What should I do to improve my system? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 20 Old 01-25-2013, 12:40 PM - Thread Starter
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Currently this is what I have:

pair of Paradigm Studio 10 v5
powered by Kenwood VR-410 receiver (approx 12 years old? there's like no specs available but it's a solid receiver, about 27 lbs, I think 100 Wpc)
source is flac from computer via toslink into the kenwood receiver.
I have a few subwoofers but don't really use them for music

What is the next step to upgrading my system? What do you guys suggest, I just bought these speakers at christmas so I don't really want to upgrade those just yet smile.gif
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post #2 of 20 Old 01-25-2013, 12:49 PM
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What is the next step to upgrading my system?

The best upgrade is the one that addresses the weakest link, and the weakest link is almost always the acoustics of your listening room. This short article is mainly about home recording, but all the same principles apply to hi-fi and home theater too:

Acoustic Basics

--Ethan

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post #3 of 20 Old 01-25-2013, 01:59 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Ethan Winer View Post

The best upgrade is the one that addresses the weakest link, and the weakest link is almost always the acoustics of your listening room. This short article is mainly about home recording, but all the same principles apply to hi-fi and home theater too:

Acoustic Basics

--Ethan

What sort of treatment would you suggest for this room? Very rough drawing, ceiling is 8 ft high.

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post #4 of 20 Old 01-25-2013, 04:13 PM
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I'm not to crazy about the position of your speakers. Stuffed into the corners and 11ft apart seems a bit extreme. Try moving them about 2ft from the sides and a couple of feet from the rear wall. If you had Allison corner loaded speakers then I would have no trouble w/the position. But w/these speakers your probably getting a boost in bass and getting a less than detailed center stage. Before you spend any money on room treatments move your speakers around. A cheap tweak that's free.smile.gif
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post #5 of 20 Old 01-25-2013, 04:21 PM - Thread Starter
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I'm not to crazy about the position of your speakers. Stuffed into the corners and 11ft apart seems a bit extreme. Try moving them about 2ft from the sides and a couple of feet from the rear wall. If you had Allison corner loaded speakers then I would have no trouble w/the position. But w/these speakers your probably getting a boost in bass and getting a less than detailed center stage. Before you spend any money on room treatments move your speakers around. A cheap tweak that's free.smile.gif

I guess they're drawn closer to the wall than they actually are, there's plenty of space on all sides of them. They are about 7 ft apart from each other, and 9 feet from the listening position
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post #6 of 20 Old 01-26-2013, 12:30 PM
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What sort of treatment would you suggest for this room? Very rough drawing, ceiling is 8 ft high.

I see several problems. One is you're too far from the speakers. Another problem is you're sitting directly in front of a reflecting wall. Yet another is the desk in front of you, which also creates reflections. Why do you sit behind a desk while listening to music? Can you post two photos of the room? The best angles are one photo taken from your seat toward the front of the room, then go to the front wall and take another photo of the rear wall and your seat.

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post #7 of 20 Old 01-26-2013, 02:09 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Ethan Winer View Post

I see several problems. One is you're too far from the speakers. Another problem is you're sitting directly in front of a reflecting wall. Yet another is the desk in front of you, which also creates reflections. Why do you sit behind a desk while listening to music? Can you post two photos of the room? The best angles are one photo taken from your seat toward the front of the room, then go to the front wall and take another photo of the rear wall and your seat.

--Ethan

I use the computer when I listen to music, also it's my bedroom. I know it's not ideal to have a desk here for music. Where would ideal speaker placement be, the listening position can't change though.

I didn't draw it exactly where things were, just general. I am approximately 2 ft from the back wall where I sit, and the speakers are >1 ft away from the front wall and side walls. So I'm only about 8-9 ft away from the speakers.
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post #8 of 20 Old 01-27-2013, 11:48 AM
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Where would ideal speaker placement be, the listening position can't change though.

I'd full the speakers forward some, to make an equilateral triangle between them and your head. More here:

How to set up a room
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I am approximately 2 ft from the back wall where I sit

Absorbers (or diffusers) in the wall behind you will help a lot, by removing (or redirecting) those strong reflections:

Early Reflections

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post #9 of 20 Old 01-27-2013, 12:13 PM - Thread Starter
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Ok, I will get some absorbers. After that, what would the weakest link of my equipment be?
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post #10 of 20 Old 01-27-2013, 12:22 PM
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^^^ Guys, I'm sorry; usually I just take a quick read, shake my head, and move on (with threads like this). Truth is...to not do so, makes me a smaller man; but just this once I couldn't let it pass.

With all due respect to wagboss, who seems like...what admittedly, I assume...is a very nice, young-man; this room is a disaster, acoustics-wise. Not his fault...and not much he can do about it, obviously; as he said...it's a bedroom! He's got finite room, the desk; can't change the listening position...probably doesn't have much room left over, to fudge the speaker-placement much. And uh...oh yeah, a what'cha call it; a box-spring and mattress, that occupies more space in the room than anything! rolleyes.gif

Again, wagboss; this is nothing against you. It is what it is, and I'm sure you're limited in your options. But to me...and it's just my opinion; having you put absorbers and diffusers in this room; is like lipstick on a pig (and a waste of money to boot). Just enjoy it for what it is right now; dig your music...and maybe a Receiver, made in the 2000s wouldn't hurt wink.gif Good luck

Music is a moral law. It gives soul to the universe, wings to the mind, flight to the imagination, and charm and gaiety to life and to everything. -Plato
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post #11 of 20 Old 01-27-2013, 12:30 PM - Thread Starter
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^^^ Guys, I'm sorry; usually I just take a quick read, shake my head, and move on (with threads like this). Truth is...to not do so, makes me a smaller man; but just this once I couldn't let it pass.

With all due respect to wagboss, who seems like...what admittedly, I assume...is a very nice, young-man; this room is a disaster, acoustics-wise. Not his fault...and not much he can do about it, obviously; as he said...it's a bedroom! He's got finite room, the desk; can't change the listening position...probably doesn't have much room left over, to fudge the speaker-placement much. And uh...oh yeah, a what'cha call it; a box-spring and mattress, that occupies more space in the room than anything! rolleyes.gif

Again, wagboss; this is nothing against you. It is what it is, and I'm sure you're limited in your options. But to me...and it's just my opinion; having you put absorbers and diffusers in this room; is like lipstick on a pig (and a waste of money to boot). Just enjoy it for what it is right now; dig your music...and maybe a Receiver, made in the 2000s wouldn't hurt wink.gif Good luck

lol, I'm just gonna do some DIY ones so they're like 20 bucks for 2'x4', and it's not like when I move in a year or two I can't bring the panels with me to a better room smile.gif
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post #12 of 20 Old 01-27-2013, 07:25 PM
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Ok, I will get some absorbers. After that, what would the weakest link of my equipment be?

Given the substantial investment in speakers, a good subwoofer and a modern AVR to exploit it.
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post #13 of 20 Old 01-28-2013, 01:06 PM
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lol, I'm just gonna do some DIY ones so they're like 20 bucks for 2'x4', and it's not like when I move in a year or two I can't bring the panels with me to a better room smile.gif

Exactly - panels you build or buy can travel, just like speakers and any other audio gear. But I have to address the misguided notion that a bad room isn't worth treating. In fact, a room that's poor acoustically will benefit the most from even minimal treatment. If you read the Acoustics Basic article I linked above, you'll see that all home-sized rooms have severe peaks and nulls, and damaging reflections. Poorer rooms are even worse. So it only makes sense that a poorer room will benefit even more than a "normal" room.

--Ethan

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post #14 of 20 Old 06-17-2013, 07:08 AM - Thread Starter
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Does anyone have a good article or website about the placement of diffusers?

I have 5 panels I have built now that I am going to hang in my room, they are 2'x4' and 2" thick using roxul RHT80. I understand that I have to sit at my listening position and use a mirror along the walls and place them where I can see the speakers. So maybe 2 on each side wall and one on the back wall? Or should I do 2 on each side wall 1 on the ceiling, or 2 on each side wall 1 on the front wall?

I wan to build a couple diffusers as well, but am unsure of the placement. I want to build some of thes http://www.pmerecords.com/Diffusor.cfm , is there any reason to build the >1200hz diffuser over the >800 hz diffusers other than the fact that it is 4" deep instead of 8" deep?

Where do I place diffusers? Behind the listening position? How many 1.5' x 1.5' diffusers should I build?

Thanks
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post #15 of 20 Old 06-17-2013, 08:02 AM - Thread Starter
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Also what is the best way to hang panels on walls?
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post #16 of 20 Old 06-17-2013, 11:59 AM
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Diffusers generally work well on the rear wall behind you, though they can also be used in other places to make a small room sound larger. The deeper they are the better, though deeper than 8 or 9 inches is not necessary. These videos should help:

All About Diffusion
Hearing is Believing

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post #17 of 20 Old 06-17-2013, 01:12 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Ethan Winer View Post

Diffusers generally work well on the rear wall behind you, though they can also be used in other places to make a small room sound larger. The deeper they are the better, though deeper than 8 or 9 inches is not necessary. These videos should help:

All About Diffusion
Hearing is Believing

--Ethan

Thanks,

How many 1.5' x 1.5' x 8" max depth diffusors should I build then for my rear wall? Should I just make 2 and place them at the first reflection point on the rear wall? Or should I make like 4?

So should I put 2 absorption panels on each side wall and 1 on the ceiling at the first reflection points? And leave the front wall empty?
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post #18 of 20 Old 06-18-2013, 02:46 PM
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Originally Posted by WagBoss View Post

How many 1.5' x 1.5' x 8" max depth diffusors should I build then for my rear wall? Should I just make 2 and place them at the first reflection point on the rear wall? Or should I make like 4?

At that small size I'd say you need at least four. Really, you should cover much of the rear wall behind you, say, 3 feet high by 7.5 feet wide. Then you finish that wall with bass traps in the corners from floor to ceiling.
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So should I put 2 absorption panels on each side wall and 1 on the ceiling at the first reflection points? And leave the front wall empty?

Yes. But those too need to be larger than 1-1/2 feet square.

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post #19 of 20 Old 06-25-2013, 12:07 PM - Thread Starter
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So what is the general consensus of how to build corner bass traps? Just a big stack of triangles, or with some space behind it, something like this http://www.gearslutz.com/board/attachments/bass-traps-acoustic-panels-foam-etc/214363d1295031852t-new-kind-diy-corner-bass-trap-stackedpanels.jpg
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post #20 of 20 Old 06-26-2013, 12:28 PM
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Just a big stack of triangles, or with some space behind it, something like this http://www.gearslutz.com/board/attachments/bass-traps-acoustic-panels-foam-etc/214363d1295031852t-new-kind-diy-corner-bass-trap-stackedpanels.jpg

Solid fill works well, but is less cost-effective. This is from my Audio Expert book.

"Filling a corner fully with rigid fiberglass is only a little better than using a four-inch-thick panel straddling the corner. If you can afford only a limited amount of material, it’s better to have more panels straddling additional corners, rather than fewer corners filled solid. Since the material in the deepest part of a corner is near to the wall boundaries, there’s less wave velocity for the material to act on. But when performance matters more than cost, filling a corner fully does maximize absorption. A good compromise is to place rigid fiberglass panels four inches thick straddling each corner, with the cavity behind each panel filled with less expensive fluffy fiberglass."

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