What 2 channel should I get? And is McIntosh overated? - Page 10 - AVS Forum

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kiwi2's Avatar kiwi2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RayDunzl View Post

Which ones do you want?

The ones that will give the widest soundstage and the sweetest micro dynamics.
tvrgeek's Avatar tvrgeek
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The VERY best speaker cable for sound is Belden twisted pair you can get from BlueJeans or other distributors. I go Belden because I trust them. I have no indication it is actually better than generic. If you prefer, it is pretty easy to twist plain old 16 ga lamp cord. I say twisted, as in a long run it is possible to pick some RF and cause some issues. I had that happen to me many years ago from an illegal high power CB radio. It is possible to pick up some AC hum, though I have not had that problem. So, twisted pair. If running inside the wall for the surrounds, building code requires plenum rated cables. ( won't sustain a flame). CL2 rated cable is widely available I think the last spool I got of 16 Ga twisted pair CL2 was something like $70 for 100 feet.

Just don't get the clear "speaker cable" as the plasticers that make clear plastic clear and flexible are acidic and will corrode faster.

All other cables are better only for the sellers boat payment. Soundatage is 99% room treatment and speaker placement. "Microdynamics" is the tweeter quality and speaker execution. ( a single sharp edge induced diffraction can completely trash the subtle details) My mains are 16 Ga. I ran the 10 Ga to my subs as it is a 55 foot run. If one really believes it matters, then the obvious solution is to make the run as short as possible.

Take care of things in this order::
Speakers, ( 99% of the sound quality)
Room treatments, ( maintain the sound quality. A bit of Owens Corning 703 will do more for imaging than any investment known to mankind. )
Electronics. (the other 1%. And yes subtle differences can be heard, the OP's question was about the amplifier after all)

Bananna plugs are poor connections, so I just use the bare wire or tin the lead in the terminal post. The Speakon plugs on my sub amp seem to work fine. I wish we had old fashion terminal blocks. They work better.

I do not wish a long discussion on snake oil. Been there. Done that. If one's beliefs or bragging rights require special cables, then spend whatever makes your heart content. You only have to please yourself.
blazar's Avatar blazar
07:18 AM Liked: 270
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I vote for speakon connectors for all speakers and amp outputs. They are too good to be ignored from a long term convenience perspective. Banana plugs are just plain silly and many do not stay in properly, especially if some wire spaghetti is going on behind the equipment.
RayDunzl's Avatar RayDunzl
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kiwi2's Avatar kiwi2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tvrgeek View Post

The VERY best speaker cable for sound is Belden twisted pair you can get from BlueJeans or other distributors.

I don't like buying online as I prefer to support my local brick and mortar stores.

Here is what one of my local hifi retailers are offering...

$600..
CREATOR: gd-jpeg v1.0 (using IJG JPEG v62), quality = 100

$10,000...
CREATOR: gd-jpeg v1.0 (using IJG JPEG v62), quality = 100

$17,000...


$38,000...


If pricing reflects the quality of materials used and thus, sound quality, then would I be satisfied with the cheapest $600 set or should I dig a bit deeper for the middle tier. Or should I save another year and get the best so I won't end up thinking "what if" when sitting back and listening to music late in the evening and not being totally satisfied with any of the cheaper ones?

But then maybe all the audio technicians and electrical engineers are right and my $2 a metre speaker cable I got from the local electronics shop will sound just the same as any of those cables above...???
Naughtilus's Avatar Naughtilus
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I say go for it! 38 big ones mate. ;)


kiwi2's Avatar kiwi2
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Well that was money I was saving for a house deposit... but the photo of those cables does have a darker background and they also come in a velvet lined wooden box..



And a reviewer had this to say...

"If you are looking for a fairly subtle improvement from Odin you'll be wrong. The differences are massive." Alvin Gold, Hi-Fi Choice, The Collection 2007

So surely they are going to give me a much more natural organic sound than all the other cheaper rubbish..???
Naughtilus's Avatar Naughtilus
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From the looks of it YES! 

 


eljr's Avatar eljr
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kiwi2 View Post

Well that was money I was saving for a house deposit... but the photo of those cables does have a darker background and they also come in a velvet lined wooden box..



And a reviewer had this to say...

"If you are looking for a fairly subtle improvement from Odin you'll be wrong. The differences are massive." Alvin Gold, Hi-Fi Choice, The Collection 2007

So surely they are going to give me a much more natural organic sound than all the other cheaper rubbish..???

Do you know what a fixation is?
kiwi2's Avatar kiwi2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eljr View Post

Do you know what a fixation is?

Wasn't it you that said...

"Even luxury items have market considerations that force them to price their product competitively. BTW, most high end buyers are more savvy than low end buyers and you had better be able to justify price differences to them if you want more for your product than does your comp."

"Products are designed to fill a market niche. If a product cannot be designed to fill a perceived need at a competitive price point they are not produced and brought to market. The idea that audio is exempt from all free market constraints is beyond silly."

"I guess you are another guy who thinks luxury items are free of free market considerations. I can understand people not understanding what it takes to bring a new product to market but this is getting silly now."

"What on earth is your point other than audio companies pull prices out of the air in your opinion?"


... So going by your theory, each step up in the price of those speaker cables I am looking at must reflect something real and tangible in construction and sound quality and aren't just prices pulled out of thin air with clever marketing..?
FMW's Avatar FMW
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shortyg83 View Post

I really enjoyed reating that review. I am curious though. If they are over priced based on SQ . What could I get for around 1k that would sound as good? I really don't want a reciever for this setup. I prefer either integrated amp or amp/pre amp.

Sound quality is not an issue with modern solid state hi fi amplifiers. Choose one with the power and impedance handling your speakers require. It isn't any more complicated than that.
tvrgeek's Avatar tvrgeek
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FMW View Post

Sound quality is not an issue with modern solid state hi fi amplifiers. Choose one with the power and impedance handling your speakers require. It isn't any more complicated than that.

We will have to seriously disagree. Many "modern" amplifiers sound like total junk. Many are very good. Many are overrated and/or overpriced. They ARE an issue, but as I have mentioned, the speakers followed by the room are far more important.
tvrgeek's Avatar tvrgeek
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kiwi2 View Post

I don't like buying online as I prefer to support my local brick and mortar stores.

Here is what one of my local hifi retailers are offering...

...

If pricing reflects the quality of materials used and thus, sound quality, then would I be satisfied with the cheapest $600 set or should I dig a bit deeper for the middle tier. Or should I save another year and get the best so I won't end up thinking "what if" when sitting back and listening to music late in the evening and not being totally satisfied with any of the cheaper ones?

But then maybe all the audio technicians and electrical engineers are right and my $2 a metre speaker cable I got from the local electronics shop will sound just the same as any of those cables above...???

I have already provided guidance based on physics. Ego and boat payments may be valid business principals, but they are not valid audio principals. Do what makes you happy.
FMW's Avatar FMW
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tvrgeek View Post

We will have to seriously disagree. Many "modern" amplifiers sound like total junk. Many are very good. Many are overrated and/or overpriced. They ARE an issue, but as I have mentioned, the speakers followed by the room are far more important.

time for you to get involved with some bias controlled listening tests.
eljr's Avatar eljr
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FMW View Post

time for you to get involved with some bias controlled listening tests.

now those are the one's where they spend the day making sure both amps are set to play the same and then compare them, right? biggrin.gif
eljr's Avatar eljr
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kiwi2 View Post




.. each step up in the price of those speaker cables I am looking at must reflect something real and tangible in construction and sound quality and aren't just prices pulled out of thin air with clever marketing..?

There are more considerations that factor in than just construction (production) costs.

Sound quality would not affect the price up or down.

That would be a consideration for the value you are willing to associate with them as a consumer.

What happens in a free market is that if someone can bring a product to market at a higher value than can the competition, more units will be sold.
kiwi2's Avatar kiwi2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eljr View Post

There are more considerations that factor in than just construction (production) costs.

Sound quality would not affect the price up or down.

That would be a consideration for the value you are willing to associate with them as a consumer.

What happens in a free market is that if someone can bring a product to market at a higher value than can the competition, more units will be sold.

So are you now saying that price doesn't necessarily reflect quality of materials used or sound quality?

It's all about perception and association?

Wasn't that my point a few days ago that you disagreed with?

"That's why Lexicon charged $3500 for a $500 off the shelf BDP player with their own faceplate stuck on the front of it. Perception is everything. It doesn't actually have to relate to anything real."
kiwi2's Avatar kiwi2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tvrgeek View Post

I have already provided guidance based on physics. Ego and boat payments may be valid business principals, but they are not valid audio principals. Do what makes you happy.

But those 38k cables have a darker background. (and we all know how important a darker background is for music) And incorporating some wood grain finish is going to make me associate 'organic' and 'warm' and 'natural'.

And let's not forget the street cred I'll get with other audiophiles when they see I'm using 38k worth of speaker cables when I post photos of my system on interweb forums. Plus that will help bring up the total cost of my system so I can say "total system cost $200,000." How cool that will be..!

We all know that the more money someone charges on their credit card has a direct relationship to the level of knowledge in the particular interest/hobby they are in. Common mass produced rubbish only fit for the masses isn't for me and my highly tuned elite ears..!
Naughtilus's Avatar Naughtilus
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@kiwi2 

 

Lets say you are a billionaire and your 2 million dollar indoor swimming pool has a length half an arm shorter than your average swimming form from beginning to end. Will you order it to be demolitioned and replaced with a new one that is juuuust right? :D 


eljr's Avatar eljr
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kiwi2 View Post

So are you now saying that price doesn't necessarily reflect quality of materials used or sound quality?

It's all about perception and association?
]

No, you are not following me.

The costs of goods and operating expenses determine what a company MUST sell an item for.

The perceived value (sound quality in our discussion) is what the end user considers in his appraisal of worth. (what he is willing to pay)



Your discussion is centered on what is know as Prestige pricing. This is implemented through exclusivity.

This is a very small market which exists in virtually every retail category.

The costs to bring these products to market as exclusive are generally much higher than is none exclusive merchandise. These costs are passed along to the end user or they will not make a profit.

Prestige pricing IS NOT exempt from competition. I don't know how or why you have come to believe it is.
eljr's Avatar eljr
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kiwi2 View Post

But those 38k cables have a darker background. (and we all know how important a darker background is for music) And incorporating some wood grain finish is going to make me associate 'organic' and 'warm' and 'natural'.

And let's not forget the street cred I'll get with other audiophiles when they see I'm using 38k worth of speaker cables when I post photos of my system on interweb forums. Plus that will help bring up the total cost of my system so I can say "total system cost $200,000." How cool that will be..!

We all know that the more money someone charges on their credit card has a direct relationship to the level of knowledge in the particular interest/hobby they are in. Common mass produced rubbish only fit for the masses isn't for me and my highly tuned elite ears..!

Can you explain to me the difference between someone with a $200,000 system posting pics he is proud of and someone posting pics of a thousand dollar system he is proud of?

Weather someone is proud he has spent $200,000 on audio or someone is proud they have saved $199,000 on audio, it's the same mechanism at work.

BTW, I virtually NEVER see the boastful high end poster everyone here is constantly referencing.


As a student of psychology one would find this phenomenon interesting. wink.gif
blazar's Avatar blazar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eljr View Post

Can you explain to me the difference between someone with a $200,000 system posting pics he is proud of and someone posting pics of a thousand dollar system he is proud of?

Weather someone is proud he has spent $200,000 on audio or someone is proud they have saved $199,000 on audio, it's the same mechanism at work.

BTW, I virtually NEVER see the boastful high end poster everyone here is constantly referencing.


As a student of psychology one would find this phenomenon interesting. wink.gif

Well social networking is the whole reason that facebook or avs has done well. Human beings love to communicate, its a core imperative of our existence in a civilized society. Evolution has made us what we are.

The folks that have gotten to the point of fringe behavior (200000k speakers) are likely going to movie to other websites where they can surround themselves with folks that re-affirm their behaviour.

Stamp collectors to pedophiles have found a way to connect to eachother on the internet. The access to ideas that resonate with you is higher than ever.

I would suggest that we may have the least tolerant population in the history of history. The like/dislike craze coupled with the ability to "ignore" people is very divisive.

The human race can rapidly diverge genetically from one another if it hasn't already begun. The movie "divergent" which I haven't seen seems to be aptly named.

Go to the average news site (CNN/FOX) or AV site like AVS and the divisions between groups and the relative discrimination is escalating faster than anything I've ever heard of pre-internet. Perhaps the start of printed books was just as revolutionary at that time of Guttenberg.

The microcosm of avs can show us so much about human nature in terms of sociology and psychology. Imagine a serial killer: "it is my mission to purge the world of those that make $30k cables!" Or "it is my mission to purge rhe world of those that don't beleive in my high end speaker cables.... Evil filth".
eljr's Avatar eljr
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blazar View Post

"it is my mission to purge the world of those that make $30k cables!"... "it is my mission to purge rhe world of those that don't beleive in my high end speaker cables.... Evil filth".

If this is how you feel, you are in the right place. wink.gif

Yep, you are right, birds of a feather flock together.

Good post.
rlhaudio's Avatar rlhaudio
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You all recall the McIntosh MVP881 was just a re-badged Denon A1UDCI. but of course the McIntosh sold for $4,000 extra. How can they justify that. Well I guess since they are owned by the same company its all fair. Makes you wonder how much Denon technology Is hiding inside McIntosh. The Denon AVP-A1HDCI arrived before the McIntosh MX-150 but some of the specs were a match. Wonder if they used the same DAC. Don't say that to a Mac owner because they will flip their lid. Yet won't even reply about the MVP881. Maybe McIntosh wised up and placed components in different areas to make it less obvious. and made some changes of course cool.gif
Class A's Avatar Class A
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Just a reminder D&M has not owned McIntosh since 2012. It is owned by an Italian company Fine Sounds. They also own Sonus Faber, Audio Research, Wadia, Project and Sumiko. Can't see how D&M could possibly be joined at the hip over the last few years. smile.gif
rlhaudio's Avatar rlhaudio
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So McIntosh rebadged it. The lexicon / oppo rebadge was reported everywhere but when McIitosh got caught it sorta slipped through the cracks. Alot of people have never even heard about it before. Why dont these companies get charged with fraud when its clearly proven. Or at least stop buying components from companies that do so. If thers is no punishment they will continue to do so.
Jack D Ripper's Avatar Jack D Ripper
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rlhaudio View Post

So McIntosh rebadged it. The lexicon / oppo rebadge was reported everywhere but when McIitosh got caught it sorta slipped through the cracks. Alot of people have never even heard about it before. Why dont these companies get charged with fraud when its clearly proven. Or at least stop buying components from companies that do so. If thers is no punishment they will continue to do so.

It is not fraud because they never claimed it was not a rebadged item. In order to be fraud, they would have to be making a false or misleading statement about it.

It does, however, clearly prove that McIntosh products are at least sometimes overpriced for what one gets. I think they always are, but I don't really want to get into that at the moment.
rlhaudio's Avatar rlhaudio
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And salespeople can claim plausible deniability when they make statements that McIntosh units use more expensive components and bla bla bla. I guess Representatives for the companies can use the same claim. *sarcasm of course* In reality they may not be privy to that information themselves. I had a B&W rep demoing the 800 Diamond series speakers. He was justifying "why" they cost so much more than the competitors. I recall him stating the Diamond Tweeter costs B&W $5,000 for that single component. I of course asked if he was sure or was B&W misleading him. He stood by his word stating he was actually in England at the facility where they are built and is 100% certain. This was stated in front of a crowd of 20 or so people at a Hi-End store. So my next question was "If they cost $5,000 then B&W is giving away free speakers because the 805D at that time msrp for $5,000 per pair. Hmmmm

(I hope that didn't sound argumentative, I really am curious)

Are the representatives that work for these companies mislead which in turn inform the sales people which inform us? Who do we blame for the misinformation or when an item is re badged and sold? I'm just curious. I didn't mean to drag my point on but it would not have made sense otherwise.
Jack D Ripper's Avatar Jack D Ripper
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I am not saying that rebadging a component and inflating the price is not disreputable. I am only saying it does not qualify as fraud.

Sticking a super high price on something is not fraud.

As for your diamond tweeter example, I do not know who said what exactly, and I am not a lawyer, so I have no opinion on that, beyond the fact that salespeople are not generally noted for their honesty and integrity. If they were, there would not be such associations with the phrase "used car salesman" that there are.

Basically, people should remember that the interests of the salesperson and your interests are far from identical, and salespeople are motivated to say what is in their best interests, not yours.

As the great philosopher David Hume observed:

We entertain a suspicion concerning any matter of fact, when the witnesses contradict each other; when they are but few, or of a doubtful character; when they have an interest in what they affirm; when they deliver their testimony with hesitation, or on the contrary, with too violent asseverations. There are many other particulars of the same kind, which may diminish or destroy the force of any argument, derived from human testimony.

http://oll.libertyfund.org/titles/hume-enquiries-concerning-the-human-understanding-and-concerning-the-principles-of-morals

By "when they have an interest in what they affirm," he means when they have something to gain by saying what they are saying. Salespeople are interested in getting your money, and if what they say forwards that goal, then you have a reason to entertain some suspicion of their veracity. That is because they have a motive to say it that is independent of whether it is true or not.


And you are quite right to point out the fact that sometimes someone says something that is false not because they are trying to deceive you, but because they are themselves deceived. In order for it to be reasonable to believe someone, one should have reason to believe that the person has the relevant knowledge AND one has reason to believe that they are being honest. Lose either one of those, and you have no reason to believe the person. For the truth of what the person is saying, it makes no difference which it is, though it does make a difference for the person's level of discernment and integrity.
blazar's Avatar blazar
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There were food manufacturers that got "in trouble" for saying their products that might be totally unhealthy (with vegetable oil ingredients) that attempted to claim they have "no cholesterol". Only animal products contain cholesterol...

The statement is basically true but it is somewhat deceptive to the scientifically uninitiated and a label like that gives an impression of healthiness.

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