013, 09:50 AM
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On the other hand, a 3-way speaker requires two crossover networks, and these cause phase distortion. Very expensive speakers use high-quality precision capacitors and inductors in the crossover, which can help, but even then ANY crossover network is inherently undesirable.

One of the main reasons many people prefer two-way designs is that only one crossover is needed (but of course some tower speakers are two-way also).

The perfect solution to this problem is to obtain or design drivers that just cover a certain frequency range and then roll off at the right frequency without needing a crossover network.

This is expensive and challenging to do, but it IS the ideal solution.

Anthony Gallo Acoustics does this for most of their speaker designs, and the result is excellent sound quality.

My Gallo CL-3 speakers are the best I have heard for under $5000, and just use two bass/midrange drivers and a special hemispherical tweeter with NO crossover network. The inherent frequency response of the speakers crosses them over at 4000 Hz. For more information see the review article from The Absolute Sound magazine.

The phono preamps that are "built-in" to turntables or integrated amplifiers are not usually designed with the best-quality RIAA equaiization networks, and may not sound as good as a dedicated phono preamp, but there can be exceptions to the rule.

One that is VERY VERY good and not too expensive is the Musical Fidelity V-LPS.
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post #5 of 19 Old 01-16-2013, 10:55 AM
 
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Originally Posted by commsysman View Post

On the other hand, a 3-way speaker requires two crossover networks, and these cause phase distortion. Very expensive speakers use high-quality precision capacitors and inductors in the crossover, which can help, but even then ANY crossover network is inherently undesirable.

One of the main reasons many people prefer two-way designs is that only one crossover is needed (but of course some tower speakers are two-way also).

The perfect solution to this problem is to obtain or design drivers that just cover a certain frequency range and then roll off at the right frequency without needing a crossover network.

This is expensive and challenging to do, but it IS the ideal solution.
No. The perfect solution to such problem is active crossover. Look it up on Google if you aren't familiar with passive speaker crossover.
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post #6 of 19 Old 01-17-2013, 06:20 AM
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Originally Posted by diomania View Post

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Originally Posted by commsysman View Post

On the other hand, a 3-way speaker requires two crossover networks, and these cause phase distortion. Very expensive speakers use high-quality precision capacitors and inductors in the crossover, which can help, but even then ANY crossover network is inherently undesirable.

One of the main reasons many people prefer two-way designs is that only one crossover is needed (but of course some tower speakers are two-way also).

The perfect solution to this problem is to obtain or design drivers that just cover a certain frequency range and then roll off at the right frequency without needing a crossover network.

This is expensive and challenging to do, but it IS the ideal solution.

No. The perfect solution to such problem is active crossover. Look it up on Google if you aren't familiar with passive speaker crossover.

Really good 3-way systems have been built for ages with passive crossovers. But going active provides effective design solutions that passive crossovers never could.

The idea that people generally prefer 2 way speaker systems appears to be an unfounded assertion. A personal opinion presented as a global fact.

Everybody with 2-way front speakers and a subwoofer is running what amounts to be a 3-way system. They have the allegedly dreaded two crossover networks.
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post #7 of 19 Old 01-21-2013, 12:52 PM - Thread Starter
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great input everyone. anyone else want to chime in?
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post #8 of 19 Old 01-21-2013, 06:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by commsysman 

The perfect solution to this problem is to obtain or design drivers that just cover a certain frequency range and then roll off at the right frequency without needing a crossover network.

This is expensive and challenging to do, but it IS the ideal solution..
Hardly the ideal solution. Trade one form of questionably audible distortion for several other clearly audible forms? Certainly your prerogative to choose as such but don't try to pass off your superficial and superstition filled understanding of speaker design as audio fact.

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post #9 of 19 Old 01-21-2013, 06:10 PM
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And btw, a narrow band speaker with x order roll off at frequency y will have the exact same phase response as a wideband speaker combined with a crossover causing x order roll off at frequency y. Didn't they teach that in electrical supergenious school?

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post #10 of 19 Old 01-21-2013, 09:36 PM - Thread Starter
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Bigus he was just trying to help. Please dont question his education. We all have different views and theories. He has made several good points on here in the past and helped a lot of people with questions. Please no fighting people. You all make good points.
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post #11 of 19 Old 01-22-2013, 06:11 AM
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Originally Posted by keyboardcat View Post

Bigus he was just trying to help. Please dont question his education.

Politeness aside, the questions are relevant and Bigus' points are right on.

Historically, audio engineers have tried to build multi-driver speaker systems without electrical crossovers or with minimized electrical crossovers. The usual goal is economic, that is to save the cost of the electrical components. However, an irrational fear of electrical networks has spurred some of these efforts. Needless to say products have come to market and in the end there was no special joy. The fear of electrical networks was in fact irrational and there were no special performance benefits.

Every speaker driver has a low frequency and a high frequency bandpass limit or roll-off. The roll off at the bottom end is particularly controllable and has the most ideal characteristics of the two. However, here's the problem. The acoustical driver low end roll-off is accompanied by a dramatic increase in nonlinear distortion. This compares with the electrical equivalent which can be made nearly perfectly free of nonlinear distortion. The acoustical roll off is constant and stays with the driver from the day it is designed until it goes to the scrap heap. The electrical crossover can be altered as desired at any time with minimal inconvenience or cost.
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We all have different views and theories.

Yes, but all views and theories are not the same. Some are based on a correct understanding of technology and others are based on fears, rumors and audiophile myths.
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He has made several good points on here in the past and helped a lot of people with questions. Please no fighting people. You all make good points.

Not true. Telling people that left is right and that water naturally flows up hill is not very helpful, even if it pleases certain people.
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post #12 of 19 Old 01-22-2013, 08:00 AM
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Originally Posted by keyboardcat View Post

Bigus he was just trying to help. Please dont question his education. We all have different views and theories. He has made several good points on here in the past and helped a lot of people with questions. Please no fighting people. You all make good points.
Sorry if I offended you. He may well provide help and may well be correct in some of his statements, but I can't ignore either his attitude in numerous threads and posts in the recent past or the fact that he is one of the worst offenders in spreading misunderstanding and misinformation that I have seen. IMO, he gives at least as much bad advice as good, this thread being no exception.

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post #13 of 19 Old 01-22-2013, 08:15 AM
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I suggest you read the article on the Gallo CL-3 speakers and the comments on this "no-crossover" issue from the July/August 2012 issue of The Absolute Sound. It is available online.

If you don't realize, after reading the article; how completely mistaken you are, then I guess there is a basic problem there and we will have to let it go at that.

The simple FACT is that the Gallo CL-3 speakers are some of the best-sounding I have ever heard for under $5000, and they have no crossover network. Suggesting that this design concept is flawed is to display considerable ignorance on the subject. The referenced article makes that quite clear.

The implementation is unquestionably effective in this case, and Anthony Gallo has also designed several outstanding speakers based on this design concept over the years (as have other leading speaker designers).

If someone around here has a poor understanding of speaker design, it isn't me.

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Originally Posted by Bigus View Post

Hardly the ideal solution. Trade one form of questionably audible distortion for several other clearly audible forms? Certainly your prerogative to choose as such but don't try to pass off your superficial and superstition filled understanding of speaker design as audio fact.
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post #14 of 19 Old 01-22-2013, 08:25 AM
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Originally Posted by commsysman View Post

I suggest you read the article on the Gallo CL-3 speakers and the comments on this "no-crossover" issue from the July/August 2012 issue of The Absolute Sound. It is available online.

Not wanting to send people on a snipe hunt so they can follow the discussion:

http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/anthony-gallo-acoustics-classico-cl-3-loudspeaker-tas-224/ right?

Just a little background on good rhetoric and reason: An exception does not break a good rule.

This particular exception obviously relies on the inherent high-pass characteristic of the non-mainstream tweeter:

"Significantly, the CDT tweeter naturally acts as a roughly 6dB/octave high-pass filter that rolls in at about 3kHz, so that the tweeter is able to serve as its own crossover."

The technical world is far from being settled on the idea that 6 dB/octave is the ideal crossover for every application.
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If you don't realize, after reading the article; how completely mistaken you are, then I guess there is a basic problem there and we will have to let it go at that.

If you think that this article which is completely free of any actual reliable technical evaluation of the speaker's performance proves anything at all...

...then you need to point it out because it sure isn't very obvious or even noticable. ;-)
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post #15 of 19 Old 01-22-2013, 08:33 AM
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Snipe hunt...lol???

Anyone who uses Google or any other search engine and keys in "Gallo CL-3 speakers" will immediately see the article listed plainly.

I don't think that is difficult or time-consuming for anyone.

As I said originally, the main reason more speakers are not designed without crossovers is because it DOES require considerable extra effort on the part of the engineer to obtain drivers that have the desired inherent rolloff characteristics. These drivers are obviously going to be "non-mainstream" units; and that may just be a good thing if they are of high quality (which is certainly the case in the CL-3).

IMO that is certainly a good thing in the case of the tweeter used in the CL-3. It has dispersion characteristics which are unique and very desirable in many situations (plus having exceptional performance).

The fact that most designers take the cheap and easy route, using off-the-shelf drivers and wide-tolerance crossover components, is hardly a reason to criticize a design concept that clearly delivers excellent sound quality. Gallo's speakers have used this concept for years and have been repeatedly praised over the years for their excellent sound quality.
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post #16 of 19 Old 01-22-2013, 11:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by commsysman 

The fact that most designers take the cheap and easy route, using off-the-shelf drivers and wide-tolerance crossover components, is hardly a reason to criticize a design concept that clearly delivers excellent sound quality. Gallo's speakers have used this concept for years and have been repeatedly praised over the years for their excellent sound quality.
No one said a speaker can't sound excellent despite the absence of electrical crossover. The only person stating sweeping generalized opinion as fact is you. Any crossover is inherently undesirable... perfect solution... ideal solution IS...

Speaker design involves numerous tradeoffs and design decisions dictated by the performance goals set. Foregoing a crossover network certainly isn't without its difficulties, which you admit, and its inescapable tradeoffs, which you ignore. If my design goals or preferences are not the same as yours, it is quite unlikely I will find this anything close to an ideal solution. In fact, I may find it among the worst of possible designs, despite it sounding excellent for other uses.

Bottom line, you state your opinion. as fact, and a supporting opinion from TAS as fact, while both are devoid of any supportive fact at all. No measurements, no discussion of design tradoffs, no discussion of which designs best suit which uses. Just an opinion with some capital letters for emphasis.

Well, I DON'T agree, and I don't think you know much at all about speaker design.

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post #17 of 19 Old 01-22-2013, 12:39 PM
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Originally Posted by commsysman View Post

Snipe hunt...lol???

Anyone who uses Google or any other search engine and keys in "Gallo CL-3 speakers" will immediately see the article listed plainly.

I don't think that is difficult or time-consuming for anyone.

However since you couldn't do it yourself, must we imply that it was too difficult and time-consuming for you to do it for the benefit of your own post?
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As I said originally, the main reason more speakers are not designed without crossovers is because it DOES require considerable extra effort on the part of the engineer to obtain drivers that have the desired inherent rolloff characteristics. These drivers are obviously going to be "non-mainstream" units; and that may just be a good thing if they are of high quality (which is certainly the case in the CL-3).

I see no reliable evidence suggsting that the CL-3 speakers are of unusually high quality. I see only the usual self-serving claims that are common from manufacturers and high end reviewers.
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IMO that is certainly a good thing in the case of the tweeter used in the CL-3. It has dispersion characteristics which are unique and very desirable in many situations (plus having exceptional performance).

Again, the lack of reliable technical evidence is not exactly heart warming.
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The fact that most designers take the cheap and easy route, using off-the-shelf drivers and wide-tolerance crossover components, is hardly a reason to criticize a design concept that clearly delivers excellent sound quality.

The tweeters in the CL-3 appear to me to mimic the HPM plastic film speakers that were used in the late 1970s.

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post #18 of 19 Old 01-22-2013, 01:52 PM
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on the original question about going with a separate Phono Preamp instead of an integrated... Compare my phono section in my Onkyo Pro to my PS Audio, the PS Audio is quieter then the integrated. Also, easier to set up a cartridge MM to MC.
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post #19 of 19 Old 01-22-2013, 03:32 PM - Thread Starter
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maybe you are all right depending on what you want to do with the crossover networks.
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