my thoughts on optical vs coaxial cables from your player to your DAC, - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 112 Old 04-07-2013, 05:12 PM
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Originally Posted by esh516 View Post

Well your right..I have been spending too much time here spinning my wheels,when I could have been spending that time listening to music!.. Its not that I am trying to make you a believer,I'm not,we all have our own opinions on this topic,but never in my 50 yrs have I come across this many people that do not believe in good cables,even parasound was using straight wire interconnects & power cords at c.e.s. this year!... I respect your beliefs, I just do not at all in a million yrs believe in them..my cables ..yes all of them,have been a great upgrade in my system. Just enjoy the music!.... With whatever cables you use!

To hear a difference in cables you MUST have the equipment for this, you will not hear much on home theater gear don't worry esh516, one day they will ( BELIEVE )

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post #92 of 112 Old 04-07-2013, 07:10 PM
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Originally Posted by MrAcoustat View Post

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Originally Posted by esh516 View Post

Well your right..I have been spending too much time here spinning my wheels,when I could have been spending that time listening to music!.. Its not that I am trying to make you a believer,I'm not,we all have our own opinions on this topic,but never in my 50 yrs have I come across this many people that do not believe in good cables,even parasound was using straight wire interconnects & power cords at c.e.s. this year!... I respect your beliefs, I just do not at all in a million yrs believe in them..my cables ..yes all of them,have been a great upgrade in my system. Just enjoy the music!.... With whatever cables you use!

To hear a difference in cables you MUST have the equipment for this, you will not hear much on home theater gear don't worry esh516, one day they will ( BELEIVE )

One such piece of equipment, and its importance should not be underestimated, is the aluminum foil hat. ;-)
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post #93 of 112 Old 04-07-2013, 07:25 PM
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I respect your beliefs,

No you don't.

You're calling science BS because you're not educated enough to understand it...that 's not respect, it's ignorance.
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post #94 of 112 Old 04-08-2013, 02:57 PM
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No you don't.

You're calling science BS because you're not educated enough to understand it...that 's not respect, it's ignorance.

I'm not saying science is b.s...I'm saying its flawed!
If you guys ever get out into the real hi-fi world you will see a majority of audiophiles believe in the cable
Upgrades and would not ever use some cheap cables,power cords etc on there hi-end gear..I'm not bashing your beliefs.. I'm just not in my lifetime gonna believe cables do not matter..just for fun,last week I pulled all my hi-end cables and put in no-name cheap 20$ cables
Let's just say...they did not last half way thru steely Dans greatest hits...the soundstage collapsed, the depth of the music was not there..could not even hear the snapping in the background..wth?.. Once I put back in my real cables....ahhhh. Heaven!
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post #95 of 112 Old 04-08-2013, 03:29 PM
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Originally Posted by MrAcoustat View Post

To hear a difference in cables you MUST have the equipment for this, you will not hear much on home theater gear don't worry esh516, one day they will ( BELIEVE )

"Your Majesty," the prime minister said, "we have a request for you. The people have found out about this extraordinary fabric and they are anxious to see you in your new suit." The Emperor was doubtful showing himself naked to the people, but then he abandoned his fears. After all, no one would know about it except the ignorant and the incompetent.

"All right," he said. "I will grant the people this privilege." He summoned his carriage and the ceremonial parade was formed. A group of dignitaries walked at the very front of the procession and anxiously scrutinized the faces of the people in the street. All the people had gathered in the main square, pushing and shoving to get a better look. An applause welcomed the regal procession. Everyone wanted to know how stupid or incompetent his or her neighbor was but, as the Emperor passed, a strange murmur rose from the crowd.

Everyone said, loud enough for the others to hear: "Look at the Emperor's new clothes. They're beautiful!"

"What a marvellous train!"

"And the colors! The colors of that beautiful fabric! I have never seen anything like it in my life!" They all tried to conceal their disappointment at not being able to see the clothes, and since nobody was willing to admit his own stupidity and incompetence, they all behaved as the two scoundrels had predicted.

A child, however, who had no important job and could only see things as his eyes showed them to him, went up to the carriage.

"The Emperor is naked," he said.

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post #96 of 112 Old 04-08-2013, 03:29 PM
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I'm saying its flawed!

..and we're saying that your 'religion' is flawed. You offer no evidence other than "because I say so"....most children grow out of this form of 'debate' by the time they're 10.
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If you guys ever get out into the real hi-fi world you will see a majority of audiophiles believe in the cable

If you ever learn the basics of electronics, you'd see how foolish these 'audiophiles' actually are. If you ever get out into the real world of television and music production, you'd be very surprised by the 'cheap' cables in use. Conductors are well understood, and have been for decades...educate yourself.
I think you'd have an aneurism if you ever realized that most sound/video has traveled through devices called semiconductors....try to wrap your head around that for a change.

I asked you in another tread what you thought of the 'cheap' cables used to make the recordings you love so much, you couldn't answer.

"Cheap" cables are used to transmit huge amounts of data to your home and around the world, your over expensive "jewelry" cables you connect to them don't actually improve anything.

Your constant derision of scientific fact just proves that you're unwilling to educate yourself.
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post #97 of 112 Old 04-08-2013, 03:49 PM
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I'm not saying science is b.s...I'm saying its flawed!

Obviously we have only flawed understandings of everything including audio cables, but there is good reason to believe that the flaws in the scientific view of audio cables aren't that significant. Our understanding of cables is highly predictive of their measured performance. Their measured performance is highly predictive of reliable listening tests involving cables. It really doesn't get a lot better than that!
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If you guys ever get out into the real hi-fi world you will see a majority of audiophiles believe in the cable upgrades and would not ever use some cheap cables,power cords etc on there hi-end gear..

I suspect that you have in your own mind defined "The real hifi world" as a place where the majority of audiophiles believe in the cable upgrades and would not ever use some cheap cables, power cords etc., on their hi-end gear..

How do you know whether or not that sort of thinking represents the actual majority of the marketplace or the minority of the marketplace? Do you have reliable sales figures for both kinds of (specialty and commodity) cables?

At one time (maybe 8 years ago) I knew some hard facts about this, and they suggested that the specialty audio marketplace was a only tiny fraction of the marketplace for audio gear in general. There have been huge shifts in the marketplace since then, but their direction suggests to me that high end audio ain't the business that it was 10 years ago.

Do you have any reliable numbers to back yourself up with?

You might want to question yourself about why you believe what you believe. Might it be possible that your thinking is excessively biased by the sources of information that you immerse yourself in and that those sources are inflating their presence in order to sell more product?
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post #98 of 112 Old 04-08-2013, 03:58 PM
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Hi Esh,
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Originally Posted by esh516 View Post

.. I'm just not in my lifetime gonna believe cables do not matter..
Yes, cables do matter. Expensive cables certainly look better than cheap cables, and well made cables do last longer, but electrically, they are almost all identical.

As an engineer that has spent 30 years sending data down transmission lines, I can say that it is difficult to make a cable that sounds worse than a well designed one. It is near impossible to make one that sounds better. Wires are wires, electrons are electrons, and the interaction of the two is completely understood. What matters is resistance, inductance and capacitance, and even then, only by marginal amounts with regards to our audio signals. Those that sell "oxygen free", "broken-in", "cryogenic", "pure" and other purported improvements are simply taking advantage of the uninformed.
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post #99 of 112 Old 04-09-2013, 03:19 AM
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I have a friend who does all of the live recording for a band everyone in this thread has heard of. Everything running to and between his equipment is made by himself out of standard cable. The high end cables given the band each year by manufacturers all go to charity for resale.

Engineers know there is no difference. Consumers are led to believe there is one. Neither is wrong I suppose, but only one is right smile.gif

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post #100 of 112 Old 04-09-2013, 04:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Nethawk View Post

I have a friend who does all of the live recording for a band everyone in this thread has heard of. Everything running to and between his equipment is made by himself out of standard cable. The high end cables given the band each year by manufacturers all go to charity for resale.

Engineers know there is no difference. Consumers are led to believe there is one. Neither is wrong I suppose, but only one is right smile.gif

I also do a lot of recording and live sound. Cables used on stage for live sound take a beating so I have had to repair a lot of cables. When I build cables I use Neutrik connectors and various kinds of high quality cable such as Canare, Gotham and Belden, but the reason is durability and usability. The SQ with any good cable is always the same.

When expensive high end cables have fallen into my hands I have also sold them off, but the charity receiving the proceeds is me! Not that I'm against charity but frankly most of the value I provide to charity is payment in kind.

Based on my experience with repairing cables I find that some high end cables are pretty disastrous from a build quality standpoint, but most are really pretty good. Most of the time Monster cables that are being closed out turn out to be pretty good deals when sold at commodity cable prices. They are no worse than an average cable, build quality wise. However, they may lack a little compared to a really well-built cable.
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post #101 of 112 Old 04-09-2013, 02:47 PM
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Originally Posted by esh516 View Post

Well your right..I have been spending too much time here spinning my wheels,when I could have been spending that time listening to music!.. Its not that I am trying to make you a believer,I'm not,we all have our own opinions on this topic,but never in my 50 yrs have I come across this many people that do not believe in good cables,even parasound was using straight wire interconnects & power cords at c.e.s. this year!... I respect your beliefs, I just do not at all in a million yrs believe in them..my cables ..yes all of them,have been a great upgrade in my system. Just enjoy the music!.... With whatever cables you use!

So what exactly is a "good" cable in your view. What characteristics are needed for good transmission of analog and digital signals. Let's leave out physical appearance because that has no bearing on how the energy is transmitted through the cable.

Again, what makes a "good" cable in your opinion?

Is it the price? rolleyes.gif

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post #102 of 112 Old 04-10-2013, 10:06 PM
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I admit I can see how there is a "possibility" that better analog cables could improve the sound. Better construction, thicker gauge. Better Digital cables OTOH is pure hogwash, unless you just want them more durable. Either the information or timing, or both would have be destroyed by thecable, and how is that possible in a properly constructed and gauged conductor?
I used to spend a lot of time in Audiogon forums, and still go there fairly often. There is some great information in there. But I witnessed one LONG discussion/argument over which AC receptacles sounded best! Plain Hospital-grade. or cryo treated? Give me a freaking break! Audiophile fuses? Rhodium banana or spade lugs? At what point do you just to say? "WTH"?
These products are sold purely because someone will buy them. Bragging rights, mine is bigger than yours.
Enough said.
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post #103 of 112 Old 04-11-2013, 06:19 AM
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I admit I can see how there is a "possibility" that better analog cables could improve the sound. Better construction, thicker gauge.

The first requirement for better cables improving sound quality is evidence that baseline cables detract from sound quality.
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post #104 of 112 Old 04-11-2013, 09:19 PM
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Possibly too technical for most people, but here is a good analysis of what is actually going on during digital transmission and how to fix it:

http://lampizator.eu/LAMPIZATOR/TRANSPORT/CD_transport_DIY.html

Roughly speaking, the jitter and distortion of an optical signal will (depending on the DAC it is fed to) degrade the sound audibly, which is why the music sounds "smoother" to most people when using. Coax is YMMV in my experience. Coax SHOULD be using 75 Ohm BNC connectors and the quality of the transmission is important. I do think that paying a lot of money for a digital cable that uses RCA cables (that aren't 75 Ohm and will induce reflections in the cable which may affect the DAC) is a bit crazy IMO.

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post #105 of 112 Old 04-12-2013, 12:29 AM
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Hi Currawong,

Thanks for the link. You're right, it is too technical for most. But unfortunately, it is also dated.

It is a long read, and I must admit that I only skimmed it. But all of the distortion concerns brought up were things we worried about in the 90's, and have since put to bed. From your synopsis:
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Roughly speaking, the jitter and distortion of an optical signal will (depending on the DAC it is fed to) degrade the sound audibly . . .
This is all true, but I have bolded the key phrase that makes it no longer relevant. The optical signal in question no longer feeds the DAC.

Jitter is only detrimental to the clock the drives the DAC (or the ADC, when recording). In the 'olden' days, we used to recover the clock from the S/PDIF stream (whether optical or coax) and send it directly into the DAC. Here, clock jitter could cause issues.

Later, we would remove the jitter using phase-lock-loops. But that was adding cost, so the cheaper devices just kept the jitter.

Today, every device has an embedded DSP, and those DSP's typically include an asynchronous sample-rate converter (ASRC). The incoming S/PDIF stream is resampled to the DSP's internal clock, which drives the DAC. Now, the jitter is whatever the designer chooses it to be when she selects the DSP's clock, and you can count on it being inaudible.

We can thank HDMI for forcing this issue into solution, because the difficulty in synchronizing the recovered audio clock from HDMI is one factor that made ASRC so attractive.
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post #106 of 112 Old 04-12-2013, 12:45 AM
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Lampizator is one of those out there audiophools. I agree with Mark that the addition of an ASRC is comon as dirt these days; just look for the DACs you can buy with a WM8805 for under $100. Problem well and truly solved.
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post #107 of 112 Old 04-12-2013, 06:00 AM
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An ASRC wont necessarily fix the digital input. For all we know, a device might have a cheap clock in it for up-sampling which makes little better than what one started with. This is all stuff that is both audible and very measurable. I'm not sure, given that the guy is an actual engineer, where you get that he is an "audiophool". That page was put up long before he started selling DACs. Should I start posting graphs showing the different harmonics from the output of a DAC using different USB to S/PDIF converters?

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post #108 of 112 Old 04-12-2013, 08:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Currawong View Post

Possibly too technical for most people, but here is a good analysis of what is actually going on during digital transmission and how to fix it:

http://lampizator.eu/LAMPIZATOR/TRANSPORT/CD_transport_DIY.html

Full of false claims and misapprehensions such as:

" For example, the TOSLINK interface of red led is not fast enough. The only proper way of sending square wave this fast is AES-EBU data interface - a twisted balanced pair plus a shield in 110 Ohm line impedance and with XLR plugs and sockets."

In fact Toslink interfaces have been doing this job very well.
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Roughly speaking, the jitter and distortion of an optical signal will (depending on the DAC it is fed to) degrade the sound audibly, which is why the music sounds "smoother" to most people when using.

We've been searching for years for even just one good listening test to validate this claim. We've even challenged an ex-Microsoft vice president who has hired world-class authorities in the area of digital audio and subjective testing to no avail.

No joy.
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post #109 of 112 Old 04-12-2013, 11:23 AM
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Originally Posted by jdcrox View Post

I admit I can see how there is a "possibility" that better analog cables could improve the sound. Better construction, thicker gauge. Better Digital cables OTOH is pure hogwash, unless you just want them more durable. Either the information or timing, or both would have be destroyed by thecable, and how is that possible in a properly constructed and gauged conductor?

There are issues with digital cable quality however. As the -3bd point of AES/SPDIF is 6mhz, it must be treated like a video signal. That means true 75 ohm coax for unbalanced or 110ohm twisted pair for balanced. Using basic shielded analog audio cable for AES/SPDIF can result in errors. It all depends on the attenuation which is directly related to length. A six foot Wall Mart RCA audio cable will work fine for SPDIF on most equipment.

Now all this said, proper digital audio cable can be bought retail for less than 50cents per foot. What is really the scam are these claims of "smoother midrange", "deeper bass impact", "wider soundstage". These attributes can not be altered by a digital transmission system in either a positive or negative manner. Errors are clicks, ticks, and pops. In extreme cases the audio will be very intermittent. So if you don't hear ticks and pops during silent passages, there is no way any more expensive cable is going to make the sound better with a digital interface.

The same goes for video quality sent via HDMI. Now there are reports of much higher jitter with audio carried by HDMI interfaces. Still, if that's the case, the cable is not going to fix it. The high jitter is being caused by the circuit design. Audioquest is one of the biggest frauds in this area IMO.
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post #110 of 112 Old 04-12-2013, 12:56 PM
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Hi Currawong,
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Originally Posted by Currawong View Post

An ASRC wont necessarily fix the digital input.
But there is nothing wrong with the digital input. Clock jitter does not effect the ability to decode the data. Jitter only has a negative effect when it is allowed to clock the analog portion of the DAC, causing the digital samples to be integrated for varying amounts of time, causing the weights of some bits to be greater or less than other bits. In the rest of the signal chain, clock jitter is benign.
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For all we know, a device might have a cheap clock in it for up-sampling which makes little better than what one started with.
There is no clock that is that bad. The cheapest of oscillators don't produce enough jitter to be audible. You can measure S/PDIF clock-jitter in percent (parts-per-hundred), while the poorest crystal oscillators are measured in parts-per-million.
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. . . That page was put up long before he started selling DACs.
That's my point. Some of what he says was true, but it is no longer true. Look at the SAA7220 chip that he analyzes so thoroughly - It was released in 1985. I haven't used it in 15 years. Audio architecture has changed a lot since then.
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post #111 of 112 Old 04-12-2013, 02:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Currawong View Post

Should I start posting graphs showing the different harmonics from the output of a DAC using different USB to S/PDIF converters?

No, you should start posting the results of time synched, level matched, double blind listening tests.
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post #112 of 112 Old 04-13-2013, 03:49 PM
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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

No, you should start posting the results of time synched, level matched, double blind listening tests.

Ok, but I'll first find a DAC that has significant difference, both audibly and measurably, between its inputs. tongue.gif

Seriously, that's why I said, it depends on the DAC. I've owned both ones that sounded exactly the same to me on all inputs and ones that sounded significantly different. So I find the argument about ASRCs being cheep to be moot -- it is going to come down to how the designer implements them. So for the OP, who wont want to go about extensive research just to choose which transport method he is going to use, the simplest thing is to try both, because YMMV.

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