Need a decent AVR/AMP for Bowers and Wilkins CM5 Bookshelf Speakers. - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 40 Old 01-22-2013, 01:42 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
HeyAlbert's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 33
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I have spent the last 2 hours reading different threads about which amp to buy with bower and wilkins speakers... many have been about the 600 series but few about the CM series.

I just blew all my money on the Bowers and Wilkins CM5 after hearing them at best buy and getting a nice discount from a friend who works there. Now I am looking for either a receiver or amp to power them.

I just need something cheap thats of decent quality to drive them for a few months until I can drop more money on something better. My budget is $200-$350USD (yes, that is really all I have... I am a really broke college student in love with audio gear)

My question is, can I get away with using my dads receiver (Yamaha A810) or is there any amps that I can get for around $200-$350 that can last me for a few months until I have more money? This will be mainly for 2 channel audio for music. I appreciate any input!

I didn't want to post this as I feel these threads are getting repetitive, but I really need help and I feel like I did my research. Thanks.


EDIT: Looking to spend a bit more on my amp/preamp/integrated...
HeyAlbert is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 40 Old 01-22-2013, 02:11 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Bond 007's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Cincinnati, OH
Posts: 12,032
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 222 Post(s)
Liked: 838
The A810 is an excellent receiver and will work very well with the CM5s. Or you can get one of these and keep it for a while:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16882115373

No, Mr. Bond. I expect you to die!
Bond 007 is offline  
post #3 of 40 Old 01-22-2013, 02:37 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
HeyAlbert's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 33
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bond 007 View Post

The A810 is an excellent receiver and will work very well with the CM5s. Or you can get one of these and keep it for a while:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16882115373

That is good to know. I work at Fry's Electronics and we currently have that Yamaha you posted for $188 + tax if anyone else is interested. How do you feel about the HK 3490 Receiver vs the yamaha a810?
HeyAlbert is offline  
post #4 of 40 Old 01-22-2013, 02:54 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Bond 007's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Cincinnati, OH
Posts: 12,032
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 222 Post(s)
Liked: 838
Good deal on that 373. You would know better than I about the comparison. I can't afford either so I've never really looked at them that carefully.

No, Mr. Bond. I expect you to die!
Bond 007 is offline  
post #5 of 40 Old 01-22-2013, 03:44 AM
AVS Special Member
 
glangford's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 1,768
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 15 Post(s)
Liked: 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by HeyAlbert View Post

That is good to know. I work at Fry's Electronics and we currently have that Yamaha you posted for $188 + tax if anyone else is interested. How do you feel about the HK 3490 Receiver vs the yamaha a810?


The HK 3490 is surely a more powerful reciever. A good choice you could live with for a while. I'd tend to go the AVR route as I'm a fan of automatic room correction. But if you're careful with speaker placement and room treatments the HK would be good as well.
glangford is offline  
post #6 of 40 Old 01-22-2013, 05:30 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
arnyk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Grosse Pointe Woods, MI
Posts: 14,225
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 651 Post(s)
Liked: 1133
Quote:
Originally Posted by glangford View Post


The HK 3490 is surely a more powerful receiver. A good choice you could live with for a while. I'd tend to go the AVR route as I'm a fan of automatic room correction. But if you're careful with speaker placement and room treatments the HK would be good as well.

Yamaha 373:

Rated Output Power (8 ohms, 1 kHz, 0.9 % THD, 1 ch driven): 100 W/ch

Rated Output Power (8 ohms, 1 kHz, 0.9 % THD, 2 ch driven): 85 W/ch

Dynamic Power/Ch (Front L/R, 8/6/4/2 ohms) 110/130/160/180 W

HK 3490

Power @ 8 Ohms, <0.07% THD120 x 2

Power @ 4 Ohms, <0.2% THD150 x 2

The facts bear you out - the 3490 is the more powerful receiver into 8 and 4 ohm loads. It seems to lack a specification for 2 ohms.

The 3490 is also one of the AVRs from HK's era of "high current" receivers which I would consider to be clear backing for the difference in specs.

Since the two are not specified in ways that can be compared closely, I would estimate that the 373 is an 80 wpc @ 0.07% THD device. So the 373 puts out about 40 watts less, 120 versus 80 watts trying to estimate an apples-to-apples comparison. The difference amounts to being less than 2 dB which in a side-by-side comparison would be just about audible under ideal conditions.
arnyk is offline  
post #7 of 40 Old 01-22-2013, 06:24 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Bond 007's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Cincinnati, OH
Posts: 12,032
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 222 Post(s)
Liked: 838
No one is comparing the 373. Read the thread.

No, Mr. Bond. I expect you to die!
Bond 007 is offline  
post #8 of 40 Old 01-22-2013, 06:46 AM
AVS Special Member
 
commsysman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Southern California
Posts: 5,247
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 109 Post(s)
Liked: 250
You can get the Onkyo TX-NR515 for only $300 at Amazon.

That is a very good receiver for that price.

Actually, if you just want a 2-channel amplifier, I have an excellent one listed for only $225 in the classifieds; a NAD C325BEE.

It cost $500 new a few years ago and I guarantee it to be absolutely like new.
commsysman is offline  
post #9 of 40 Old 01-22-2013, 07:12 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
arnyk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Grosse Pointe Woods, MI
Posts: 14,225
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 651 Post(s)
Liked: 1133
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bond 007 View Post

No one is comparing the 373. Read the thread.

AFAIK, the last two AVRs mentioned in the thread are the 373 and the 3490.

If you wanted to be a little helpful and positive for a change, you could at least clarify what you think the more relevant comparison is.

Since coming up with specs is within just about anybody's span of technology you should include that as well.

But only if you want to be relevant and helpful... ;-)
arnyk is offline  
post #10 of 40 Old 01-22-2013, 09:43 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
HeyAlbert's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 33
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Thank you everyone who has posted, all the information was very helpful and left me with something to ponder about. Commsyman I will PM you about the NAD amp. If any one has anymore recommendations please don't hesitate to add to the thread.
HeyAlbert is offline  
post #11 of 40 Old 01-22-2013, 09:49 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
HeyAlbert's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 33
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Just for anyone who is curious... this is what I am trying to replace. This is my current setup KLIPSCH RF62 towers and a PSW10 sub

HeyAlbert is offline  
post #12 of 40 Old 01-22-2013, 09:54 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
HeyAlbert's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 33
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Yamaha A810 or HK 3490? Which would be the better amp to drive my CM5's?
HeyAlbert is offline  
post #13 of 40 Old 01-22-2013, 10:09 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Knucklehead90's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: State of Confusion - 98823
Posts: 7,354
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 25 Post(s)
Liked: 101
The Yamaha would be my pick if I had a sub to run in that 2 channel setup. The HK has no bass management - the Yamaha has YPAO room correction that will equalize the sub (I think!) and speakers. The differences in power for 2 channel aren't meaningful - as Arny outlined above. IMO room correction is no less important in 2 channel than it is for multi-channel.

When all else fails - RTFM!

♫♫♫ Two Channel Rules! ♫♫♫

GO SEAHAWKS!!!
Knucklehead90 is online now  
post #14 of 40 Old 01-22-2013, 10:27 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Bond 007's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Cincinnati, OH
Posts: 12,032
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 222 Post(s)
Liked: 838
Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

AFAIK, the last two AVRs mentioned in the thread are the 373 and the 3490.

If you wanted to be a little helpful and positive for a change, you could at least clarify what you think the more relevant comparison is.

Since coming up with specs is within just about anybody's span of technology you should include that as well.

But only if you want to be relevant and helpful... ;-)
Your post was both irrelevant and unhelpful. You went through the trouble to come back with a post to try to make me look bad but obviously still didn't bother to read such a short thread to see why your post was irrelevant. I shouldn't have to retype someone elses post that is directly above yours to clarify the comparison.

No, Mr. Bond. I expect you to die!
Bond 007 is offline  
post #15 of 40 Old 01-22-2013, 12:48 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
arnyk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Grosse Pointe Woods, MI
Posts: 14,225
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 651 Post(s)
Liked: 1133
Quote:
Originally Posted by HeyAlbert View Post

Yamaha A810 or HK 3490? Which would be the better amp to drive my CM5's?

Of the 2 I'd pick the A810 especially since you said in the OP that you have one available to you.

The CM5 is a fairly small 2-way speaker with a 6 1/2 woofer 8 ohm nominal impedance and approximately 88 dB/W sensitivity (about average). This should be a good match for the power amps in the A810.

The A810 will be advantageous if you want to upgrade your system because if its very good bass management - the next logical upgrade would be a subwoofer.
HeyAlbert likes this.
arnyk is offline  
post #16 of 40 Old 01-22-2013, 07:38 PM
AVS Special Member
 
postrokfan's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Ft. Collins, CO
Posts: 2,467
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 31 Post(s)
Liked: 316
Quote:
Originally Posted by Knucklehead90 View Post

The Yamaha would be my pick if I had a sub to run in that 2 channel setup. The HK has no bass management - the Yamaha has YPAO room correction that will equalize the sub (I think!) and speakers. The differences in power for 2 channel aren't meaningful - as Arny outlined above. IMO room correction is no less important in 2 channel than it is for multi-channel.

+1 You also get networking and some other goodies.

"Guns for show, knives for a pro..."
postrokfan is offline  
post #17 of 40 Old 01-22-2013, 09:16 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
HeyAlbert's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 33
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by postrokfan View Post

+1 You also get networking and some other goodies.

Decided to try out commys NAD C325BEE amp.. I don't really need all of the features an AVR offers besides HDMI in/out.. but I guess I will find a way to make it for now until I can afford something nicer... I hardly use my TV anyways. Thanks for all the suggestions! Anyone have a recommendation of a good budget preamp? I saw a marantz av 8003 on my local craigslist for $500... seems like a good deal. Should I hop on that? Or is there any others?
HeyAlbert is offline  
post #18 of 40 Old 01-23-2013, 02:11 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Knucklehead90's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: State of Confusion - 98823
Posts: 7,354
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 25 Post(s)
Liked: 101
That NAD is an integrated amp - meaning it has preamp and amp contained in a single box with the ability to switch sources. Why would you need a preamp?

When all else fails - RTFM!

♫♫♫ Two Channel Rules! ♫♫♫

GO SEAHAWKS!!!
Knucklehead90 is online now  
post #19 of 40 Old 01-23-2013, 02:21 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
HeyAlbert's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 33
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Well i was thinking i would need a preamp with hdmi since i do want to use my setup eith movies on occasion. My setup is 80/20 music/movies.
HeyAlbert is offline  
post #20 of 40 Old 01-23-2013, 09:06 PM
Senior Member
 
ScaryFatKidGT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 322
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
http://www.amazon.com/Pioneer-VSX-1022-K-7-Channel-Receiver-Network/dp/B007O5ATC8/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1359003435&sr=8-1&keywords=pioneer+vsx-1022-k

Why get a $250 receiver when you can get a $450 one for $250.

Id say the Marantz 5004 or 6004 but you wanna watch TV with is so yeah.
ScaryFatKidGT is offline  
post #21 of 40 Old 02-06-2013, 12:44 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
HeyAlbert's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 33
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Anyone else have any other recommendations for an amp/preamp/integrated combo? Maybe something in the $300-$1000 range? I am not interested in getting an AVR, as I will only be using 2 channel audio for my turntable.
HeyAlbert is offline  
post #22 of 40 Old 02-06-2013, 07:41 PM
AVS Special Member
 
postrokfan's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Ft. Collins, CO
Posts: 2,467
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 31 Post(s)
Liked: 316
That's a pretty big range. So you're set on not getting an AVR? An AVR will do what you need to do for cheaper and all you have to do is add a phono preamp from phonopreamps.com for $43. I've listed some other 2-channel (2.1 or 2.0) options below.

HK 3490 $449 or wait for sale (as already mentioned before, it has a built-in phono connection)
Outlaw RR2150, $699 has bass management, USB DAC, and phono input
Parasound Zpre2, refurb $299 (preamp) + refurb Parasound Zamp v.3 $262 (amp, 45W 8 ohms, 60W 4 ohms) + refurb Parasound Zphono $149 (phono preamp)
Marantz PM5004, $449 or refurb for $370 at accessories4less.com
NAD C-316BEE, $380 + $40 for phono preamp
HeyAlbert likes this.

"Guns for show, knives for a pro..."
postrokfan is offline  
post #23 of 40 Old 02-06-2013, 09:21 PM
Member
 
destroysall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Phoenix, Arizona
Posts: 40
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
I'd go with a vintage receiver. Check Craigslist or eBay. The Marantz 2200 series are phenomenal receivers. Check them out.
kristopherson likes this.

destroysall is offline  
post #24 of 40 Old 02-06-2013, 09:33 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
HeyAlbert's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 33
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Thanks for the recommendations guys. I may look into the outlaw. I like the way marantz units look, but ive read that they don't sound the best with my cm5s. People on the forums convinced me to look into rotel but im having a hard time finding used units, i know places that sell them new but i would rather find a better used unit. I could always go NAD too..

I was just wondering if there are some other different options people prefer. I would rather have seperates but i guess i can live with an integrated if its not a real decrease in quality.

I also need a phono amp, unless i can find a nice unit which has a phono.

I plan on picking up a rega rp1.

Once again thanks again for all the recommendations.
HeyAlbert is offline  
post #25 of 40 Old 02-06-2013, 09:47 PM
AVS Special Member
 
postrokfan's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Ft. Collins, CO
Posts: 2,467
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 31 Post(s)
Liked: 316
Quote:
I like the way marantz units look, but ive read that they don't sound the best with my cm5s.

Not really sure where you read that. I think Marantz and B&W go well together. I'm currently using a Marantz 1602 AVR with some CM5s in a smaller room and IMHO it sounds fantastic. BTW, the 1602 can be had for $300 where still available. Also, many of the integrateds I mentioned have built-in phono connections.
HeyAlbert likes this.

"Guns for show, knives for a pro..."
postrokfan is offline  
post #26 of 40 Old 02-06-2013, 10:29 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
HeyAlbert's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 33
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by postrokfan View Post

Not really sure where you read that. I think Marantz and B&W go well together. I'm currently using a Marantz 1602 AVR with some CM5s in a smaller room and IMHO it sounds fantastic. BTW, the 1602 can be had for $300 where still available. Also, many of the integrateds I mentioned have built-in phono connections.

I've read many threads of people recommending rotel over marantz. I really like the PM6004, and it fits my budget. How do you feel about the PM6004?
HeyAlbert is offline  
post #27 of 40 Old 02-07-2013, 05:00 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
arnyk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Grosse Pointe Woods, MI
Posts: 14,225
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 651 Post(s)
Liked: 1133
Quote:
Originally Posted by HeyAlbert View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by postrokfan View Post

Not really sure where you read that. I think Marantz and B&W go well together. I'm currently using a Marantz 1602 AVR with some CM5s in a smaller room and IMHO it sounds fantastic. BTW, the 1602 can be had for $300 where still available. Also, many of the integrateds I mentioned have built-in phono connections.

I've read many threads of people recommending rotel over marantz. I really like the PM6004, and it fits my budget. How do you feel about the PM6004?

The B&W CM5 is IMO a 4 ohm speaker.

Here are impedance curves (ported and sealed) from a reliable source (Stereophile's speaker tech tests)

http://www.stereophile.com/content/bowers-amp-wilkins-cm5-loudspeaker-measurements





Given the widespread misapprehensions about AVRs and 4 ohm speakers (which are audiophile myths) I can see why people say what they say, no matter how wrong they are.

You may not like what I say next. ;-)

Here is some very optimistic information about what your CM5 speakers can possibly do in the way of clean bass:

Freq,Hz Max SPL, DB

10 68
20 80
30 87
40 92
50 96
60 99
70 102
80 104
90 106
100 108
110 110
120 111
130 113
140 114
150 115
160 116
170 117

These speakers are in trouble as quality reproducers below 70 Hz, and need to be crossed over at 110 Hz if they are anchoring a high quality system.

I can't tell whether you ever want to go there. Maybe this is a bedroom, kitchen office, or workshop system and not the main system of your life. So depending on your goals, there may be a subwoofer in your future. If that is true, then the AVR solution is probably the best solution for you.
HeyAlbert and kristopherson like this.
arnyk is offline  
post #28 of 40 Old 02-07-2013, 03:12 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
HeyAlbert's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 33
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Thanks for the schooling arnyk. This is going to be my main setup in my bedroom as I live at home still with my parents. I am a college student trying to build an "audiophile" stereo setup. I picked up the CM5's because I got a great price on them with a bestbuy employee discount (I paid around $850 for them). What do you recommend in terms of a good AVR and subwoofer to go with these speakers? I want something that can eventually handle some higher end speakers. I have a budget at around $1000-1500 max for both the sub/avr. I will mainly be using this system for listening to hiphop/alternative/rock through a turntable (Rega RP3 I hope to pickup soon) and a macbook pro (I believe I would need a DAC, to get the best audio quality).

Thanks for the personalized help, I hope this thread will be useful to anyone else that is in my situation. I have spent hour reading through many recommendation threads but I am still left a little bit confused.
HeyAlbert is offline  
post #29 of 40 Old 02-07-2013, 10:30 PM
AVS Special Member
 
postrokfan's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Ft. Collins, CO
Posts: 2,467
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 31 Post(s)
Liked: 316
Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

The B&W CM5 is IMO a 4 ohm speaker.

Here are impedance curves (ported and sealed) from a reliable source (Stereophile's speaker tech tests)

http://www.stereophile.com/content/bowers-amp-wilkins-cm5-loudspeaker-measurements





Given the widespread misapprehensions about AVRs and 4 ohm speakers (which are audiophile myths) I can see why people say what they say, no matter how wrong they are.

You may not like what I say next. ;-)

Here is some very optimistic information about what your CM5 speakers can possibly do in the way of clean bass:

Freq,Hz Max SPL, DB

10 68
20 80
30 87
40 92
50 96
60 99
70 102
80 104
90 106
100 108
110 110
120 111
130 113
140 114
150 115
160 116
170 117

These speakers are in trouble as quality reproducers below 70 Hz, and need to be crossed over at 110 Hz if they are anchoring a high quality system.

I can't tell whether you ever want to go there. Maybe this is a bedroom, kitchen office, or workshop system and not the main system of your life. So depending on your goals, there may be a subwoofer in your future. If that is true, then the AVR solution is probably the best solution for you.

I have a pair in a smaller room and this information makes sense. A subwoofer is required but I use a crossover at 80 Hz. I usually listen at moderate volumes however.

"Guns for show, knives for a pro..."
postrokfan is offline  
post #30 of 40 Old 02-09-2013, 12:10 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
HeyAlbert's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 33
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Demo'd the Rotel RA-12 Integrated Amp at a high end audio store today. It powered some B&W 685's which sounded nice to me. I am thinking about going with this unit since it seems to have everything I need (DAC, Phono, Digital Inputs, USB..) Anyone think this would be a good match with my CM5s?
HeyAlbert is offline  
Reply 2 Channel Audio

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off