What 2 channel should I get? And is McIntosh overated? - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 303 Old 09-09-2013, 07:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Milt99 View Post

Yeah, Arny sugarcoats his posts to protect the self-esteem of the poster he's responding too.

Guilty as charged. I try to be nice to the newbies, but I'm not so careful with the more obvious trolls.

I left out the part where I bought my first SS amp in the mid-60s and was so turned off with it that I sold it and ran right out and bought yet another Dyna ST70. ;-)

Early SS was just not that good.

In retrospect, my second pass at SS with a Heath AR15 was durable enough and had mostly OK sound, but it had some audible speaker interaction funnies due to the single-ended power supply and large coupling capacitor output stage. That particular receiver had defective electrolytic coupling caps throughout the low level audio circuits that all dried out and lost 90% of their capacitance within 3 years. Heath's highly complex stereo multiplex decoder was always a PITA and I replaced it with a MC 3311 (if memory serves) chip that ran circles around it and stayed adjusted as the day, week, month and years were long.

So it really wasn't pass 3 wth a Heath AR1500 in the mid 1970s that I had what could be truly called a good modern SS amp. Pretty good tuner too!
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post #92 of 303 Old 09-09-2013, 08:33 AM
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My first solid state components were the Harman Kardon Eleven and Twelve. They were as good as anything we have today, just larger, heavier and less powerful. My last tube component was a Audio Research amp (I forgot the model) that I sold shortly after discovering it sounded just like a SS amp in 1998. Since then it has been one B&K stereo power amp and the rest have been mid fi integrateds and receivers. There hasn't been a change in sound quality through all of that. All of them were plenty powerful and they all sounded the same.
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post #93 of 303 Old 09-09-2013, 08:35 AM
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I suspected that to be the case, but you don't need any of that to use Internet radio with the newer tuners. I have a Denon DNP-720AE (other brands operate the same way), which includes both Internet radio and terrestrial radio . When you turn on the unit, it switches to Internet radio and displays local streaming stations. Using the remote and the 4-line display, 'Local Stations' lists everything nearby with a streaming equivalent. Where I live, it's every station I know of (and a bunch I've never heard of). A second press of a button on the remote saves a station as a preset. The end.

You never need to visit a web page or use an iPhone/iPod/iWhatever, if you don't want to (you can, if you like, use their web pages to browse more stations but all I use is the remote and the 4-line display). And, I do have the terrestrial receiver connected to a nice antenna, but I never use it - everything streams, sounds better and you get the track titles, et al.

Oh wow, I didnt know that internet radio on AVRs has gotten that nice. I am still used to what I described above.

It may just be my internet or my PC but I also get some very annoying distortion when listening to internet radio. I want to say it sounds like a IMD type of distortion but I dont really know what to call it. My PC has a Realtek HD audio sound card and then I also have an el-cheapo USB sound card if that makes any difference.

Trying to enjoy the simple things in life.

 

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post #94 of 303 Old 02-27-2014, 12:22 PM
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just bought the brand new Pass Labs XA30.8 this amplifier is genius level awesome. I have heard nothing so far as good as this including the Pass XA30.5 I had before... This sucker is HUGE though and irritating in that they widened the chassis so it no longer fits in my rack normally.

The sound through my horns though... sweet Jesus and Allah and Buddah or whatever... They are like a religious experience. How religious feel when they feel that Jesus has entered their soul ... I imagine thats how I feel with these speakers heard through Avantgarde Duo Omegas. Sound is SO realistic and the bass is so under control now that it impresses instantly.

All amps sound the same.... what a joke. I can point out this amp blindfolded while my nuts are on fire compared to my previous amp. The new Pass Labs line is very special if the rest of their amps are as good as this one. This makes me really wonder how good their top of the line amp/pre sounds... although I can't imagine getting any better than this.

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post #95 of 303 Old 03-01-2014, 01:29 PM
 
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Originally Posted by blazar View Post

just bought the brand new Pass Labs XA30.8 this amplifier is genius level awesome. I have heard nothing so far as good as this including the Pass XA30.5 I had before... This sucker is HUGE though and irritating in that they widened the chassis so it no longer fits in my rack normally.

The sound through my horns though... sweet Jesus and Allah and Buddah or whatever... They are like a religious experience. How religious feel when they feel that Jesus has entered their soul ... I imagine thats how I feel with these speakers heard through Avantgarde Duo Omegas. Sound is SO realistic and the bass is so under control now that it impresses instantly.

All amps sound the same.... what a joke. I can point out this amp blindfolded while my nuts are on fire compared to my previous amp. The new Pass Labs line is very special if the rest of their amps are as good as this one. This makes me really wonder how good their top of the line amp/pre sounds... although I can't imagine getting any better than this.

It sounds as if you made this all up to convince us that you really heard a huge difference. You must not try so hard as people can read between the lines.
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post #96 of 303 Old 03-01-2014, 01:51 PM
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Originally Posted by blazar View Post

just bought the brand new Pass Labs XA30.8 this amplifier is genius level awesome. I have heard nothing so far as good as this including the Pass XA30.5 I had before... This sucker is HUGE though and irritating in that they widened the chassis so it no longer fits in my rack normally.

The sound through my horns though... sweet Jesus and Allah and Buddah or whatever... They are like a religious experience. How religious feel when they feel that Jesus has entered their soul ... I imagine thats how I feel with these speakers heard through Avantgarde Duo Omegas. Sound is SO realistic and the bass is so under control now that it impresses instantly.

All amps sound the same.... what a joke. I can point out this amp blindfolded while my nuts are on fire compared to my previous amp. The new Pass Labs line is very special if the rest of their amps are as good as this one. This makes me really wonder how good their top of the line amp/pre sounds... although I can't imagine getting any better than this.

Sorry to hear that. The company has a good reputation. It is sad to hear that they are now producing an amplifier with a sonic signature.
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post #97 of 303 Old 03-01-2014, 01:52 PM
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Here (or hear) we go again.
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post #98 of 303 Old 03-10-2014, 02:30 PM
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I feel up to a certain price tier, the laws of diminishing returns kick in. You are essentially paying for aesthetics.

This is what I observed so far reading from various forums and reviews....

Vu meters = warm
Blue lights = warm
Dials as opposed to buttons = warm
Black and silver case = warm
Toroid Transformer = warm
Yellow bulbs = warm
Big switches = warm
Not Made in China = warm
British made stuff = warm
Cherry, Oak, Rosenut finish = warm
Listening in deem lit room = warm
Sitting on soft cozy sofa/chair = warm


Sometimes my warm = your muddy. It's all relative. wink.gif

If you like it, buy it. Mcs are nice.
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post #99 of 303 Old 03-10-2014, 03:03 PM
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Well I refuse to try tube amps for horns because I don't think I want the inconvenience of tubes nor the high distortion. On the other hand MANY amps have terrible hiss and other audible noises out of high sensitivity horns. I have gone through multiple amps with mediocre results. I can clearly say that this amp produces zero hiss on 105db sensitivity speakers.

I would have tried the JC1 amp from Parasound which has also been received very well but I saw no testimonials on these with owners of very high sensitivity horns and I really didn't want yet another amplifier pair to break my back returning. They also have massive excess wattage horns do not need.

Think what you may about the "sound" an amp makes... but this one does sound great... whatever that means. I offer the testimonial primarily to other folks that love the horn sound. It is hard to shop for amps for horns. There certainly aren't many 30 watt options.

Nelson Pass CLEARLY states in multiple postings and magazine articles/interviews that he likes to listen to what an amp sounds like before finalizing any designs. Certainly Pass is among the well respected amplifier designers out there. His philosophy is that all amps have a "sound" which is contrary to the theme of the "All amps sound the same" thread. If he could get rid of the "sound" an amp makes, I suppose he would. From Pass' perspective, all amps have a sound and he does build to achieve what he thinks are characteristics he wants out of an amplifier. His design philosophy is one of design minimalism and simplicity coupled with parts that achieve his goals.

I don't mind buying from a guy that builds amplifiers "just for fun" and he also sells various versions (First Watt) with various types of designs and parts. It would not surprise me that his many iterations of amps that he has built over his lifetime and since the last version of amps ... that he learned a thing or two. The obsessiveness with which a designer creates products is something to respect. Reading the threads of others who have built Pass's designs on the DIYaudio forums have been instructive as well. The failure rate on Pass designed amps have been extremely low which is another good thing. I love the value retention of Pass amps too. If this amp sucked, I could easily sell it for the same price I paid.

I do know that I have found my "nirvana" with this amp and my current speakers... take that as a positive review and for what it's worth. You have every right to be skeptical as I am VERY skeptical myself. Since there are no formal reviews anywhere on this product, I throw my two cents in there for potential consumers. Disclosure: I have no financial connections or industry ties.

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post #100 of 303 Old 03-10-2014, 04:06 PM
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From the schematics I have seen from Pass amplifiers I deduce that he did not have learned how to implement proper overall feedback in an amplifier design yet.

Placing the current output stage after the feedback point is his trick to market his amps as 'low feedback' designs towards the audiophile.
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post #101 of 303 Old 03-11-2014, 05:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blazar View Post


Nelson Pass CLEARLY states in multiple postings and magazine articles/interviews that he likes to listen to what an amp sounds like before finalizing any designs. Certainly Pass is among the well respected amplifier designers out there. His philosophy is that all amps have a "sound" which is contrary to the theme of the "All amps sound the same" thread. If he could get rid of the "sound" an amp makes, I suppose he would. From Pass' perspective, all amps have a sound and he does build to achieve what he thinks are characteristics he wants out of an amplifier. His design philosophy is one of design minimalism and simplicity coupled with parts that achieve his goals.

.

Yes, there is no question that he is part of the high end mainstream.
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post #102 of 303 Old 03-11-2014, 05:34 AM
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Originally Posted by blazar View Post

just bought the brand new Pass Labs XA30.8 this amplifier is genius level awesome. I have heard nothing so far as good as this including the Pass XA30.5 I had before... This sucker is HUGE though and irritating in that they widened the chassis so it no longer fits in my rack normally.

The sound through my horns though... sweet Jesus and Allah and Buddah or whatever... They are like a religious experience. How religious feel when they feel that Jesus has entered their soul ... I imagine thats how I feel with these speakers heard through Avantgarde Duo Omegas. Sound is SO realistic and the bass is so under control now that it impresses instantly.

All amps sound the same.... what a joke. I can point out this amp blindfolded while my nuts are on fire compared to my previous amp. The new Pass Labs line is very special if the rest of their amps are as good as this one. This makes me really wonder how good their top of the line amp/pre sounds... although I can't imagine getting any better than this.

The really sad joke is the idea that one can find out anything reliable or sensitive by means of the casual kind of evaluation that seems to be described above. It can only work well if one or both of the amps were to be highly defective.
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post #103 of 303 Old 03-11-2014, 05:36 AM
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Originally Posted by FMW View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by blazar View Post


Nelson Pass CLEARLY states in multiple postings and magazine articles/interviews that he likes to listen to what an amp sounds like before finalizing any designs. Certainly Pass is among the well respected amplifier designers out there. His philosophy is that all amps have a "sound" which is contrary to the theme of the "All amps sound the same" thread. If he could get rid of the "sound" an amp makes, I suppose he would. From Pass' perspective, all amps have a sound and he does build to achieve what he thinks are characteristics he wants out of an amplifier. His design philosophy is one of design minimalism and simplicity coupled with parts that achieve his goals.

.

Yes, there is no question that he is part of the high end mainstream.

I'd agree with that and raise you a bunch of chips. IME Pass is one of the original co-conspirators that led to much of the weirdness that characterizes much of the high end today. Ditto for Curl.
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post #104 of 303 Old 03-11-2014, 07:44 AM
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Well it's possible that they are all insane or at least eccentric ... The obsessiveness and single mindedness can only be understood by others that are that way about their respective fields. You could save a LOT of money by just putting all amps in a cheap black heat sink box. You could save even more by building one yourself. Pass has both a "cheap line" (First Watt) and a DIY forum where he gives away his schematics for anyone to peruse. Not sure what else you would want from a manufacturer...

On a side note, there is a reason that religions attract so many people. Human psychology is funny that way. I can give you ANY human being and they will have a quasi-religious (not based on evidence) belief about something in their life. This includes atheists (which I happen to be). This is not to say that relgious "ecstasy" or even love in general cannot be felt without organized religion.

There is a new study that had come out that about 5% of people don't care about music And don't have any emotional response to it. Perhaps these folks should build us amplifiers. In fact I would wager that some of those people are on avs forums but like the equipment for other reasons... Visual, scientific ... Or whatever.

We are all insane about something, this is a certainty. Love of anything is a perfect example of this irrationality. The opposite of this often characterized by Vulcans in star trek. But even they would have to have irrational beliefs in order to convince themselves that existence itself was meaningful.

Existential nihilism afflicts us all and only irrational belief systems "protect" us psychologically. Knowing that the black hole at the center of our galaxy will eventually consume everything ... Why wake up in the morning at all? Nothing you do will ever matter... Your ancestors and your creations will be gone. Billions of years isn't that long.

Blazar!
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post #105 of 303 Old 03-11-2014, 08:19 AM
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Well it's possible that they are all insane or at least eccentric ....

No, not at all. They simply allow hearing bias to enter into their decision making. It's very normal. You do the same.
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post #106 of 303 Old 03-11-2014, 08:23 AM
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Mr. Krueger,

Give to us your ultimate 2-channel stereo system, the one you'd just die for.

Break it down component by component, amps, speakers, source, cables, etc. Then tell us why.

I need to learn from the master.

Derogatory terms like "analog bigot", "digiphobe", "internet eggspurts" have nothing to do with electrical engineering.
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post #107 of 303 Old 03-11-2014, 09:09 AM
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Originally Posted by blazar View Post

Well it's possible that they are all insane or at least eccentric ....

No, not at all. They simply allow hearing bias to enter into their decision making. It's very normal. You do the same.

I think that most people in the audio business have a bias towards having money in their pockets. I do, too. ;-)
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post #108 of 303 Old 03-11-2014, 02:50 PM
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Mr. Krueger,

Give to us your ultimate 2-channel stereo system, the one you'd just die for.

Break it down component by component, amps, speakers, source, cables, etc. Then tell us why.

I need to learn from the master.

I know you're being facetious, but what this post really demonstrates is that you miss the point entirely.
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post #109 of 303 Old 03-11-2014, 03:16 PM
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No, not at all. They simply allow hearing bias to enter into their decision making. It's very normal. You do the same.

And you have a bias against people with hearing bias. You have a preference to posting on forums. This time you spent represents an opportunity cost.

See my point about existential nihilism. I can reduce everything to nothingness. We are all nothing.

Hearing bias... lol this is the least of our problems. The entire cognitive universe is an illusion. Free will is an illusion. The color magenta cannot even be registered as a separate frequency outside our brain, yet we "See it".



"We are the story we tell ourselves"

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post #110 of 303 Old 03-11-2014, 03:40 PM
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I know you're being facetious, but what this post really demonstrates is that you miss the point entirely.
The question was not addressed to you. I wasn't being facetious and you missed my point entirely.

Derogatory terms like "analog bigot", "digiphobe", "internet eggspurts" have nothing to do with electrical engineering.
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post #111 of 303 Old 03-11-2014, 04:06 PM
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The question was not addressed to you. I wasn't being facetious and you missed my point entirely.

Fair enough. I may have misread your intentions.

Since you're new here, you may not have seen enough of Arny's posts to know that - if I may speak for him - he'd never answer something like that with specific brands and models. The proper tool depends on the application and the budget, and there is no "ultimate" system, and that sort of thing. And given that he consistently recommends AVRs over dedicated two-channel systems, I doubt he had a "dream" dedicated two-channel system.

OK, I'm done speaking for him. I'm sure he'll be along soon enough.

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post #112 of 303 Old 03-11-2014, 05:31 PM
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And you have a bias against people with hearing bias. You have a preference to posting on forums. This time you spent represents an opportunity cost.

Not at all. I have hearing bias just like you and everyone else.
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See my point about existential nihilism. I can reduce everything to nothingness. We are all nothing.

Speak for yourself.
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post #113 of 303 Old 03-11-2014, 06:24 PM
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Personally , when shopping for speakers and and amp , i prefer to buy them both at the same place . That way , you can hear how they sound together . Because if you have your mind set on a pair of speakers , you would want to carry those around while listening to amps and vice versa . I find it easier to buy them both at the same place . If you want a certain brand amp , find a dealer who sells them and listen to that amp with a variety of speakers until you find what you desire . I do that for headphones and headphone amps as well smile.gif
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post #114 of 303 Old 03-12-2014, 05:56 AM
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Mr. Krueger,

Give to us your ultimate 2-channel stereo system, the one you'd just die for.

There is no such thing.

(1) For me audio is a hobby and avocation, and nothing that I'd allow myself to be even slightly harmed for.

(2) My ultimate audio system would have at least 3 channels, not 2.
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Break it down component by component, amps, speakers, source, cables, etc. Then tell us why.

I need to learn from the master.

First lesson: Take it easy! ;-)

Lesson 2: There's a lot of good audio gear out there, but none if it is uniquely superior to all of the rest.

Lesson 3: A lot of the beauty of an audio system comes from how it is integrated with the listening environment.
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post #115 of 303 Old 03-12-2014, 06:19 AM
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Personally , when shopping for speakers and and amp , i prefer to buy them both at the same place . That way , you can hear how they sound together . Because if you have your mind set on a pair of speakers , you would want to carry those around while listening to amps and vice versa . I find it easier to buy them both at the same place . If you want a certain brand amp , find a dealer who sells them and listen to that amp with a variety of speakers until you find what you desire . I do that for headphones and headphone amps as well smile.gif

What would cause speakers to sound different with different amps, assuming both are competently designed and built and powerful enough to reach the desired sound pressure level? Have you ever done any level matched blind tests with different amps at the dealer?
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post #116 of 303 Old 03-12-2014, 07:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk
"For me audio is a hobby and avocation..."
For me audio is a method that allows the listener to experience the music.
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Originally Posted by arnyk
"...and nothing that I'd allow myself to be even slightly harmed for."
You certainly take comments literally don't you.
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Originally Posted by arnyk
"There's a lot of good audio gear out there..."
Name a few, enlighten me.
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Originally Posted by arnyk
"...but none if it is uniquely superior to all of the rest."
All or nothing thinking.

Derogatory terms like "analog bigot", "digiphobe", "internet eggspurts" have nothing to do with electrical engineering.
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post #117 of 303 Old 03-12-2014, 07:50 AM
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Originally Posted by FMW
"Have you ever done any level matched blind tests with different amps at the dealer?"
How high is the volume level?

Derogatory terms like "analog bigot", "digiphobe", "internet eggspurts" have nothing to do with electrical engineering.
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post #118 of 303 Old 03-12-2014, 10:02 AM
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Name a few, enlighten me.
All or nothing thinking.

I suspect beaveav had it right the first time. Either you've missed the point entirely or you are indeed being facetious with what appear to be loaded questions.
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post #119 of 303 Old 03-12-2014, 10:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SubObjective99 View Post

How high is the volume level?

At whatever volume level you choose. If you plan to often, or at least occasionally, listen at high volume levels, then it would behoove you to compare at those levels too.

Mourning the disappearing usage of the -ly suffix. Words being cut-off before they've had a chance to fully form, left incomplete, with their shoelaces untied and their zippers undone. If I quote your post (or post in your thread) without comment, please check your zipper.
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post #120 of 303 Old 03-12-2014, 10:12 AM
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I had a Pioneer integrated amp in the early 80s that looked much like that Akai. It was very fine sounding.
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