What 2 channel should I get? And is McIntosh overated? - Page 9 - AVS Forum
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post #241 of 303 Old 05-26-2014, 04:23 PM
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Originally Posted by eljr View Post

I have no clue what it cost them to rework it but knowing business and ignoring the silly notion that high end retail just plucks prices from the sky leads me to believe the costs are roughly half the MSRP. Understand, some products have a longer mark up and others a lower, from the same vendor, depending on market and marketing.

As far as I can tell, high end components aren't priced based on production costs. Most of them are based on the company's need for revenue and profit divided by the number of units they expect to sell. These companies represent the short end of the concept of economies of scale. Since their target customer is so small and relatively affluent, I think most of them believe - and rightly so - that increasing the selling price won't effect demand. Audiophiles, oddly, think selling price is an indicator of sound quality. The high end of audio is quick to take advantage of that belief.
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post #242 of 303 Old 05-26-2014, 04:40 PM
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You brought up Lexicon and Oppo. Lexicon did the same thing with its room correction, they cloned the McIntosh men 220. McIntosh also used the same blu ray transport Denon used in its blu ray player (mvp881) and charged $8000! Must be nice to own a mac.. lol Wonder what other components they use from Denon, and place a McIntosh placard on it.
I do believe aesthetics play a part when pricing. After all if Emotiva put their case on a MC 601 people would still pay for the McIntosh logo. So, lets look inside the case, are the parts really that much more? Yeah McIntosh is assembled in the USA but lets be real, the parts come from China. All companies get their internal parts from china or somewhere overseas. Are their differences between one toroidal transformer and another? What about the Caps, Resistors, etc. Inquiring minds wanna know. biggrin.gif

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post #243 of 303 Old 05-26-2014, 04:51 PM
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I'd like to see the ACTUAL frequency of repair records of "high end" components vs. those that aren't high end, similar to what Consumer Reports does with cars. Is high end stuff REALLY more durable and less prone to faults, or is that just an assumption?
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post #244 of 303 Old 05-26-2014, 04:59 PM
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No, you just shoot everyone who puts beer on your Mcintosh at a party, thus giving it longer lifespan. No worries if beer spills on a Behringer amp, party on!

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post #245 of 303 Old 05-26-2014, 05:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rlhaudio View Post

...Lexicon did the same thing with its room correction, they cloned the McIntosh men 220.
That's incorrect. The MEN220 uses Room Perfect, licensed from Lyngdorf. No Lex has ever used this RC product.
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post #246 of 303 Old 05-26-2014, 05:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RobertR View Post

I'd like to see the ACTUAL frequency of repair records of "high end" components vs. those that aren't high end, similar to what Consumer Reports does with cars. Is high end stuff REALLY more durable and less prone to faults, or is that just an assumption?

The only "high end" products I've owned are a Mc C28 pre and a MC 2205 bought new in '76. The pre has been shelved for years but the tech at the place I bought these from was retiring some five years ago, so I lugged the amp in to have it tested and it benched to spec. It still is in duty as the primary amp for my media room; all this without the slightest hiccup - other than having a few lamps replaced at that time.

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post #247 of 303 Old 05-26-2014, 05:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by citizen arcane View Post

The only "high end" products I've owned are a Mc C28 pre and a MC 2205 bought new in '76. The pre has been shelved for years but the tech at the place I bought these from was retiring some five years ago, so I lugged the amp in to have it tested and it benched to spec. It still is in duty as a primary amp for my media room All this without the slightest hiccup - other than having a few lamps replaced at that time.
That anecdotal experience is nice, but it's a uselessly small sample. Consumer Reports tracks tens or hundreds of THOUSANDS of reports. That's what would be useful.
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post #248 of 303 Old 05-26-2014, 05:05 PM
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Originally Posted by eljr View Post

You seem to think the cost to produce, market and distribute all audio is equal. It's not the case. Different materials have different costs. Products hand made or with exacting standards cost more. Brands that wish to use marketing to convey the brand style and story will cost more than a Walmart brand like Emotiva.

This is all straight up business.

Some understand it better than others, that is obvious.


Of course I realise costs like marketing need to be passed on to the product. The money you pay for your breakfast cereal you have for breakfast in the mornings mostly goes on advertising for the product and the printing on the box to put it in. Only a small percentage of the cost is actually for the food itself.

But then if a large proportion of any product retail price is the marketing costs then you need ask yourself what came first, the chicken or the egg? Yes you could advertise your product in National Geographic for ten years straight and establish your product as a quality product in the psyche of the nation and people will happily pay that extra advertising cost on your product. But then that same product without that advertising cost at a lower price is still going to be exact same product, right? Only it isn't going to be perceived as a quality product.

You demonstrate this principle nicely here by referring to Emotiva as a "Walmart brand". Because it's cheaper it is believed to be inferior. So therefore if you price something higher people will believe it is superior.

That's why Lexicon charged $3500 for a $500 off the shelf BDP player with their own faceplate stuck on the front of it. Perception is everything. It doesn't actually have to relate to anything real.

How do you think they can charge $120,000 for a lady's handbag when something that looks pretty much the same and does the same job could only cost $49...??

Yes it cost one of the companies a lot of money to establish its name by turning up at fashion shows and making sure someone famous was carrying their handbag and a photo of it ended up in a fashion magazine or something and spent years marketing and establishing the name until it became a thing of prestige of pride of ownership and status symbol. You have just added value to your $49 product to now become a $120,000 product. Yes there are more costs in marketing its name but is it really such a superior product in reality? (not just in people's perceptions)

.
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post #249 of 303 Old 05-26-2014, 05:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RobertR View Post

That anecdotal experience is nice, but it's a uselessly small sample. Consumer Reports tracks tens or hundreds of THOUSANDS of reports. That's what would be useful.

Well now you need one less to match that criteria. biggrin.gif

Edit:

I just did a quick search and the price being asked for this this amp at Audio Classics is about seven or eight hundred more than I paid for it - so it held its value well.

Would I buy a new Mc again? Likely not, I don't have the discretionary income.

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post #250 of 303 Old 05-26-2014, 05:25 PM
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Originally Posted by rlhaudio View Post

Yeah McIntosh is assembled in the USA but lets be real, the parts come from China. All companies get their internal parts from china or somewhere overseas.

I understand one prestigious amplifier manufacturer in the USA moved its production to China but still kept its retail price at the higher end of the market without any reduction in price after the move. I guess once you have established brand name image in the marketplace then you can keep capitalising on that for as long as you can.
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post #251 of 303 Old 05-26-2014, 05:45 PM
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Hansen Audio Grand Master speakers sell for $240,000. You can buy them today, they are built in Canada. 

 

 

 

 

 


The Bösendorfer Model 290 Imperial (9' 6" long concert piano) used by artists like Keith Jarrett to record The Köln Concert, sells at $157,000 with a minimum of 7 years waiting period to be built in Wien, Austria.

 

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post #252 of 303 Old 05-26-2014, 06:46 PM
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This is sort of off-topic, but I ordered one of these yesterday, does it look ok?


I'll be back later...


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post #253 of 303 Old 05-26-2014, 07:10 PM
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post #254 of 303 Old 05-26-2014, 07:51 PM
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Yes, I saw that, but I'm interested only in the digital outs, which my current device doesn't have, and can't have...

"The SAF7730 has no output-data pins so modification to provide digital output isn't possible."

http://ham-radio.com/k6sti/xdr-f1hd.htm

The author of that is here - http://www.avsforum.com/t/1020511/sony-xdr-f1hd-technical-review/0_100

I really like the Sony. I listen to WUSF WSMR WMNF here, and the transmitter farm is about 2 miles away.

... and just to keep things on topic, I don't believe McIntosh is overrated if you don't overrate them. "And what two-channel should I get?" - I usually get what I think I really really want, and then keep it a long time.

I'll be back later...


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post #255 of 303 Old 05-27-2014, 01:43 PM
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A comment earlier on costs. A little business data here to put things into perspective:

A store has to do about 35% to keep the lights on. More if they want to eat.
If it won't ship UPS, shipping can add up for big heavy things ( common carrier charges)
Unless a really powerful retailer, they have to deal with the distributor. He is not free.
Frequently there is a rep in between.
The factory is in business to make money. Most won't put up with less than 15% after all is said and done. Remember they have to advertise, design, litigate and deal with warranties.

So, if you want to look at a series cost of unit production and compare it to the retail price, it is more like 10%. High end prestige, maybe half that. Low end equipment, much thinner margins. ( Chevy sold every Chevett at a $50 loss just to hold the market.) The miracle is how you can buy a calculator at the drug store for $5. Even with prison Chinese labor I don;t know how they do it.

A few companies deal consumer direct to reduce that chain. They still have to provide all the services, but quality for dollar, they are about half of a brick and mortar retail source. The burden to hear it lands with you, not the store where it can be demo'd, returned, questions asked and your ego stroked. ( If I needed to buy an amp today, I would buy an Outlaw)

None of that matters unless you are in the chain. What matters to the consumer is if the price you pay seems fair for the product you get. If you try and abstract that to a unit cost, you will have a very unhappy life dealing with constant buyers remorse. "Be happy, Don't worry"
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post #256 of 303 Old 05-27-2014, 03:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Naughtilus View Post

No, you just shoot everyone who puts beer on your Mcintosh at a party, thus giving it longer lifespan. No worries if beer spills on a Behringer amp, party on!

I once had a girlfriend who thought my subwoofer was a cross between a coffee table and bench seating.

cool.gif

What you got back home, little sister, to play your fuzzy warbles on? I bet you got little save pitiful, portable picnic players. Come with uncle and hear all proper! Hear angel trumpets and devil trombones. You are invited.
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post #257 of 303 Old 05-27-2014, 03:32 PM
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As far as I can tell, high end components aren't priced based on production costs. .

You may be right but I spent many decades in wholesale/retail and never knew a vendor nor industry that could do so.

Even luxury items have market considerations that force them to price their product competitively.

BTW, most high end buyers are more savvy than low end buyers and you had better be able to justify price differences to them if you want more for your product than does your comp.

What you got back home, little sister, to play your fuzzy warbles on? I bet you got little save pitiful, portable picnic players. Come with uncle and hear all proper! Hear angel trumpets and devil trombones. You are invited.
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post #258 of 303 Old 05-28-2014, 01:42 PM
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Unless the manufacture is a total fool, all products are priced based on their analysis of the market. Don't forget the mistake Ferrari made with the F40. ( or was that the GTO) One can only hope that is high enough to make a profit.
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post #259 of 303 Old 05-29-2014, 11:14 PM
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The new porsche and mclaren are selling out even before they are released...

Brand cache and excellent aesthetics are a MUST if you want to make a profit on higher margins. Speakers and amps are otherwise low margin commodities at this point. You want buyers who have limitless funds for whom spending 5k on amp means nothing to them financially.

I dont care much for mcintosh asthetics. It reminds me of skeumorphism in software. The meter makes no sense and has no purpose but to identify the product as mcintosh. The face of a mac amp has no function as a heatsink either as far as i can tell. Brands that trade function for aesthetics as a priority are selling you a religion... But at least at resale time there are other "believers" out there.

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post #260 of 303 Old 05-30-2014, 04:02 PM
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Originally Posted by tvrgeek View Post

Unless the manufacture is a total fool, all products are priced based on their analysis of the market. Don't forget the mistake Ferrari made with the F40. ( or was that the GTO) One can only hope that is high enough to make a profit.

Products are designed to fill a market niche. If a product cannot be designed to fill a perceived need at a competitive price point they are not produced and brought to market.

The idea that audio is exempt from all free market constraints is beyond silly.

What you got back home, little sister, to play your fuzzy warbles on? I bet you got little save pitiful, portable picnic players. Come with uncle and hear all proper! Hear angel trumpets and devil trombones. You are invited.
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post #261 of 303 Old 05-31-2014, 03:43 AM
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Segway
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post #262 of 303 Old 05-31-2014, 09:54 AM
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Products are designed to fill a market niche. If a product cannot be designed to fill a perceived need at a competitive price point they are not produced and brought to market.
Looks like you don't know the market in real world. rolleyes.gif If the perceived need isn't there, it will be created by the sellers. Look at the sales pitch thrown around here by salesmen posting as regular members.

If you haven't, I suggest you watch The Wolf of Wall Street, "creating urgency", "get them to want to buy".
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post #263 of 303 Old 05-31-2014, 10:24 AM
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Originally Posted by spkr View Post

Looks like you don't know the market in real world. rolleyes.gif If the perceived need isn't there, it will be created by the sellers. Look at the sales pitch thrown around here by salesmen posting as regular members.

If you haven't, I suggest you watch The Wolf of Wall Street, "creating urgency", "get them to want to buy".

So a Hollywood movie is better representative of the real world?
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post #264 of 303 Old 05-31-2014, 10:44 AM
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Originally Posted by spkr View Post

Looks like you don't know the market in real world. rolleyes.gif If the perceived need isn't there, it will be created by the sellers. Look at the sales pitch thrown around here by salesmen posting as regular members.

If you haven't, I suggest you watch The Wolf of Wall Street, "creating urgency", "get them to want to buy".

Let me get this straight, you reference a Hollywood movie as your knowledge data base?

LOL

Establishing a market for a product is not at odds with then filling that niche. Your reply is just not logical.


I guess you are another guy who thinks luxury items are free of free market considerations.

I can understand people not understanding what it takes to bring a new product to market but this is getting silly now.

What you got back home, little sister, to play your fuzzy warbles on? I bet you got little save pitiful, portable picnic players. Come with uncle and hear all proper! Hear angel trumpets and devil trombones. You are invited.
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post #265 of 303 Old 05-31-2014, 12:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eljr View Post

Let me get this straight, you reference a Hollywood movie as your knowledge data base?
Please read my post again and when you do, pay close attention to what's in the same first paragraph.
Quote:
Your reply is just not logical.
It's factual.
Quote:
I guess you are another guy who thinks luxury items are free of free market considerations.

I can understand people not understanding what it takes to bring a new product to market but this is getting silly now.
It seems that you don't know the market in the real world.
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post #266 of 303 Old 05-31-2014, 12:20 PM
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Originally Posted by FMW View Post

So a Hollywood movie is better representative of the real world?
Nope. What's been seen on this very forum is better representation of the real world market I described.
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post #267 of 303 Old 05-31-2014, 03:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eljr View Post

Products are designed to fill a market niche. If a product cannot be designed to fill a perceived need at a competitive price point they are not produced and brought to market.

The idea that audio is exempt from all free market constraints is beyond silly.

At the moment I am using cheap 12g speaker wire from my local electronics shop. Just about every electronics engineer and audio technician says that is what all I would ever need.

But would I notice an improvement if I upgraded to these $600 speaker cables..??

Hang on, would these ones be better..? They cost $10,000 so they must be better, right...???

But then what about these ones..??? They must be better at $17,000...!!!

Actually these must be the best at $38,000 and the rest just sound like cheap rubbish...???

So confusing deciding what cable to use....???

Or maybe it's all a load of BS with products and pricing pulled out of their own backsides...???

.
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post #268 of 303 Old 05-31-2014, 08:49 PM
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Originally Posted by spkr View Post

Please read my post again and when you do, pay close attention to what's in the same first paragraph.
It's factual.
It seems that you don't know the market in the real world.

Quote:
Originally Posted by spkr View Post

Nope. What's been seen on this very forum is better representation of the real world market I described.

What on earth is your point other than audio companies pull prices out of the air in your opinion?

What you got back home, little sister, to play your fuzzy warbles on? I bet you got little save pitiful, portable picnic players. Come with uncle and hear all proper! Hear angel trumpets and devil trombones. You are invited.
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post #269 of 303 Old 05-31-2014, 10:03 PM
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What on earth is your point other than audio companies pull prices out of the air in your opinion?

Please help me choose which speaker cables to get from the list above.

Should I just stick with my $2 a metre cable I am already using or would I notice a difference with the $600 set?

But then I've got plenty of money in the bank so would the $10k or $17k sets give an improvement in sound quality again?

Or if I save another year I could afford the $38k set. Would that be the best way to go? Do it right the first time instead of second guessing myself and not been totally satisfied with any of the other cables..???
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post #270 of 303 Old 05-31-2014, 10:21 PM
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Which ones do you want?
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I'll be back later...


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